bmi Bid Forms combined thread
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Point taken
AnthonyCarn:
You are absoloutely correct;I should RTFQ.
Apologies.My hope is that the 'Last in first out' principle will be adhered to.
BoxcarWilhomena:
You can probably guess that I didn't have the bid form in front of me when I posted;The number I had in mind was indeed 80;but consisting of Airbus & Fokker vacancies.Sorry to be misleading.Of course this No. should really be 97 with the Boeing -> Fokker vacancies included.
It is difficult not to 'second guess' in the present climate- I was merely giving my own (partially correct) interpretation of the future fleet movements (formerly known as the 'BIG PICTURE'!)
I don't think for one minute that the final picture will look as simple as the bid form suggests-it is,apparently only the 'IDEAL' situation as far as the company is concerned,ie:minimal training and minimal redundancies;=minimal cost. My only hope is that they don't try to water down the LIFO principle on the basis of cost.-They wouldn't do that------would they?!?
Regards,
Skip.rat
You are absoloutely correct;I should RTFQ.
Apologies.My hope is that the 'Last in first out' principle will be adhered to.
BoxcarWilhomena:
You can probably guess that I didn't have the bid form in front of me when I posted;The number I had in mind was indeed 80;but consisting of Airbus & Fokker vacancies.Sorry to be misleading.Of course this No. should really be 97 with the Boeing -> Fokker vacancies included.
It is difficult not to 'second guess' in the present climate- I was merely giving my own (partially correct) interpretation of the future fleet movements (formerly known as the 'BIG PICTURE'!)
I don't think for one minute that the final picture will look as simple as the bid form suggests-it is,apparently only the 'IDEAL' situation as far as the company is concerned,ie:minimal training and minimal redundancies;=minimal cost. My only hope is that they don't try to water down the LIFO principle on the basis of cost.-They wouldn't do that------would they?!?
Regards,
Skip.rat
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I'm afraid that I have to totally agree with J & J, and as I suggested to MP about a week ago, this is not the place to air the bmi dirty washing.
Let BALPA earn the 1% that we contribute and support the CC. If you're not a BALPA member then I would suggest joining as it may get a bit chilly on the outside.
If you want to complain about the issue, and I wholeheartedly agree that it's a total mess, then go to the BM_Balpa or BM_AllPilots sites and air your views there.
Pete, can I suggest that you get on with your morning fry-up!!!
Packsonflite
Let BALPA earn the 1% that we contribute and support the CC. If you're not a BALPA member then I would suggest joining as it may get a bit chilly on the outside.
If you want to complain about the issue, and I wholeheartedly agree that it's a total mess, then go to the BM_Balpa or BM_AllPilots sites and air your views there.
Pete, can I suggest that you get on with your morning fry-up!!!
Packsonflite
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Good old flappless, jumps in with both feet as usual, enlightening us all with his erudite opinion.
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Packson, J & J,
Just as you are entitled to your opinions, so are we. The big and obvious difference between this forum and the Yahoogroups is that this one is anonymous. I would suggest that folk in fear of their livelihood ( a feeling I know only too well ) are entitled to share their thoughts and experiences without spiteful carping. Oh, and if bmi has any 'dirty washing', it's the management who provided the dirt through selfishness, incompetence and an arrogant disregard for human beings.
Transmission ends.
Just as you are entitled to your opinions, so are we. The big and obvious difference between this forum and the Yahoogroups is that this one is anonymous. I would suggest that folk in fear of their livelihood ( a feeling I know only too well ) are entitled to share their thoughts and experiences without spiteful carping. Oh, and if bmi has any 'dirty washing', it's the management who provided the dirt through selfishness, incompetence and an arrogant disregard for human beings.
Transmission ends.
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"Gentlemen" please! Degenerated into fisticuffs as usual!Easy to see why people end up needing nose jobs..
Apart from these occasional skirmishes this has been really useful stuff. Pity only 12 days left to bid closure,am learning all the time. thanks everyone
Apart from these occasional skirmishes this has been really useful stuff. Pity only 12 days left to bid closure,am learning all the time. thanks everyone
Last edited by acbus1; 19th Aug 2002 at 20:01.
