Inexperienced Foreign Pilots taking Unemployed Experieneced British Pilot Jobs

[Slow Down]

I am absolutely disgusted that the inexperienced foreign pilots I work with (and they are my friends so nothing against them personally), with a major European B737 operator, are being hired by all the UK carriers over experiened British, equally qualified, pilots.

What's BALPA - the "BRITISH" Airline Pilots Assoc. - doing to protect British pilots rights to work in the UK. Is it noti ronic that at the recent BALPA conference they had an ITALIAN girl with the basic 250 hours standing up explaining how it easy it was to experienced British wannabees to get a job with Flybe in Exeter.

Do you think the Italian BALPA would have a British guy standing up in Rome explaining to experiened Italian unemployed wannabees how easy it was to get a job in Italy.

... and the french, Americans, Australians etc.

[Empty Cruise]

...yep, sure they take them just to annoy you. No professional (or financial) input in the decision-making process whatsoever .

Could you think of any reason why they'd take someone from the continent if that person was not 1) better qualified and/or 2) willing to pay for a typerating? Wouldn't make much economic or operational sense, now, would it?

Empty

[Inspector Clouseau]

Slow Down, you have a valid point. When I was doing my ATPL at Cabair there was a stream of dutch guys all coming through on a scheme funded by CTC. The selection process was not open to Brits and yet they came over here to train and then to take the top jobs. I agree that BALPA should intervene, as it is very much in our (British) interests. I recall spending 6 months attempting to get the DGAC to accept my licence, before being politely told not to bother!

[LEVC]

As non brit having worked in UK i have to say that i was not given preference over Brits, i do not think that is going a be the case, unless , as somebody pointed out ,the economics influence it (somebody paying for a TR or Line trainning), in which case we shouldn't speak about preferences based on nationality, but in money.

From my point of view Balpa should interviene in banning this practices (paying to fly in an airline) and not preveting EU pilots from working in UK.

Just don't take the easy way "putting of the foreigners",

i come from Spain, and i know quite a lot of brits working in Spain, there is about 4000 CPL pilots with no jobs in Spain , and that is no reason for me to say spanish unions should do something!!!!!!

The french case is a bit different , and i have suffered it myself (7 months to get my licence recognized), they will try to delay as much as possible you getting your licence papers straight in order to work there.
It doesn't matter if you are french or not, you must have french licence, if not they will try to mss you up
In fact , although they accepted and implemented JAR's theydo not apply them as expected, since they want you to do a validation process (JAFFCL 1.015 states Licence should be recognized without further administrative requirements, if you look on the french version this paragraph has been changed!!!!!!!, and no info on the JAA website to clarify!!!!!!!).

In this case i agree with you , Balpa should do something, but as far as i know the rest of EU countries are available for you or any other JAR licence holder to look for work.

All this crap about France should be corrected when EASA takes licensing over, but that is not going to happen next week, it will take 2 + years!!!!

[slow&low]

Think About This!!

well, I think it's just plain fair non uk pilots working in the uk or ireland... since most of (or all!!!) the low cost airlines that are screwing up the whole system and making it hell for other national companies to compete on their own SOIL... are english or irish!!!!

why shouldn't I work for a company (not that I do...I'm still stuck at my MCC...that's as far as it goes for me ...and not happy to do THAT either!!!!!)...I was saying ...

why shouldn't I work for a company
that is pretty much based in ANOTHER COUNTRY other than uk/ireland ...since my home company isn't recruiting as most of it's business has been taken off her!?!?!

whatever happened to the "cabotage law" I studied in my ATPLs?!!??!

...... please don't everyone get your panties up in a bunch for this post ! I just think everyone should be able to work anywhere they want...

and as for my comment on the low cost airlines that are screwing up the whole system... I have to correct my self :

low cost airlines created a lot of new jobs....


It is pilots who are destroying everything:

Why don't pilots STOP paying for type ratings?

why don't they take some self pride...

...we are now not-so-glorified bus drivers... DO YOU REALIZE THAT?!

pay is getting lower and conditions... like hell!!

