RYANAIR thoughts
By the age of 30 some of these guys and gals have got "there", and have run out of steam. There is nothing left to strive for other than more pay for less work/ better T&Cs / less distance to walk between crewroom and a/c / better car park etc etc etc!!
Have you ever reached a goal and then thought "Now what?"
Success without fulfillment is failure. Dreams and goals are important but I believe it's who and what you become on the way to them that is more significant. Enjoy the journey!
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The "if you don't like it, bugger off" school of thought may have a place when talking about niche operators, however with FR it simply doesn't apply for the vast bulk of the pilot workforce.
Most pilots who start their career with FR will end it with FR due to the scale of it's operation. Put quite simply, there won't be enough available seats for the number of bums (in the physical sense only) who are and will be attracted to the industry.
It appears many haven't grasped this.
Most pilots who start their career with FR will end it with FR due to the scale of it's operation. Put quite simply, there won't be enough available seats for the number of bums (in the physical sense only) who are and will be attracted to the industry.
It appears many haven't grasped this.
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Any considerations towards Ez implimentation of flexicrew ?
http://www.pprune.org/5123928-post613.html
FR contract looks attractive compared to other options in the industry right now..
a fair comment from an EZ pilot laid off...
http://www.pprune.org/5126220-post641.html
and that is carrier with BALPA representation !
http://www.pprune.org/5123928-post613.html
FR contract looks attractive compared to other options in the industry right now..
a fair comment from an EZ pilot laid off...
http://www.pprune.org/5126220-post641.html
and that is carrier with BALPA representation !
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Bruce Wayne, or Susan if you prefer - I follwed your first link and gleaned this
And who is your contract with?
I think what previous posters are alluding to is that this whole degradation of T&Cs for pilots has gone too far. No matter who started it (probably a Yank) it was taken up wholeheartedly by RYR and is now spreading like wildfire. With the exception of legacy carriers, and I don't rule them out, it will spread to every airline and you who have opposed BALPA recognition will have to shoulder a great deal of the blame. It appears to me that the only self respect being enjoyed by younger guys stems from presently being employed and having a reasonable bank balance. This should not be confused with self esteem.
Your second link takes us to the problem faced by CTC guys, see above. BALPA could have no bearing on this yet all your previous postings seem to have you in the anti BALPA camp. Why? Surely it is better that a collective such as them take this issue on rather than the pilot community seperately each put their heads in the sand and hope that the axe is not going to fall on them or, more proactively, they could each get a brown tongue and hope they will be rewarded for the foul taste.
As I have stated many times, I am not a pilot, but I used to hold the profession in high regard. No longer in the case of the individualists such as you, TRSS, LHC (management surely), etc. I hold lesser and more vilified professions such as social workers or baillifs in higher regard.
To Barden & co, I take my hat off. And yes, I do wear one.
CTC are nothing but a brookfield, by another name.
I think what previous posters are alluding to is that this whole degradation of T&Cs for pilots has gone too far. No matter who started it (probably a Yank) it was taken up wholeheartedly by RYR and is now spreading like wildfire. With the exception of legacy carriers, and I don't rule them out, it will spread to every airline and you who have opposed BALPA recognition will have to shoulder a great deal of the blame. It appears to me that the only self respect being enjoyed by younger guys stems from presently being employed and having a reasonable bank balance. This should not be confused with self esteem.
Your second link takes us to the problem faced by CTC guys, see above. BALPA could have no bearing on this yet all your previous postings seem to have you in the anti BALPA camp. Why? Surely it is better that a collective such as them take this issue on rather than the pilot community seperately each put their heads in the sand and hope that the axe is not going to fall on them or, more proactively, they could each get a brown tongue and hope they will be rewarded for the foul taste.
As I have stated many times, I am not a pilot, but I used to hold the profession in high regard. No longer in the case of the individualists such as you, TRSS, LHC (management surely), etc. I hold lesser and more vilified professions such as social workers or baillifs in higher regard.
To Barden & co, I take my hat off. And yes, I do wear one.
