morse shmorse
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Well WWW, I guess that we'll just have to agree...to disagree.
Still think that basic FMC/FMS theory (as in what the "box" can/cannot do for the pilot) would be far more practical for the younger guys, especially those that are headed for public transport operations.
The JAA (CAA) reminds me of the guy that, when asked what time it was, described the inner workings of a clock.
Still think that basic FMC/FMS theory (as in what the "box" can/cannot do for the pilot) would be far more practical for the younger guys, especially those that are headed for public transport operations.
The JAA (CAA) reminds me of the guy that, when asked what time it was, described the inner workings of a clock.
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ramsrc makes a useful point about fluency ... doesn't matter whether we are talking about learning morse, touch typing, another language, or whatever .... until we get to the stage of bypassing the internalised translation process step, fluency, confidence, and speed cannot be obtained ..
As to whether we should all be umpteen wpm fluent in morse is a moot point .. but, having learnt it years ago and got to a basically comfortable competence, it does worry me just a little to see IFR pilots having to look up the dits and dahs on a chart to check the ident for a particular aid ..
As to whether we should all be umpteen wpm fluent in morse is a moot point .. but, having learnt it years ago and got to a basically comfortable competence, it does worry me just a little to see IFR pilots having to look up the dits and dahs on a chart to check the ident for a particular aid ..
WWW
I do have to agree with 411 as far as the level of proficiency
needed on Morse code. I however cannot agree with his manner. Not all on this side are like him.
I am in complete agreement with you, it is easy to twist in the wrong freq on a navaid, I have done it as have most pilots. I back it up by listening and matching what I hear with what is on the chart.
As I live near the border with Mexico, my Spanish is pretty good. It is however a second language, and I make errors. Morse code is a second language for pilots. In the heat of battle, you might hear what you want to hear, rather than whats being transmitted. This is why I match it as its playing to see whats on the chart.
Despite having memorized all things LAX, I still pull out the arrival/DP/appch chart, etc. I am in and out of there 2 to 3 times a day, but I still verify what I am doing against them as opposed to memory.
I do have to agree with 411 as far as the level of proficiency
needed on Morse code. I however cannot agree with his manner. Not all on this side are like him.
I am in complete agreement with you, it is easy to twist in the wrong freq on a navaid, I have done it as have most pilots. I back it up by listening and matching what I hear with what is on the chart.
As I live near the border with Mexico, my Spanish is pretty good. It is however a second language, and I make errors. Morse code is a second language for pilots. In the heat of battle, you might hear what you want to hear, rather than whats being transmitted. This is why I match it as its playing to see whats on the chart.
Despite having memorized all things LAX, I still pull out the arrival/DP/appch chart, etc. I am in and out of there 2 to 3 times a day, but I still verify what I am doing against them as opposed to memory.
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Well West Coast, if you did not have that arrival/departure chart out, and a check airman or FAA inspector noticed....you would likely find your license suspended...and for a very good reason. Several years ago, noticed that the co-pilot did not have his chart in plain sight...so I sent him back to the sim...for retraining...and I did the sim....he was not a happy camper, but he learned a valuable lesson...in addition to learning not to be a smart a@@.
I personally believe in being very hard with these guys.. new guys must learn how to do it right from day one...otherwise big time trouble lies ahead.
I personally believe in being very hard with these guys.. new guys must learn how to do it right from day one...otherwise big time trouble lies ahead.
411A - a spectacular illustration of appallingly poor CRM.
You seem to have used the Sim as a weapon of punishment - Which is wrong.
You faulted the FO and you sent him to the Sim which you ran - Which is all wrong.
I am glad my airline isn't like that!
WWW
You seem to have used the Sim as a weapon of punishment - Which is wrong.
You faulted the FO and you sent him to the Sim which you ran - Which is all wrong.
I am glad my airline isn't like that!
WWW
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Well actually, he was due anyway, I just moved it up two weeks. This particular fellow was one of the 1500 hour "know it all" co-pilots that Captains run into from time to time. I did his initial line training as well, and he took longer than others in the program, but the company stuck with him because they felt he had potential.
If it had been up to me...he would have been gone after two weeks....because of a very poor attitude.
A bit off the subject, but consider this scenerio. Approaching an airport (one that is operated into many times) with one east/west runway, multiple approaches available (ILS, VOR, NDB) the courses of which overlap to a great extent. Some pilots I have noticed only have the chart available for one of the published approaches, the others stay in the binder. Now, if the ILS trips off (for whatever reason) then clearance for a VOR or NDB approach will be received, sometimes on short notice.
