Logging F/O time as ICUS
Join Date: May 2002
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[b]Lead[b]-whatever,
Suggest you read UK GID 44 and then tell me if you think a UK co-pilot can correcly log a sector as "P1S" simply because they are the pilot flying.
These guys are logging EVERY sector where they are the pilot flying as "P1S", whether they meet the requirements for "P1S" or not, which in my experience 99.9% of the time they do not.
As I have pointed out, recruiters in other parts of the world perceive the practice as fraudulent. Since they are the ones giving out the jobs, their opinion is of some relevence.
Why do Australian employers need to hire zero-time cadets when there are plenty of experienced pilots available who already hold ATPLs?
Suggest you read UK GID 44 and then tell me if you think a UK co-pilot can correcly log a sector as "P1S" simply because they are the pilot flying.
These guys are logging EVERY sector where they are the pilot flying as "P1S", whether they meet the requirements for "P1S" or not, which in my experience 99.9% of the time they do not.
As I have pointed out, recruiters in other parts of the world perceive the practice as fraudulent. Since they are the ones giving out the jobs, their opinion is of some relevence.
Why do Australian employers need to hire zero-time cadets when there are plenty of experienced pilots available who already hold ATPLs?
Join Date: Sep 1999
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My understanding of the right to log P1/s (at least, in the UK) is that the pilot must be an ATPL holder, rated on type (or undergoing a successfully-flown type rating test), and handling the aircraft as well as making all decisions regarding how the aircraft is operated, whilst being under the supervision of the actual commander.
I see nothing fraudulent about this, since it is a recognised and accepted practice.
That having been said, the different capacities that can be entered in a logbook and how it is broken down in columns is a waste of time and is overdue for a radical overhaul.
IMHO P1/s should be flown from the left seat with a training captain in the right seat, e.g. on line training flights. I see no reason to break down logged hours into PF and PNF. In a multi-crew aircraft, everything should then be logged merely as P1 or P2.
There will always be oddities and anomalies, but I think the whole system needs more clarity, and the CAP407 logbooks also need redesigning. What, for example, is the difference between "Dual" and "P2"??
I see nothing fraudulent about this, since it is a recognised and accepted practice.
That having been said, the different capacities that can be entered in a logbook and how it is broken down in columns is a waste of time and is overdue for a radical overhaul.
IMHO P1/s should be flown from the left seat with a training captain in the right seat, e.g. on line training flights. I see no reason to break down logged hours into PF and PNF. In a multi-crew aircraft, everything should then be logged merely as P1 or P2.
There will always be oddities and anomalies, but I think the whole system needs more clarity, and the CAP407 logbooks also need redesigning. What, for example, is the difference between "Dual" and "P2"??
Amblegirl and All,
Like I said, start with ICAO Annex 1.
Having been in the business for quite a long time, I don’t know anybody with any brains, amongst recruiters who confuse “In Command” and “In Command under supervision”, or as the Kiwi’s call it, Command practice.
I have certainly never had any problem determining what a pilot’s real experience is, but I do want to always see how much hands on experience a job applicant has, and if it is all lumped into P2 or Co Pilot, then I have to take that apart.
Then there is the little matter of “Total Aeronautical Experience”, and what counts as one for one hours and what is only credited 50%.
P1, P1S and Dual are all one for one, but what is happening in Australia is that F/O’s are being told they can only claim 50%, even if they did the sector. Again, look at Annex 1.
The basic rules for logging “In command under supervision” in the UK have changed little over the years, and as long as the various columns in a log book are correctly annotated, there is no fraud.
I have noted some log books have been printed with separate P1 and P1 S or ICUS columns, this makes the record keeping a little easier, but when it comes to the totals, it all comes out the same.
Tootle pip!!
Like I said, start with ICAO Annex 1.
Having been in the business for quite a long time, I don’t know anybody with any brains, amongst recruiters who confuse “In Command” and “In Command under supervision”, or as the Kiwi’s call it, Command practice.
I have certainly never had any problem determining what a pilot’s real experience is, but I do want to always see how much hands on experience a job applicant has, and if it is all lumped into P2 or Co Pilot, then I have to take that apart.
Then there is the little matter of “Total Aeronautical Experience”, and what counts as one for one hours and what is only credited 50%.
P1, P1S and Dual are all one for one, but what is happening in Australia is that F/O’s are being told they can only claim 50%, even if they did the sector. Again, look at Annex 1.
The basic rules for logging “In command under supervision” in the UK have changed little over the years, and as long as the various columns in a log book are correctly annotated, there is no fraud.
I have noted some log books have been printed with separate P1 and P1 S or ICUS columns, this makes the record keeping a little easier, but when it comes to the totals, it all comes out the same.
Tootle pip!!
Hug monster
You asked why would someone log pf/pnf? In my company it's not unusual for a F/O to log only 2/3 landings per month therefore I use P1/s mainly to denote time as pf ie. handling (landing) pilot. It certainly isn't because I'm trying to con anyone that it's command experience because clearly it isn't.
However, I was puzzled by some of AB's comments about what constituted a P1/s sector. It's been my experience in both my current and previous companies that when it is the F/O's sector he/she makes the decisions unless the Capt. decides to override them. For example, with regard to fuel I will make a decision about what I feel is appropriate and most Captains will respect that decision. I do understand that the buck stops with the commander and so should they feel compelled to override me I accept that with good grace as being their perogative. This "role reversal" was part of my previous company's SOP and was enshrined in the Ops Manual as a way of developing the skills needed to make the transition to commander. In that respect the normal F/O duties were entirely compatible with logging P1/s.
Lastly, regarding welcome PAs by the Captain I don't mind in the slightest what they call me: F/O, co-pilot, my learned colleague, fellow aviator etc etc!
You asked why would someone log pf/pnf? In my company it's not unusual for a F/O to log only 2/3 landings per month therefore I use P1/s mainly to denote time as pf ie. handling (landing) pilot. It certainly isn't because I'm trying to con anyone that it's command experience because clearly it isn't.
However, I was puzzled by some of AB's comments about what constituted a P1/s sector. It's been my experience in both my current and previous companies that when it is the F/O's sector he/she makes the decisions unless the Capt. decides to override them. For example, with regard to fuel I will make a decision about what I feel is appropriate and most Captains will respect that decision. I do understand that the buck stops with the commander and so should they feel compelled to override me I accept that with good grace as being their perogative. This "role reversal" was part of my previous company's SOP and was enshrined in the Ops Manual as a way of developing the skills needed to make the transition to commander. In that respect the normal F/O duties were entirely compatible with logging P1/s.
Lastly, regarding welcome PAs by the Captain I don't mind in the slightest what they call me: F/O, co-pilot, my learned colleague, fellow aviator etc etc!
Richard4Dogs,
Come to think of it, it’s a 4dog night where I am right now, feels like it’s about to snow, and I would say moderate to severe icing from 4000 ft, from where I am sitting. And sitting I will stay, not a nice day for flying.
Would love to oblige, but ICAO does not make anything available easily, I only have a hard copy of Annex 1, with no ability to scan it in, and in any event, it would appear to be copyright.
Sorry ‘bout that.
Tootle pip !!
Come to think of it, it’s a 4dog night where I am right now, feels like it’s about to snow, and I would say moderate to severe icing from 4000 ft, from where I am sitting. And sitting I will stay, not a nice day for flying.
Would love to oblige, but ICAO does not make anything available easily, I only have a hard copy of Annex 1, with no ability to scan it in, and in any event, it would appear to be copyright.
Sorry ‘bout that.
Tootle pip !!