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Cymmon, Don't give LHC too much credit, LHC aint even head of LHC, someone is pulling his strings. Similar to Andy Pandy or Flowerpotmen but more sinister in respect of aviation.
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al446
But out !!!!
You don't have the intelligence to run a decent argument, and the general feeling is that you should go back to your flight sim world, and leave the professionals to their discussions.
Ryanair voted against recognition by a large majority, and the Unionists are even now licking their wounds.
Reason in the current climate prevailed.
Some of the pilots told me that your posts and refusal to apologise did more harm to the union cause than you could imagine.
Mrs will not be pleased.
But out !!!!
You don't have the intelligence to run a decent argument, and the general feeling is that you should go back to your flight sim world, and leave the professionals to their discussions.
Ryanair voted against recognition by a large majority, and the Unionists are even now licking their wounds.
Reason in the current climate prevailed.
Some of the pilots told me that your posts and refusal to apologise did more harm to the union cause than you could imagine.
Mrs will not be pleased.
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Day dream - Thank you for your intelligently thought out and erudite reply. Strangely enough as I am looking through the threads here regarding unions there seems to be a tide turning against you. In similar manner, it appears that you are the only one with a bee in your flight cap about an apology, even going to the length of sending me an email. You will notice that I immediately jumped up and took notice.
Would yo care to enlighten me as to how many voted you as spokesperson for the feelings of the majority as in "general feeling"? So far the incoming posts to me have been supportive albeit that the senders do not want publicity, understandably so given the stance some of your ilk have demonstrated. So I will not but out (I think it should be 'butt out')
FYI, there was no vote, BALPA suspended its campaign to RYR management so there are no wounds to be licked. You would also excuse me if I treated your comments about the union cause with some suspicion, I doubt those committed to it would even speak to you if they know your identity. You are a RYR pilot aren't you and not another flight simmer?
Toodle pip
PS Mrs 446 doing well and household harmonious.
Would yo care to enlighten me as to how many voted you as spokesperson for the feelings of the majority as in "general feeling"? So far the incoming posts to me have been supportive albeit that the senders do not want publicity, understandably so given the stance some of your ilk have demonstrated. So I will not but out (I think it should be 'butt out')
FYI, there was no vote, BALPA suspended its campaign to RYR management so there are no wounds to be licked. You would also excuse me if I treated your comments about the union cause with some suspicion, I doubt those committed to it would even speak to you if they know your identity. You are a RYR pilot aren't you and not another flight simmer?
Toodle pip
PS Mrs 446 doing well and household harmonious.
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Day_Dreamer
Sorry Peter, I hadn't seen your 2nd email in which you say 'Its a pity you are so low on the brain totum pole and cant see beyond your nose' It is actually totem pole.
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al446
your post is quite interesting in that you either hold pilots in disdain, or you hold people that choose to consider varying contributing factors that result in a situation and use factual data to determine the most effective way forward in disdain.
what you seem to value are those that subscribe to your point of view without challenge.
As you have pointed out several times, you are very much a union person, however, you take the assertion of factual data, no matter how blunt it may be, pertaining to a specific issue and respond by asserting that you hold those that do not subscribe to your rigid viewpoint with disdain.
It's that sort of mentality that turns people away from unions and why management and union relationships are so confrontational.
The points i have put across so many times in so many varying methods is quite simple:
let me put it another way:
image stripped click here
Aircraft operating costs are on the rise and have been.
Aside from fuel, there are other significant factors that come into play, i am NOT give to give a dissertation on the economics of aircraft operations, contributing factors and legislative influencing factors, however.
Aside from Fuel, the next largest contributing factor for aircraft operation is maintenance reserves, which covers airframe, engines, APU and does not account for avionics upgrades subject to legislative requirement.
Crew costs are up there in the top 5 of operating costs, however, the air carrier has little ability for adjustment in the single largest factor, Fuel. We wont even consider that issue of amortisation / depreciation, lease rates.. or anything to do with the asset itself.... that is a whole other issue and could fill a book.