Those pilots that have been properly trained will have ALL the charts at the ready...for the unexpected. Some clearly have never heard of the six P's...as in...
prior planning prevents pi@@ poor performance.
Well actually, he was due anyway, I just moved it up two weeks. This particular fellow was one of the 1500 hour "know it all" co-pilots that Captains run into from time to time. I did his initial line training as well, and he took longer than others in the program, but the company stuck with him because they felt he had potential.
If it had been up to me...he would have been gone after two weeks....because of a very poor attitude.
A bit off the subject, but consider this scenerio. Approaching an airport (one that is operated into many times) with one east/west runway, multiple approaches available (ILS, VOR, NDB) the courses of which overlap to a great extent. Some pilots I have noticed only have the chart available for one of the published approaches, the others stay in the binder. Now, if the ILS trips off (for whatever reason) then clearance for a VOR or NDB approach will be received, sometimes on short notice.
Those pilots that have been properly trained will have ALL the charts at the ready...for the unexpected. Some clearly have never heard of the six P's...as in...
prior planning prevents pi@@ poor performance.
411
For one, as per my post, I do have my chart out, everytime
Second, I don't believe you. Unless you have alot of pull, and with an attitude like yours, I am sure you don't. Sending someone to the sim takes alot more than than what you have said. A couple of key strokes and you are a 747 captain, a few more and your a space shuttle commander, the net is a great place isn't it. Are you related to the gov, or to walter mitty?
Things just don't add up in your posts. You know just enough to be taken with a grain of salt, but the content of your posts screem imposter. Everyone knows of lousy captains, but your described actions in this post and others are so over the top that you could not remain on anyones seniority list. I challenge you to tell me what airline you fly for. I know many pilots at every major. If you are a task master as you describe, it wouldn't be hard to verify if you are indeed a airline pilot, or even a pilot.
For one, as per my post, I do have my chart out, everytime
Second, I don't believe you. Unless you have alot of pull, and with an attitude like yours, I am sure you don't. Sending someone to the sim takes alot more than than what you have said. A couple of key strokes and you are a 747 captain, a few more and your a space shuttle commander, the net is a great place isn't it. Are you related to the gov, or to walter mitty?
Things just don't add up in your posts. You know just enough to be taken with a grain of salt, but the content of your posts screem imposter. Everyone knows of lousy captains, but your described actions in this post and others are so over the top that you could not remain on anyones seniority list. I challenge you to tell me what airline you fly for. I know many pilots at every major. If you are a task master as you describe, it wouldn't be hard to verify if you are indeed a airline pilot, or even a pilot.
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West Coast--
Personally, I could not care less if you don't believe.
My last assignment was for a very well known charter carrier in Europe/Middle East, as Senior Check & Training Captain on the three engine wide body fleet.
Prior to that, check and training Captain in middle-eastern and south asian carriers, all heavy jet aircraft. If you have not flown overseas, you would have never heard. What makes you such an expert?
If you want my resume, you must be prepared to need my services and pay BIG bucks.
Are YOU a pilot, by any chance?
Personally, I could not care less if you don't believe.
My last assignment was for a very well known charter carrier in Europe/Middle East, as Senior Check & Training Captain on the three engine wide body fleet.
Prior to that, check and training Captain in middle-eastern and south asian carriers, all heavy jet aircraft. If you have not flown overseas, you would have never heard. What makes you such an expert?
If you want my resume, you must be prepared to need my services and pay BIG bucks.
Are YOU a pilot, by any chance?
No expert, but smart enough to throw up the BS flag when I see it.
Sorry, my jet only has two engines as opposed to your imaginary 3 holer. A 1500hr copilot...hmmm. Theyr'e called First Officers by many, not all, but most. A FO on a heavy acft, coming up on a years service, yet only having 1500 hrs, possible I suppose. We have exclusive use of our sims, we still pay over 600/hr for it. My airline has pretty deep pockets, even now. Yet we wouldn't consider blowing money like that. Two weeks later and you can terminate him on his probey ride if needed. To the best of my knowledge, a new base month cannot be established from a remedial, so nothing is gained by doing it. Kind of handy you claim to work for a foreign carrier you won't name. Makes it easy to sidestep questions. Bottom line, a sim ride isn't given to people for not having a chart out, especially when the annual is only two weeks away. 1500 hrs, coming up on his annual, must not of had much experience to begin with. Also must not have flown much over the year. Real captains take this into account when they size up the FO(copilot) The kicker is that you did his remedial sim. That is a laugh. No one, but no one is allowed to do the sim on someone they had a problem with as you described. Management just wouldn't allow it Even if by some wierd twist of the schedule you ended up assigned to it, a PROFESSIONAL pilot would excuse himself. Professional standards committee would be all over the LCA, and management would feel the heat of the union for allowing it. In a non union carrier, its an invitation to litagation
Wow, I was right. A few keystrokes and you did fly heavies.
