A fair days pay for a fair days work
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A fair days pay for a fair days work
Why is it that as airline pilots we get paid today what we were paid (numerically) 15 years ago, but of course the cost of living on this planet has gone up substantially over that time. Most self employed professionals and tradesman are paid more than us because they increase their fees in line with their expenses and the cost of living. Wage earners like train drivers get paid more than some of us because they get negotiated pay rises (or go on strike). Back then going from the military to an airline usually resulted in doubling your earnings where as now in many cases it is a pay cut. The list goes on and good luck to them all. This must be the only industry that screws employees in preference to increasing charges in response to an increase in costs.
It is about time airlines work out what a seat mile costs to produce after allowing for fair wages, a dividend to the investors and investment back into the business, then add on a suitable profit margin and charge that for the ticket.
Regretably we are surrounded by managers that seek to line their own pockets at the expence of the business, the investors and the staff (and of course some of our own that are willing to fly for food and live in the crew longe).
It would be nice to think that IFALP could make a stand otherwise bring on $200 a barrel so we can be put out of our misery.
It is about time airlines work out what a seat mile costs to produce after allowing for fair wages, a dividend to the investors and investment back into the business, then add on a suitable profit margin and charge that for the ticket.
Regretably we are surrounded by managers that seek to line their own pockets at the expence of the business, the investors and the staff (and of course some of our own that are willing to fly for food and live in the crew longe).
It would be nice to think that IFALP could make a stand otherwise bring on $200 a barrel so we can be put out of our misery.
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In other words, market forces.
What all pilots need to do (all employed people, for that matter) is to start out from the premise that they have no value whatsoever until someone comes along who is willing to pay them to do something. The value that the person has to their employer is what determines their salary, not some misguided, union-fed, utopian view of their importance on the planet.
Anyone who thinks that airlines are going to hike their prices in an ultra-competitive environment, purely to satisfy the greed of their pilots, deserves to be fitted for a strait-jacket immediately...
What all pilots need to do (all employed people, for that matter) is to start out from the premise that they have no value whatsoever until someone comes along who is willing to pay them to do something. The value that the person has to their employer is what determines their salary, not some misguided, union-fed, utopian view of their importance on the planet.
Anyone who thinks that airlines are going to hike their prices in an ultra-competitive environment, purely to satisfy the greed of their pilots, deserves to be fitted for a strait-jacket immediately...
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Remoak
It's because of people like you that our salaries are in the toilet. keep up the hard work of brainwashing our colleagues to believe that they are worthless.
start out from the premise that they have no value whatsoever until someone comes along who is willing to pay them to do something. The value that the person has to their employer is what determines their salary, not some misguided, union-fed, utopian view of their importance on the planet.
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Insomniac,
Basically Remoak has a valid point. It is a question of supply and demand in the end. However it is the union`s task to take some sort of control over this mechanism through solid CLA clauses.
This way you can control both the supply side (furlough/firing regulations etc.) and the demand side (scope clauses).
The fact that our profession is something to be proud of and something the employer should recognise as essential is an entirely other matter and (sadly) has almost nothing to do with our terms and conditions.
Basically Remoak has a valid point. It is a question of supply and demand in the end. However it is the union`s task to take some sort of control over this mechanism through solid CLA clauses.
This way you can control both the supply side (furlough/firing regulations etc.) and the demand side (scope clauses).
The fact that our profession is something to be proud of and something the employer should recognise as essential is an entirely other matter and (sadly) has almost nothing to do with our terms and conditions.
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Exit Strategy
"It would be nice to think that IFALP could make a stand otherwise bring on $200 a barrel so we can be put out of our misery."
Without straining your intellectual capacity, please tell us why you believe that people would stop flying and why commercial air travel would end at $200 per barrel.
PS: Will you stop driving your car as well?
Without straining your intellectual capacity, please tell us why you believe that people would stop flying and why commercial air travel would end at $200 per barrel.
PS: Will you stop driving your car as well?
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Insomniac
I didn't say they were worthless, I said that their value is determined by the market, not by some imaginary standard dreamed up by pilots with an over-inflated sense of their own importance.
A few years ago I was asked to do some contract flying. I didn't really want to, so I named my price - around 150% of the normal rate. To my surprise, I got it, because at the time there were very few experienced captains on that particular type. Today, I would be lucky to get 50% of the normal rate, and I'd have to go to somewhere distinctly unpleasant to even get that.
You are only worth what your value is to your employer. Any other measure of what you should be paid is a complete waste of time.