Likewise the implications of taxation on the asset, on the corporation, on the industry.. another issue in itself and could fill a book.
From the graph above, you will note the historical adjustment in fuel costs.
While fuel costs have grown significantly, ticket prices in real terms have dropped significantly over the same period, as has been necessary for competitive stability.
Overlay the adjustment in fuel prices with industry peaks and troughs. As prices have gone up, ticket prices come down, industry instability has come to the fore.
The erosion of T&C's in the industry is directly linked to the increase in costs that operators face, not down to one specific operator.
if you want informed debate, then have informed debate, not be derisory to those who do not subscribe to *your* point of view.
your post is quite interesting in that you either hold pilots in disdain, or you hold people that choose to consider varying contributing factors that result in a situation and use factual data to determine the most effective way forward in disdain.
what you seem to value are those that subscribe to your point of view without challenge.
As you have pointed out several times, you are very much a union person, however, you take the assertion of factual data, no matter how blunt it may be, pertaining to a specific issue and respond by asserting that you hold those that do not subscribe to your rigid viewpoint with disdain.
It's that sort of mentality that turns people away from unions and why management and union relationships are so confrontational.
The points i have put across so many times in so many varying methods is quite simple:
let me put it another way:
image stripped click hereAircraft operating costs are on the rise and have been.
Aside from fuel, there are other significant factors that come into play, i am NOT give to give a dissertation on the economics of aircraft operations, contributing factors and legislative influencing factors, however.
Aside from Fuel, the next largest contributing factor for aircraft operation is maintenance reserves, which covers airframe, engines, APU and does not account for avionics upgrades subject to legislative requirement.
Crew costs are up there in the top 5 of operating costs, however, the air carrier has little ability for adjustment in the single largest factor, Fuel. We wont even consider that issue of amortisation / depreciation, lease rates.. or anything to do with the asset itself.... that is a whole other issue and could fill a book.
Likewise the implications of taxation on the asset, on the corporation, on the industry.. another issue in itself and could fill a book.
From the graph above, you will note the historical adjustment in fuel costs.
While fuel costs have grown significantly, ticket prices in real terms have dropped significantly over the same period, as has been necessary for competitive stability.
Overlay the adjustment in fuel prices with industry peaks and troughs. As prices have gone up, ticket prices come down, industry instability has come to the fore.
The erosion of T&C's in the industry is directly linked to the increase in costs that operators face, not down to one specific operator.
if you want informed debate, then have informed debate, not be derisory to those who do not subscribe to *your* point of view.
Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 17th Aug 2009 at 12:49.
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FYI, there was no vote, BALPA suspended its campaign to RYR management so there are no wounds to be licked.
That's not a party i would want representing my best interests.
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Stick with facts........there was no vote in Ryanair regarding the recon campaign.
The presentation was that BALPA entered its campaign after being requested to do so by FR pilots..
... BALPA left the pilots that were requesting their assistance to their own devices and gave them no support ?
hmm.. doesn't sound like a group i would want to be fighting for better T*&C's for me.
How much dignity and respect is there in paying 1% of your income for representation when that representation deserts you when you ask for representation!
Or..
did BALPA listen to the requests for representation and campaign for dignity and respect and decide, in the face of overwhelming victory, to desert the pilots requesting representation !
hmm.. doesn't sound like a group i would want fighting my corner !
Or..
did BALPA enter into a campaign only to find that there wasn't the majority support for representation that they would have hoped for and performed an abrupt volte-face?
Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 17th Aug 2009 at 11:33.