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Is it safe to assume (which you shouldn't in this case) that a Fokker pilot based at EMA would most definitely want to transfer to the BMIBABY 733 at EMA? Besides the benefit of maintaining your rent or mortgage, wouldn't you also be paid more on the 733 - even at BMIBABY? So, how many Fokker pilots would want to transfer to expensive London Heathrow?
What percentage of EMA-based Fokker pilots are likely to bid/tranfer to BMIBABY 733s? Or are most not senior enough to hold the positions?
Good luck to all involved! Personally, give me a A320 seat out of Heathrow and I'd be happy!!!!!!
Cheers
What percentage of EMA-based Fokker pilots are likely to bid/tranfer to BMIBABY 733s? Or are most not senior enough to hold the positions?
Good luck to all involved! Personally, give me a A320 seat out of Heathrow and I'd be happy!!!!!!
Cheers
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Trouble is not same pension at Baby so lose out big time there.Therell be one helluva kickback if they start messing with the pension to make them the same. Baby not proved it is making any profit,might go bust.If they want they can rebase you anywhere at Baby and you wont see a cent in help.
Those at EMA might risk all this for staying living there,but thats big time short sighted.But at LHR youd be risking a lot to move, and that applies mega for Cardiff
Those at EMA might risk all this for staying living there,but thats big time short sighted.But at LHR youd be risking a lot to move, and that applies mega for Cardiff
Just a numbered other
Harrison and MaxPete
With respect, gents, that is why I shell out my 1% to BALPA
They should (and are doing I am assured [hope!
] ) be getting the best legal advice for their members.
Not a member? Then join, or be left in the dark.
My take at the moment is to print a disclaimer on th back of the bid form, pointing out that it has been filled in under pressure of time, without the information required to do it, and that any bid is neither fully voluntary, nor binding.
With respect, gents, that is why I shell out my 1% to BALPA
They should (and are doing I am assured [hope!
] ) be getting the best legal advice for their members.Not a member? Then join, or be left in the dark.
My take at the moment is to print a disclaimer on th back of the bid form, pointing out that it has been filled in under pressure of time, without the information required to do it, and that any bid is neither fully voluntary, nor binding.
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Good idea Arkroyal.
Like any legal document,what you don't like you can change to suit and then youre covered.My solicitor did it big time when I bought my last house,whole pages crossed out or scribbled on!
Like any legal document,what you don't like you can change to suit and then youre covered.My solicitor did it big time when I bought my last house,whole pages crossed out or scribbled on!
Just a numbered other
Indeed acbus,
Or you can sign agreements, and simply ignore them when it suits. Plays both ways you know.
I take it you are returning all the pay rises and other benefits that BALPA members have won for you then, Harrison. And don't forget that the AFS, which you so rightly point out, is still in force, wouldn't be if BALPA hadn't negotiated it for you in the first place.
Or you can sign agreements, and simply ignore them when it suits. Plays both ways you know.
I take it you are returning all the pay rises and other benefits that BALPA members have won for you then, Harrison. And don't forget that the AFS, which you so rightly point out, is still in force, wouldn't be if BALPA hadn't negotiated it for you in the first place.
Uncle Pete
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From the thread it appears that the good work that BALPA has done in the past and continue to do is not a issue.
The issue is:- What are BALPA doing about this particular problem.
But then, according to some folk, I'm a grumpy old f**t with a chip on both shoulders who is unable to grasp the realities of life.
To those folk I suggest you come and enjoy retirement. It's the best thing since sliced bread!!
MP
P.S. Shame about my cholesterol level. I think that's how you spell it.
The issue is:- What are BALPA doing about this particular problem.
But then, according to some folk, I'm a grumpy old f**t with a chip on both shoulders who is unable to grasp the realities of life.
To those folk I suggest you come and enjoy retirement. It's the best thing since sliced bread!!
MP
P.S. Shame about my cholesterol level. I think that's how you spell it.
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Well that's it then 
JR has gone into print and set out the rules.
As expected SENIORITY rules !!
This will undoubtedly result in yet more redundancies, I fail to see how it can be avoided, despite what RH says.