If you want more, by all means attempt to negotiate it. Let us know how you get on...
It's because of people like you that our salaries are in the toilet. keep up the hard work of brainwashing our colleagues to believe that they are worthless.
A few years ago I was asked to do some contract flying. I didn't really want to, so I named my price - around 150% of the normal rate. To my surprise, I got it, because at the time there were very few experienced captains on that particular type. Today, I would be lucky to get 50% of the normal rate, and I'd have to go to somewhere distinctly unpleasant to even get that.
You are only worth what your value is to your employer. Any other measure of what you should be paid is a complete waste of time.
If you want more, by all means attempt to negotiate it. Let us know how you get on...
Guys, you really suck at economics.
No one ever pays the value, everyone pays the price! Despite the most solemn declarations of the market fundamentalists, the two are only loosely connected.
So you can rise your value by buying ratings and line training, or you can rise your price by getting properly unionized.
If you don't have the resources to be both valuable and pricey, what would you rather be?
No one ever pays the value, everyone pays the price! Despite the most solemn declarations of the market fundamentalists, the two are only loosely connected.
So you can rise your value by buying ratings and line training, or you can rise your price by getting properly unionized.
If you don't have the resources to be both valuable and pricey, what would you rather be?
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we love what we do as we love it so much and the airline knows that we wont give up our job even though we get pay cuts, it tends to exploit. As long as there are guys who are ready to fly airplanes with salary of a bus drivers, this problem will be there.
If we love something too much it can turn on us sometime, aviation is like that.
If we love something too much it can turn on us sometime, aviation is like that.
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It's all very simple actually.
You don't get paid what your worth, you get paid what you can negotiate.
If you can't negotiate, you get paid what your employer wants to pay you.
You don't get paid what your worth, you get paid what you can negotiate.
If you can't negotiate, you get paid what your employer wants to pay you.
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Value of work and labour
I haven´t heard from a Busdriver who pays for driving the Bus.... I know Airlines who ask the Pilots to pay for flying and maintain the Licence and stay current. So the payscale is lower then the one of a Busdriver. A busdriver always thinks that Pilots are paid better until you tell him how bad some Pilots are paid and treated.
If Busdrivers of a certain community got treated badly they intent to go on strike if they are in a unionised community, if not they have to swallow it also like Pilots. I have seldom seen so many integligent people got treated badly and they keep up with it because of the excuse they love to fly. In some cases they do not love it anymore but they hope that one day they wake up and after a glass of water and a Aspirin all is over.
Should IALPA organise a World wide strike for 6 hours.... to make the public aware of what is going on behind the scene? Remember the over 10 min opening statement of Capt. Sullenberger about the wages of Aviators and how they got cutoff the grow over the past years. Did any of the beancounters had mercy and gave any Pilot body higher wages? I doubt it.
The older Pal´s in Aviation know that the Pilot skills going south. Fortunatly the liability of Airplanes gone up significantly to compensate for that. So what are you asking for? Why pay more for getting less.
I spoke often with Colleagues who do not want theire Children becoming a Pilot. One even forbidd his two Son´s to fly more then private, he was wealthy enough that they made the Licences but he made that decission more then 10 Years ago and today both of them makeing three times more then the Father as a B744 Captain and they sleep regularly in the same bed and the same time zone as well, priceless !
So quo vadis Aviation? In 7 Years and 8 months I am retireing if health let´s me flying that long. I still do not like what I do...... I love it.
Fly safe and land happy
NG
If Busdrivers of a certain community got treated badly they intent to go on strike if they are in a unionised community, if not they have to swallow it also like Pilots. I have seldom seen so many integligent people got treated badly and they keep up with it because of the excuse they love to fly. In some cases they do not love it anymore but they hope that one day they wake up and after a glass of water and a Aspirin all is over.
Should IALPA organise a World wide strike for 6 hours.... to make the public aware of what is going on behind the scene? Remember the over 10 min opening statement of Capt. Sullenberger about the wages of Aviators and how they got cutoff the grow over the past years. Did any of the beancounters had mercy and gave any Pilot body higher wages? I doubt it.
The older Pal´s in Aviation know that the Pilot skills going south. Fortunatly the liability of Airplanes gone up significantly to compensate for that. So what are you asking for? Why pay more for getting less.
I spoke often with Colleagues who do not want theire Children becoming a Pilot. One even forbidd his two Son´s to fly more then private, he was wealthy enough that they made the Licences but he made that decission more then 10 Years ago and today both of them makeing three times more then the Father as a B744 Captain and they sleep regularly in the same bed and the same time zone as well, priceless !