I remember not so long ago ... 10 yrs ago... being a PILOT ... was nearly as glamorous as saying "I'm an astronaut" or a ROCK STAR!...
now...? It might impress a few girls... MAYBE!

and also not so long ago companies (at least in my coutry) used to train you from scratch ... no money asked ...

what happened ? can anyone shed some light on the subject? why do you think it's going the way it is (ie: you need a type rating even just to apply for a job?) ...who's fault is it if not of pilots?
Sure ...companies can ... and obviously WILL try to save money on EVERYTHING... but what if pilots say "no... I will not pay for a type traing ...I have spent 1000000000000000000' to become a professional pilot... NOW YOU HAVE TO PAY ME is you want me to work for you...not the other way 'round!!!"

...companies would have no pilots to recruit and WOULD HAVE TO ...for sure.... bend to pilots requests.

Just think of this!
companies have it far too easy now... pilots have become used to the fact that they must get a type rating to get a job... so airlines just sit back and enjoy watching the stream of well trained puppies sending CV's in asking to give them money!

I'm sure someone somewhere is saying :" well ...if you look at that ... when I decided to ask only for type rated pilots or pilots willing to pay for their own TR... I REALLY didn't think it was going to work ...not at all...or not THIS WELL!!!!... I'm a genius ... ah... and... PILOTS MUST BE IDIOTS AH AH AH AH" ...i'm sure he's laughing at all of us!


ok...final note ... I apologize if I offended anyone.. especially daddy's boys who paid for their TR ...and sorry for making this post so bloody long !!
It's 2.30am... that's my excuse!!
anyhow... good luck to everyone !

S

[Looooong haul]

I agree I feel that all British pilots should leave Ryanair immediately. That should only be Irish. Also let's send all the foreign pilots at Easyjet home, does not matter where their base is as long as the AOC is in the UK they should be British

Get the Brits out of EK and Cathay as well they should move home immediately!!

[european champion]

Thats the reason why we have a European Union,so that everyone can live and work in every country of EU.If England was not a part of EU which i personally believe would be the best thing for EU,then you could claim that someone is taking your job.
Also dont forget that this Italian girl and many more Europeans probably speak English fluently,do you know many English people who speak other languages fluently?

[cavortingcheetah]

I don't think that this is entirely the fault of the airlines who must, after all, move with market forces, one hopes for the benefit of all.
I know a man who knew a man who had a US ATPL. On the strength of that he acquired a Botswana ATPL. With that licence he was passed a UK ATPL and thus a JAA ticket. He has, bless his little cotton socks, been flying in Europe for years, without, as far as I know and with the possible exception of UK Air Law, ever writing a European licence examination.

The air is full of flyers with such licences. Perhaps the regulating authorities of each country, irrespective of any EU regulations, could do more to enhance job opportunity potential for their own nationals or at least make licensing considerably harder for those who fall outside the EU employment catchment? You cop the drift?

[747 Downwind]

I remember a similar post arising a year ago.. that time it was focusing on antipodians, so this time it's the continental's turn

European champion has made a wise point. The reason these sort of views are arising is essentially because of JAR and language. The U.K has the most vibrant aviation industry in Europe, arguably in the Western World. Where other industries suffered the aftermath of 9/11 for many years the U.K's industry has managed to make a slow yet steady recovery. Many European industries are suffering to find growth.. Spain is a classic, not easy to get a job.. so like there other European counterparts, come to good old Britain.

I feel language is pivotal in this dilemma.. many Irish carriers have taken on British pilots and not just FR, CityJet, Aer Araan to name a few. Scandinavian, central and southern European airlines protect their industry making the native language mandatory. All pilots have to learn English (although listening on RT youy wouldn't believe it!), whose gonna bother learning Danish unless you've got family ties.. it's eveident this partnership favours Europeans.. and that's even if I pretend the French et al would employ a British guy fluent in French.

Can't blame the Europeans.. they are just trying to earn a living. The money is better over here as well.. hence the flock of antipodians over here, they ain't doing it cos of the low crime and sunny days .

If a group of people know it is good in a certain place they will come.. just like asylum seekers risking death to get across the Channel to the U.K from France.. which is deemed a civilised developed country (although I know a few who would contest that assertion ), they wouldn't just risk it if they knew Britain was not going to be soft with them.

Thus, what to do.. well the CAA pulling out of JAR would be nice seen as it is in my opinion absolutely no use to the average British guy. Rather like the EU.. pull out of both of them, but sadly I don't think that will happen.. so we gotta put up with it

The old UK CAA license should be brought back. It was and still is highly regarded worldwide.. particularly in the far east. Loooong haul made a point about UK pilots at EK, but it is EK who choose UK pilots. We are lucky that British pilots are regarded as the best in the world, as they are in military aviation, and many foreign carriers warm to British pilots. As for Cathay Pacific, some still regard Hong Kong as British and Cathay will always be seen as quintacentially British.. God Save the Queen, many fallen heros of the skies what.