It would now seem, rightly or wrongly, that a junior Airbus RHS slot will go to a more senior 737 F/O. (obviously your opinion will depend on which end of the S/L you are).
The question still outstanding is this. Can that Airbus F/O be assigned a 'baby' position, or must he first be made redundant and then OFFERED a new job at EMA or CWL.
In other words is 'baby' weaned yet or still suckling at 'Mother Midlands' AOC ?
JR has gone into print and set out the rules.
As expected SENIORITY rules !!
This will undoubtedly result in yet more redundancies, I fail to see how it can be avoided, despite what RH says.
It would now seem, rightly or wrongly, that a junior Airbus RHS slot will go to a more senior 737 F/O. (obviously your opinion will depend on which end of the S/L you are).
The question still outstanding is this. Can that Airbus F/O be assigned a 'baby' position, or must he first be made redundant and then OFFERED a new job at EMA or CWL.
In other words is 'baby' weaned yet or still suckling at 'Mother Midlands' AOC ?
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Fuji-san
Just my opinion , but it may help........
I don't see anything new in the JR letter , but maybe I'm being thick as usual . Company seniority always has been the dominant factor in these situations , as per my previous posts ( have you looked through this thread from the beginning ? ) .
A previous post by me ( page 1 ) lists all the "natural" and voluntary retirements/voluntary redundancies that I've worked out are maybe coming up , and these could avoid any/many enforced redundancies . In addition , my GUESS is that if there are any enforced redundancies , then they are going to have to offer you baby due to lack of demand . Don't see much of a loss if you try to hang onto your Airbus job for now and see what happens , but you obviously need to decide for yourself -- I'm just supplying my opinion in case it helps . ( I've learnt a lot since this thread started , but it still boils down to our own decision in the end ) . The big benefit of PPRUNE is that we can pool opinion , so what does everyone else think ?
A letter from BALPA says ( I sincerely hope they don't mind me quoting them -- its in a good cause ) "If you're junior and redundancies are back on the cards then by not bidding for bmibaby at this stage won't necessarily preclude eligibility for it at a later stage . " You'll have to ask BALPA what exactly they mean , just to be sure . If you're not in BALPA then I can only give my opinion again-- JOIN , NOW , if only for the next few months -- it won't hurt much and it could be vital to you .
The promising thing , I think , is that RH has stated that he wants to avoid compulsory redundancies , and that he will try to mitigate the effects of the changes , and I for one believe that sentiment to be true .
Hope you're still awake to have read this far --- I've rambled on a bit -- sorry !
Just my opinion , but it may help........
I don't see anything new in the JR letter , but maybe I'm being thick as usual . Company seniority always has been the dominant factor in these situations , as per my previous posts ( have you looked through this thread from the beginning ? ) .
A previous post by me ( page 1 ) lists all the "natural" and voluntary retirements/voluntary redundancies that I've worked out are maybe coming up , and these could avoid any/many enforced redundancies . In addition , my GUESS is that if there are any enforced redundancies , then they are going to have to offer you baby due to lack of demand . Don't see much of a loss if you try to hang onto your Airbus job for now and see what happens , but you obviously need to decide for yourself -- I'm just supplying my opinion in case it helps . ( I've learnt a lot since this thread started , but it still boils down to our own decision in the end ) . The big benefit of PPRUNE is that we can pool opinion , so what does everyone else think ?
A letter from BALPA says ( I sincerely hope they don't mind me quoting them -- its in a good cause ) "If you're junior and redundancies are back on the cards then by not bidding for bmibaby at this stage won't necessarily preclude eligibility for it at a later stage . " You'll have to ask BALPA what exactly they mean , just to be sure . If you're not in BALPA then I can only give my opinion again-- JOIN , NOW , if only for the next few months -- it won't hurt much and it could be vital to you .
The promising thing , I think , is that RH has stated that he wants to avoid compulsory redundancies , and that he will try to mitigate the effects of the changes , and I for one believe that sentiment to be true .
Hope you're still awake to have read this far --- I've rambled on a bit -- sorry !
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( have you looked through this thread from the beginning ? )
You have ended up discussing the topic with yourself.
Now you don't think someone was having a larff do you ?