So quo vadis Aviation? In 7 Years and 8 months I am retireing if health let´s me flying that long. I still do not like what I do...... I love it.
Fly safe and land happy
NG
On behalf of Scratchingthesky, I spared a few toughts for those poor spanish ATCOs. Here they are, in no particular order:
- Yeeeees!
- Way to go, guys and gals!
- Show those jetpilots that wallet beats ego anytime!
- I hope that you have enough free time to spend it.
- If you don't, nevermind, you can retire early with your savings.
I just hope that story about the pay is true and not MGT propaganda.
- Yeeeees!
- Way to go, guys and gals!
- Show those jetpilots that wallet beats ego anytime!
- I hope that you have enough free time to spend it.
- If you don't, nevermind, you can retire early with your savings.
I just hope that story about the pay is true and not MGT propaganda.
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Given that they probably lose about 40% in tax and social contributions that leaves a little over 100k take home, a little more than 8000 a month.
Instead of criticism, we should be thinking more along the lines of Yeah, well that is what this /and your, job is worth.
Think not ? ask how much your dentist/accountant/solicitor earns without personal physical risk, unsocial hours, uncomfortable & physically & mentally tiring working environment, exposure to noise, hydraulic & oil fumes, cosmic radiation, lack of oxygen, dvt risk etc etc, Oh & the distinct possibility to lose their job every time they do it, never mind every 6mths a sim or medical just to add a few more traps.
Don't ask why the controllers want more, ask yourself why you have been beaten into accepting so much less.
Instead of criticism, we should be thinking more along the lines of Yeah, well that is what this /and your, job is worth.
Think not ? ask how much your dentist/accountant/solicitor earns without personal physical risk, unsocial hours, uncomfortable & physically & mentally tiring working environment, exposure to noise, hydraulic & oil fumes, cosmic radiation, lack of oxygen, dvt risk etc etc, Oh & the distinct possibility to lose their job every time they do it, never mind every 6mths a sim or medical just to add a few more traps.
Don't ask why the controllers want more, ask yourself why you have been beaten into accepting so much less.
Bus drivers get better !
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remoak - you are completely missing the point. If people had listened to your argument we would still have people in the poor house like Oliver Twist, asking for more whilst a handful of people gorged themselves on the takings. What unions do is challenge the status quo and oppose the unscrupulous and amoral thinking patterns of shameful management. They cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but they can define the parameters in which pay negotiations occur. Love them or hate them, unions have changed the face of the western world and we no longer have a society with a few disgustingly rich and miillions obscenely poor. Our managers would love a return to that period on history - my aim is to prevent that ever happening again. If you want to be a jellyfish floating in the ocean at the whim of the tide, that is up to you. I accept the oceans exist but also know I have the power to swim against the currents.
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Babylon Days !!
Once up on the time there was a wise king in babylon called Hamorabi .He looked around and saw that his kingdom need some kind of rules to make it a civilized society, every one would have fair and equal right .One of the most important laws he came up with that it is the responsibility of government or for that mater union is to protect the poor and vulnerable from the rich and powerful .That was 5000 years ago and we still live in society it called it self civilize but treat some pilots like slaves with little or no respect . Time to address the balance and have some pride in our profession .As it is I am another one who will not encourage my son to be a pilot even though I have been doing it for 29 years .
Back in the day, a pilot had to be from the sharper end of the toolbox to get sponsorship. Were that the case today, the business wouldn't be indercut by the shedloads of not so sharp kiddies willing to pay a retirement nestegg just to say, "I'm an ailine pilot".
As for modern day slavery.... come on! You pays your money and takes your choice.
CG
As for modern day slavery.... come on! You pays your money and takes your choice.
CG
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Norman Stanley Fletcher
Well said! I am sickened by reading some of the posts on here knocking unions in general and generally come from those who have never been a part of a union or have just paid their subs and treated it like their AA membership, as opposed to being involved or even understanding the issues by reading the literature distributed to them or thinking more broadly than their own self interest. This was exhibited well on the RYR/BALPA thread running some time ago.
I am not connected with aviation but when you guys get shafted, as is happening, it means that us further down the food chain are going to have to more than bend over.
To all others - You are highly trained, well educated people who are routinely given charge of not only several mill quids worth of aircraft but can cause untold damage by failure, not least to yourself. That is worth being paid well for so stand up for yourselves and do not accept the argument of "it's market forces". I realise that may be difficult when considering paying the large mortgage you could afford in better times but if do not do so you will be headed for a council house eventually. Ooops, they sold most of them didn't they?