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Bruce Wayne
Hi Bruce, Thanks for your response which was well considered and written without venom. As you may attest from previous exchanges we have had, I am quite happy to join debate in this way and actually prefer it. So to answer you -
I think you take my views out of context. I reserve my disdain for those who dogmatically oppose a reasoned viewpoint and will do so with lies (in the case of this thread it was the disinformation re the law that kicked me off), insults, sarcasm when not warranted, etc. What really annoys me are those whose bottom line is "You were not forced to sign the contract and if you don't like it **** off.", hardly the musings off an intellectual giant, nor indeed a rational person to my mind. I suggest that you review my postings on this thread and you will find that I have always tried to ensure that my contributions have been accurate, measured and respectful, it is only when those of opposite view drag the tone down that I will respond in kind. You may argue that I should not 'bite' but I have been arguing an anti-racist point of view in our pretty racist area for years and I've gotten used to it. It is only when I touch a nerve that they start bleating that they will report me to the mods, an empty threat so far. Perhaps I could give special mention here to Day Dreamer who has tried hassling me first on the thread then by uninvited PMs, so I told him to stop harassing me then he started by email, 2 so far. So to the above list you could add intimidation.
At the risk of labouring the point, I have no problem in meeting the challenge of those who oppose my views but let us be fighting (or arguing) like with like.
Untrue, I reserve my disdain for those whose 'factual data'deliberately distorted or rumour traded as fact, my impression of them as company place men remains. As for my viewpoint's rigidity, I am flexible to the extents of my idealogical framework, as opposed to dogmatic, but when the discussion is 'union or not' there is not a great deal of manouvre.
Unfortunately your link did not work, may be my settings following Firefox upgrade, but no matter, your points are not lost, they have been business truisms since pre biblical times however you do not mention shareholders or management costs inc eg MOL so is not a rounded picture. As an aside, RYR's business model is not set in stone and could be tweaked to find the extra towards staffing costs but that is another discussion. Without collective action there will be no brake on how low MOL will drive staff costs, therefore your wages and, by ripple effect, across the industry. You can see yourself how RYR's practices have spread to others (EZY, BMI Baby) in UK and has gained much ground in EU, it is what unfettered capitalism does. That is not a Marxist POV, I have only read Groucho, it is from observation. I have seen it in other industries and if you guys don't do something soon you may find yourselves being paid less than a lowly civil servant. Any counter to that in the form of 'won't happen' does not stand up to scrutiny.
I trust that you have not found this derisory in any way and, hopefully, informed.
your post is quite interesting in that you either hold pilots in disdain, or you hold people that choose to consider varying contributing factors that result in a situation and use factual data to determine the most effective way forward in disdain.
what you seem to value are those that subscribe to your point of view without challenge.
what you seem to value are those that subscribe to your point of view without challenge.
At the risk of labouring the point, I have no problem in meeting the challenge of those who oppose my views but let us be fighting (or arguing) like with like.
however, you take the assertion of factual data, no matter how blunt it may be, pertaining to a specific issue and respond by asserting that you hold those that do not subscribe to your rigid viewpoint with disdain.
Unfortunately your link did not work, may be my settings following Firefox upgrade, but no matter, your points are not lost, they have been business truisms since pre biblical times however you do not mention shareholders or management costs inc eg MOL so is not a rounded picture. As an aside, RYR's business model is not set in stone and could be tweaked to find the extra towards staffing costs but that is another discussion. Without collective action there will be no brake on how low MOL will drive staff costs, therefore your wages and, by ripple effect, across the industry. You can see yourself how RYR's practices have spread to others (EZY, BMI Baby) in UK and has gained much ground in EU, it is what unfettered capitalism does. That is not a Marxist POV, I have only read Groucho, it is from observation. I have seen it in other industries and if you guys don't do something soon you may find yourselves being paid less than a lowly civil servant. Any counter to that in the form of 'won't happen' does not stand up to scrutiny.
I trust that you have not found this derisory in any way and, hopefully, informed.
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al446..
when you say, in a post that was specifically addressed to me:
how can that not be taken as a personal assertion that view me personally in less regard than a social worker or bailiff ?
or
so you are specifically stating that i am a liar and dogmatically opposing a reasoned viewpoint.
On the contrary, i have set forth facts concerning the industry on a wider perspective and provided information for discussion toward the wider picture, not a myopic view of individual scenario.
When there is a wider understanding of the picture then advances can be made.
i have said it several times now, and it seems have to say it yet again.