Happy job hunting
747 Downwind

[Looooong haul]

Originally Posted by 747 Downwind

Loooong haul made a point about UK pilots at EK, but it is EK who choose UK pilots. We are lucky that British pilots are regarded as the best in the world, as they are in military aviation, and many foreign carriers warm to British pilots. As for Cathay Pacific, some still regard Hong Kong as British and Cathay will always be seen as quintacentially British.. God Save the Queen, many fallen heros of the skies what.
Happy job hunting
747 Downwind

I was cynical: it is a European market, my point is that if you take the foreigners out of the UK and bring the Brits back from abroad there will be still too much pilots in the UK hence a flawed argument!

[Re-Heat]

As a part of the European Union, whose free market benefits include the liberalised air trade that has allowed the development of Low Cost airlines, enormously increased our wealth through the benefits to the financial centre in London and allowed far greater economic activity to take place, all workers are entitled to jobs across the union.

This free flow of jobs will benefit anyone whom can be (a) bothered to speak the local language, and (b) anyone prepared to move.

If another European is of sufficient ability and gains a job ahead of yourself, look not to protectionist crap, but instead to improving your own CV.

The opportunities abound.

[hotelmodemetar]

i come from Spain, and i know quite a lot of brits working in Spain, there is about 4000 CPL pilots with no jobs in Spain , and that is no reason for me to say spanish unions should do something!!!!!!

Hey, man, we are in Europe, so since you can speak the local language, there is nothing to worry about

Do you think the Italian BALPA would have a British guy standing up in Rome explaining to experiened Italian unemployed wannabees how easy it was to get a job in Italy.

At Air France, there are also NON-french pilots (from UK, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Denmark, etc...) the thing is that they are European and they are fluent in French. And "SNPL" is far more powerful than BALPA !

[cavortingcheetah]

Yes indeed. A good point, that of the semantic hurdles faced by the English.
I think that the language problem is a huge barrier to the movement of British pilots across the aviation theaters of Europe.
When I worked in sunnier climes than England, all the Italian first officers spoke quite sufficient English to ensure safe and discussive cockpit operation.
A linguistic handicap is imposed upon British schoolchildren by an education system that is both historically insular and reprehensible, the myopic vision of many parents and finally by the indifference of the islanders themselves.
England needs a seismic semasiological revolution. Perhaps future ALTP requirements should include fluency in one language and demonstrated proficiency in one other?

[Permafrost_ATPL]

why don't they take some self pride...

...we are now not-so-glorified bus drivers... DO YOU REALIZE THAT?!

pay is getting lower and conditions... like hell!!

I remember not so long ago ... 10 yrs ago... being a PILOT ... was nearly as glamorous as saying "I'm an astronaut" or a ROCK STAR!...
now...? It might impress a few girls... MAYBE!

Maybe.

But the view from the cockpit is as good as it ever was. And that's why I'm doing it.

P

[hotelmodemetar]

Maybe.

But the view from the cockpit is as good as it ever was. And that's why I'm doing it.

ahaha here is a good and professional reply
(well, it is also true that girls are as good as they ever were )

[747 Downwind]

Loooong Haul: I thought the original point focused on inexperienced European pilots gaining flightdeck positions in the U.K against their inexperienced British counterparts, of which there are many. There is not an abundance of experienced pilots in the world, let alone in the U.K. With the exception of a few circumstances EK and Cathay employ experienced ex pats. The point being there are not enough experienced pilots around to merit a move back to the U.K, just ask aviation recruiting agencies. Inexperienced guys, however, well.. and this is why people get sensitive whether morally right or not.

It is unfortunate, in this circumstance, for British people that English is the most dominant language outright.. both economically and culturally. I am only well aware of the advantages of learning other languages. Only the other day I had to speak in French to refuellers and fire service, you just can't presume everybody will speak English. In defense of JAR and European states, many Eastern European and Eastern Mediterranean airlines have employed many low houred British pilots.

Happy job hunting

[cavortingcheetah]

At the rate the jolly old world is motoring along it will not be too long err, economically speaking, you'll have to prattle along in Hindi, Mandarin, Cantonese and Szechuan.
Time perhaps for a language learning forum?