I am not connected with aviation but when you guys get shafted, as is happening, it means that us further down the food chain are going to have to more than bend over.
To all others - You are highly trained, well educated people who are routinely given charge of not only several mill quids worth of aircraft but can cause untold damage by failure, not least to yourself. That is worth being paid well for so stand up for yourselves and do not accept the argument of "it's market forces". I realise that may be difficult when considering paying the large mortgage you could afford in better times but if do not do so you will be headed for a council house eventually. Ooops, they sold most of them didn't they?
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Norman,
Sir, as usual you are totally SPOT ON, please keep it up, you are the voice of the future if we are ever to get our profession back onto a sound footing.
Many thanks for always putting forward an excellent argument on our collective behalf
Sir, as usual you are totally SPOT ON, please keep it up, you are the voice of the future if we are ever to get our profession back onto a sound footing.
Many thanks for always putting forward an excellent argument on our collective behalf
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No amount of union representation is going to change the fact that it's still a fantastic job that will never, ever experience a shortage of wannabes, many of whom will, quite rightly, be prepared to work for a pittance or even nothing, in the short term in order to achieve the career goal of a very well paid job doing something that they absolutely love. I started out as an instructor, paid only per flying hour, and in the worst winter months I took home around £500. I then worked for a turboprop operator, earning £22,000. A pathetic salary, yes, but did I mind? Absolutely not. My employer and I were both well aware that I wasn't going to stay and that I was just using the company as a stepping stone to something better. My (lack of) loyalty and (lack of) long term value to the company were priced accordingly. It was still a great job and while I may have been paid less than a bus driver, my bus driving contemporary could look forward only to a life of driving a bus.
Now I work for a large bizjet operator. On a good day, I have a leisurely start around midday, fly somewhere hot and sunny, arrive in time for drinks at the beachside bar and then go for dinner with a great bunch of guys and girls. A bad day is not much different. I get paid around £90,000 which seems a ludicrous amount of money for doing a job that is an absolute pleasure almost every day. Would I do the same job for a third of the salary? Absolutely. Do I begrudge the Spanish ATCO earning more than me? Absolutely not. He/she works in a windowless room and doesn't have half the fun I have. And has to go home every night! I imagine that in the world of aviation, I am not alone in loving my job, and as long as there are people like me who love their jobs there are going to be loads and loads who want to do the same job so why shouldn't a manager, in a highly competitive market, consider paying bottom dollar to fill a position? It's not like competent pilots are few and far between. There are thousands and thousands of them out there - probably as many as competent bus drivers. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence and a reasonable level of education can be an airline pilot.
Those of you moaning about salaries and the erosion of terms and conditions
ought to take a step back for a moment. There are still plenty of very well paid jobs in this business and as long as they exist, there will be plenty of not so well paid, and even very badly paid, jobs a little lower down the food chain to cater for those on their way up. Talk of a minimum wage for pilots is really quite insulting to those who do a far greater service to society (social workers, probation officers?) for a fraction of the our potential pay.
Now I work for a large bizjet operator. On a good day, I have a leisurely start around midday, fly somewhere hot and sunny, arrive in time for drinks at the beachside bar and then go for dinner with a great bunch of guys and girls. A bad day is not much different. I get paid around £90,000 which seems a ludicrous amount of money for doing a job that is an absolute pleasure almost every day. Would I do the same job for a third of the salary? Absolutely. Do I begrudge the Spanish ATCO earning more than me? Absolutely not. He/she works in a windowless room and doesn't have half the fun I have. And has to go home every night! I imagine that in the world of aviation, I am not alone in loving my job, and as long as there are people like me who love their jobs there are going to be loads and loads who want to do the same job so why shouldn't a manager, in a highly competitive market, consider paying bottom dollar to fill a position? It's not like competent pilots are few and far between. There are thousands and thousands of them out there - probably as many as competent bus drivers. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence and a reasonable level of education can be an airline pilot.
Those of you moaning about salaries and the erosion of terms and conditions
ought to take a step back for a moment. There are still plenty of very well paid jobs in this business and as long as they exist, there will be plenty of not so well paid, and even very badly paid, jobs a little lower down the food chain to cater for those on their way up. Talk of a minimum wage for pilots is really quite insulting to those who do a far greater service to society (social workers, probation officers?) for a fraction of the our potential pay.