I am licence holder as well. improvements in flight crew T&C's in the industry benefit me directly as well as any other professional pilot.
and let me re-iterate the specific words i have posted before:
"What I am not for is a union attempting to gain a wider subscriber base, for their own benefits, at the expense of its own subscriber base, with a campaign that is bordering on laughable with the premise of better T&C's for it's members in the biggest industry downturn so far."
you are citing me as dogmatically opposing a reasoned viewpoint, however, i have asserted several times some of the factors that influence T&C's directly.. which have been been met with ulterior motive accusation.
yet you have the audacity to cite me as being dogmatically opposed to reasoned viewpoint !
That is what is referred to as "projecting"
What has been a continual failure here is the lack of perception that you have been in discussion with a pilot who has 'a certain degree' of management experience. someone experienced with an appreciation of both sides of the coin, yet instead of entering into a debate on how to improve the industry, all that can be submitted is accusation and insult and assertion of ulterior motives and of being a sock.
As a representation of improvement of flight crew T&C's this thread has proved so far to be an abject failure.
There was a chance to engage in a structured debate and discussion toward how improvements in the industry could be sought, yet any factual data provided is deemed as lies and met with indignant name calling.
Can you see why there is a confrontational view toward unions?
FR's practices haven't spread to others in the industry. If you choose, there is a thread running on "worst T&C's" people have posted T&C's that make FR's look positively golden. These T&C's cover all 4 corners of the planet.
It is being driven by an industry in great turmoil, facing a significant lack of liquidity. Airlines require a vast amount of forward liquidity to survive., that forward liquidity is little available right now and what there is it comes at a price.
If you think that FR itself itself is so influential within the industry that operators from Kabul to Asia copy a specific model to erode T&C's you are must be considering that FR is some great global conspirator to drive flight crew T&C's down as part of some great mater plan. They are down because of the conditions the industry is facing right now. They will rise, but when the market conditions can support them.
T&C's have gone down as operator costs spiral ever upward and passengers demand ever lower tickets and airlines have little control in a vast amount of factors that dictate their operating costs.
Let me reiterate this point again, operator costs have been on the increase while passengers demand ever lower ticket prices.
All the airlines have to work with is the costs they directly control, it doesn't matter if it's FR, BA, EZ, KLM, AF or Big Bertha Air.
I have edited the post with the non functioning link to include a link to the image (it's also here) if you care to overlay the relative cost of air travel to that chart, you will start draw an idea of the peaks and troughs in the aviation industry and the points at which flight crews have seen a reduction in T&C's.
If you *really* gave a damn, you would not be focusing your attention on FR as a basis of the level of T&C's you would be lobbying the government for a break up of OPEC to allow oil producing countries to sell their products in a competitive market not with production and prices dictated to by a cartel.
By the way, under socialist New Labour there has been a huge increase in the amount of public servants employed at the taxpayers expense. many civil servants are on starting salaries more than a starting first office could ever hope for, with senior civil servants drawing incomes significantly higher than the private sector could sustain.
I think you take my views out of context.
I am not a pilot, but I used to hold the profession in high regard. No longer in the case of the individualists such as you, TRSS, LHC (management surely), etc. I hold lesser and more vilified professions such as social workers or baillifs in higher regard.
or
I reserve my disdain for those who dogmatically oppose a reasoned viewpoint and will do so with lies
On the contrary, i have set forth facts concerning the industry on a wider perspective and provided information for discussion toward the wider picture, not a myopic view of individual scenario.
When there is a wider understanding of the picture then advances can be made.
i have said it several times now, and it seems have to say it yet again.
I am licence holder as well. improvements in flight crew T&C's in the industry benefit me directly as well as any other professional pilot.
and let me re-iterate the specific words i have posted before:
"What I am not for is a union attempting to gain a wider subscriber base, for their own benefits, at the expense of its own subscriber base, with a campaign that is bordering on laughable with the premise of better T&C's for it's members in the biggest industry downturn so far."
you are citing me as dogmatically opposing a reasoned viewpoint, however, i have asserted several times some of the factors that influence T&C's directly.. which have been been met with ulterior motive accusation.
yet you have the audacity to cite me as being dogmatically opposed to reasoned viewpoint !