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karaoke
I'm glad to see that you are contributing to PPRUNE so soon after registering as a new member , and all the way from India too ! Technology truly is shrinking the world in which we live !
The " awful lot " of posters to whom you refer , who's posts were removed some time after their initial posting , were precisely TWO in number . I am , in retrospect , grateful to both of them , but one in particular , for stimulating the initial growth of this thread .
To the people who generated the remaining 61 posts and 2582 viewings of this thread I say thank you all , and hope that we have helped each other to better understand an extremely complex situation to the benefit of anyone who found it confusing at first .
If anyone , or even everyone , has been " having a larf " as you put it , then I can only say that my own contribution has been carefully thought out and honestly , and I hope politely , stated , and that's all that matters to me !
I'm glad to see that you are contributing to PPRUNE so soon after registering as a new member , and all the way from India too ! Technology truly is shrinking the world in which we live !
The " awful lot " of posters to whom you refer , who's posts were removed some time after their initial posting , were precisely TWO in number . I am , in retrospect , grateful to both of them , but one in particular , for stimulating the initial growth of this thread .
To the people who generated the remaining 61 posts and 2582 viewings of this thread I say thank you all , and hope that we have helped each other to better understand an extremely complex situation to the benefit of anyone who found it confusing at first .
If anyone , or even everyone , has been " having a larf " as you put it , then I can only say that my own contribution has been carefully thought out and honestly , and I hope politely , stated , and that's all that matters to me !
Uncle Pete
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I've not seeen the JR letter but was interested to know if he was talking about company seniority or group seniority 'cos this could be a crucial issue for those near the bottom of the list.
After all, they are the cheapest to make redundant.
MP
After all, they are the cheapest to make redundant.
MP
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Maximum Pete
Please dont take this the wrong way,cos I do have a question which I dont know the answer to and you might, or anyone out there.
If the bottom of the seniority is the cheapest to make redundant,and I agree that makes sense,then why did they offer payouts to the top of the seniority last year for them to volunteer to go.
Is there a tax benefit,or are they just getting rid of high earners,or cutting the pension bill or even because its the decent thing.
Whats the answer.Beats me.
Please dont take this the wrong way,cos I do have a question which I dont know the answer to and you might, or anyone out there.
If the bottom of the seniority is the cheapest to make redundant,and I agree that makes sense,then why did they offer payouts to the top of the seniority last year for them to volunteer to go.
Is there a tax benefit,or are they just getting rid of high earners,or cutting the pension bill or even because its the decent thing.
Whats the answer.Beats me.
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The precedent was set at the last round of redundancies earlier this year. The last 7 F/O's on the 'List' are ex regional, and have group joining dates in 1998. They were not made redundant last time, and will not this time either. What you think of that decision will obviously depend on where you personally reside on the 'List'. My opinion is irrelevant !
I personally believe 'The Company' would rather get rid of some of the top earners to reduce the average wage bill. Some of the 55 NRD's working out their last 5 years are also set to take huge lump sums from the pension scheme, as they are rightly entitled to do. This will be reflected in next years FRS 17, someone will have to top it back up again !!
Now who do think that might be ? We already pay 10%, the maximum is 15%, not too far to go with the imagination is it ?
Anthony, Have you made up your mind yet ? Time runneth out
I personally believe 'The Company' would rather get rid of some of the top earners to reduce the average wage bill. Some of the 55 NRD's working out their last 5 years are also set to take huge lump sums from the pension scheme, as they are rightly entitled to do. This will be reflected in next years FRS 17, someone will have to top it back up again !!
Now who do think that might be ? We already pay 10%, the maximum is 15%, not too far to go with the imagination is it ?
Anthony, Have you made up your mind yet ? Time runneth out
Uncle Pete
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acbus 1
I'm the first to admit that I don't know enought about the various tax incentives, redundancy packages on offer etc etc.
Speaking from personal experience getting information regarding the amounts that you can expect to receive is like pulling teeth.
MP
I'm the first to admit that I don't know enought about the various tax incentives, redundancy packages on offer etc etc.
Speaking from personal experience getting information regarding the amounts that you can expect to receive is like pulling teeth.
MP