That is what is referred to as "projecting"
What has been a continual failure here is the lack of perception that you have been in discussion with a pilot who has 'a certain degree' of management experience. someone experienced with an appreciation of both sides of the coin, yet instead of entering into a debate on how to improve the industry, all that can be submitted is accusation and insult and assertion of ulterior motives and of being a sock.
As a representation of improvement of flight crew T&C's this thread has proved so far to be an abject failure.
There was a chance to engage in a structured debate and discussion toward how improvements in the industry could be sought, yet any factual data provided is deemed as lies and met with indignant name calling.
Can you see why there is a confrontational view toward unions?
FR's practices haven't spread to others in the industry. If you choose, there is a thread running on "worst T&C's" people have posted T&C's that make FR's look positively golden. These T&C's cover all 4 corners of the planet.
It is being driven by an industry in great turmoil, facing a significant lack of liquidity. Airlines require a vast amount of forward liquidity to survive., that forward liquidity is little available right now and what there is it comes at a price.
If you think that FR itself itself is so influential within the industry that operators from Kabul to Asia copy a specific model to erode T&C's you are must be considering that FR is some great global conspirator to drive flight crew T&C's down as part of some great mater plan. They are down because of the conditions the industry is facing right now. They will rise, but when the market conditions can support them.
T&C's have gone down as operator costs spiral ever upward and passengers demand ever lower tickets and airlines have little control in a vast amount of factors that dictate their operating costs.
Let me reiterate this point again, operator costs have been on the increase while passengers demand ever lower ticket prices.
All the airlines have to work with is the costs they directly control, it doesn't matter if it's FR, BA, EZ, KLM, AF or Big Bertha Air.
I have edited the post with the non functioning link to include a link to the image (it's also here) if you care to overlay the relative cost of air travel to that chart, you will start draw an idea of the peaks and troughs in the aviation industry and the points at which flight crews have seen a reduction in T&C's.
If you *really* gave a damn, you would not be focusing your attention on FR as a basis of the level of T&C's you would be lobbying the government for a break up of OPEC to allow oil producing countries to sell their products in a competitive market not with production and prices dictated to by a cartel.
By the way, under socialist New Labour there has been a huge increase in the amount of public servants employed at the taxpayers expense. many civil servants are on starting salaries more than a starting first office could ever hope for, with senior civil servants drawing incomes significantly higher than the private sector could sustain.
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Bruce Wayne, I have to disagree with your analysis. I am a pilot and therefore will hopefully be given more of a hearing than al446. Your innacurate analysis of the debate over easyJet's temporary contracts dispute does you no favours. I would encourage anyone with a mind to find the truth to read the whole thread and not just a few comments by one or two contributors.
Taken as a whole, the work of BALPA has been magnificent at easyJet - as a consequence we are still doing well in the biggest recession to hit the industry for a generation. The tragedy for Ryanair pilots is that they were influenced by management intimidation and the words of Lord Haw Haw himself, Leo Hairy-Camel. William Joyce (Lord Haw Haw) was a magnificent orator, just like Leo is a magnificent writer. However, Joyce like Leo was utterly wrong and backed the wrong horse very spectacularly. I am often found defending pilots on these boards, but I am forced to hang my head in shame at the Ryanair pilots' choice in this case. You have surrendered your lives to MoL, who will kick you to pieces while laughing all the way to the bank. I will never understand the lack of backbone shown, but I fully understand the consequences of your choices. Alas, in the coming days you will too.
Taken as a whole, the work of BALPA has been magnificent at easyJet - as a consequence we are still doing well in the biggest recession to hit the industry for a generation. The tragedy for Ryanair pilots is that they were influenced by management intimidation and the words of Lord Haw Haw himself, Leo Hairy-Camel. William Joyce (Lord Haw Haw) was a magnificent orator, just like Leo is a magnificent writer. However, Joyce like Leo was utterly wrong and backed the wrong horse very spectacularly. I am often found defending pilots on these boards, but I am forced to hang my head in shame at the Ryanair pilots' choice in this case. You have surrendered your lives to MoL, who will kick you to pieces while laughing all the way to the bank. I will never understand the lack of backbone shown, but I fully understand the consequences of your choices. Alas, in the coming days you will too.
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NSF
my analysis of the debate over EZ temp contracts ?
in which alternate reality was that exactly.
and for the record given more than a hearing than al446 ?
I think you will find that al446 and i have actually been having a fair degree of discussion or is that huge ass post just before yours not addressed to al446, nor his post addressed to me ?
I provided the links directly relate to two posts made concerning the matters of that thread, it's up to anyone who chooses to read them to update themselves on the thread in full and draw their own conclusions.
or are you here because Doug the Head right in assertion in this post here
yet AGAIN.. let me reiterate .....
I am licence holder as well. improvements in flight crew T&C's in the industry benefit me directly as well as any other professional pilot.
and let me re-iterate the specific words i have posted before:
"What I am not for is a union attempting to gain a wider subscriber base, for their own benefits, at the expense of its own subscriber base, with a campaign that is bordering on laughable with the premise of better T&C's for it's members in the biggest industry downturn so far."
my analysis of the debate over EZ temp contracts ?
in which alternate reality was that exactly.
and for the record given more than a hearing than al446 ?
I think you will find that al446 and i have actually been having a fair degree of discussion or is that huge ass post just before yours not addressed to al446, nor his post addressed to me ?
I provided the links directly relate to two posts made concerning the matters of that thread, it's up to anyone who chooses to read them to update themselves on the thread in full and draw their own conclusions.
or are you here because Doug the Head right in assertion in this post here
yet AGAIN.. let me reiterate .....
I am licence holder as well. improvements in flight crew T&C's in the industry benefit me directly as well as any other professional pilot.
and let me re-iterate the specific words i have posted before:
"What I am not for is a union attempting to gain a wider subscriber base, for their own benefits, at the expense of its own subscriber base, with a campaign that is bordering on laughable with the premise of better T&C's for it's members in the biggest industry downturn so far."
Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 17th Aug 2009 at 14:47.
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NSF, Thank you for your contribution, and very well said. I would take up one point of disagreement when you say
He couldn't even get a job on the Beano.
just like Leo is a magnificent writer.
Join Date: Jul 2008
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you see al446,
this is what i find laughable..
i have posted several times various data pertaining to the specific issues that relate to the degradation of T&C's within the industry.
The result of this has not been any informed debate or discussion toward how these affect T&C's nor methods in which they could be addressed, instead it has been responded to by derision and ultimately 'table thumping' over BALPA being the saviour of the industry.
Any post that supports BALPA membership is met by you, being pro union, with applause and support, yet there is no discussion toward the actual issues that affect rising costs of aircraft operation, the continual demand for lower prices and the affect this has toward lower T&C's in the overall view.
Therefore, it can only be concluded by reasonable deduction that there is no interest in working toward a more stable and profitable industry, which will result in better T&C's, only that union membership is the only way in which the industry can be 'saved' and what campaign or issues the union puts forward, the timing or manner is irrelevant.
this is what i find laughable..
i have posted several times various data pertaining to the specific issues that relate to the degradation of T&C's within the industry.
The result of this has not been any informed debate or discussion toward how these affect T&C's nor methods in which they could be addressed, instead it has been responded to by derision and ultimately 'table thumping' over BALPA being the saviour of the industry.
Any post that supports BALPA membership is met by you, being pro union, with applause and support, yet there is no discussion toward the actual issues that affect rising costs of aircraft operation, the continual demand for lower prices and the affect this has toward lower T&C's in the overall view.
Therefore, it can only be concluded by reasonable deduction that there is no interest in working toward a more stable and profitable industry, which will result in better T&C's, only that union membership is the only way in which the industry can be 'saved' and what campaign or issues the union puts forward, the timing or manner is irrelevant.