As I read your posts, always there is something that stops me. Sometimes its the context of your message, other times its the wording you use. Taken as a whole, it leads me to believe you are a fake.
Try me, I might have heard of the airline. If not, I can find out about it online, a phone number, a point of contact. Did you fly L1011's for the guv?
Sorry, my jet only has two engines as opposed to your imaginary 3 holer. A 1500hr copilot...hmmm. Theyr'e called First Officers by many, not all, but most. A FO on a heavy acft, coming up on a years service, yet only having 1500 hrs, possible I suppose. We have exclusive use of our sims, we still pay over 600/hr for it. My airline has pretty deep pockets, even now. Yet we wouldn't consider blowing money like that. Two weeks later and you can terminate him on his probey ride if needed. To the best of my knowledge, a new base month cannot be established from a remedial, so nothing is gained by doing it. Kind of handy you claim to work for a foreign carrier you won't name. Makes it easy to sidestep questions. Bottom line, a sim ride isn't given to people for not having a chart out, especially when the annual is only two weeks away. 1500 hrs, coming up on his annual, must not of had much experience to begin with. Also must not have flown much over the year. Real captains take this into account when they size up the FO(copilot) The kicker is that you did his remedial sim. That is a laugh. No one, but no one is allowed to do the sim on someone they had a problem with as you described. Management just wouldn't allow it Even if by some wierd twist of the schedule you ended up assigned to it, a PROFESSIONAL pilot would excuse himself. Professional standards committee would be all over the LCA, and management would feel the heat of the union for allowing it. In a non union carrier, its an invitation to litagation
Wow, I was right. A few keystrokes and you did fly heavies.
As I read your posts, always there is something that stops me. Sometimes its the context of your message, other times its the wording you use. Taken as a whole, it leads me to believe you are a fake.
Try me, I might have heard of the airline. If not, I can find out about it online, a phone number, a point of contact. Did you fly L1011's for the guv?
West Coast - I agree.
How many people get a RHS in a widebody in the US with a logbook sporting a maximum of 800hrs?
Similarly you would need to be virtually the Chief Pilot to get someones sim detail brought forward and have yourself assigned to the detail.
WWW
How many people get a RHS in a widebody in the US with a logbook sporting a maximum of 800hrs?
Similarly you would need to be virtually the Chief Pilot to get someones sim detail brought forward and have yourself assigned to the detail.
WWW
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As you clearly operate in the protected world of the UK, you of course would not realise that some foreign aircarriers (not US)have now (and in the past) a need for their own nationals as pilots, and training programs are designed around just such a scenario. For example, one particular carrier in south asia found that, after the new pilot had obtained his CPL, instrument and multi-engine ratings, passed a battery of appitude tests and intensive interviews, they were deemed suitable for placement in wide-body three engine heavy jet aircraft. Systems ground school and intensive simulator details were followed by prolonged line training (200 hrs) after which the new guy was assigned as a second officer (Flight Engineer) on the aeroplane. After one year approximately, they were promoted to First Officer (co-pilot for the benefit of West Coast), sent back to the sim for a minimum of 32 hours (trained to proficiency, not a set number of hours) before being assigned to the line. Once assigned to line training, an absolute minimum of 200 hours were completed with a minimum of two line training Captains before being released for regular line flying, and then only with experienced line Captains. By the time these guys were released to the line, they had approximately 450 hours (in total) behind the pole, 200 of which were in their current machine.
You see, it is indeed possible to train new guys from third world countries (not just from the UK) to be highly proficient in their trade. Experienced training Captains are required for this exercise, and are given VERY wide latitude in their assignments. If, for example, I found that a new guy needed to be sent back to the sim (for whatever reason), then they were sent, no questions asked, period. No pilot unions got in the way, because these guys realised that the opportunity was quite special indeed.
I enjoyed these assignments...and will have another, very shortly.
It would appear that West Coast has only operated in the USA, and has little (if any) understanding or experience of what goes on with foreign aircarrier operations (quite different from the good 'ole USofA). Not everywhere are airline operations organised around labor unions, many of which have only one idea, other than higher pay. Perhaps he (or maybe a she) should broaden his horizons just a bit. Who knows, perhaps he might actually learn something....
Perish the thought.
Just to keep on the thread, these new guys had a working knowledge of morse...and this proved quite effective.
As you clearly operate in the protected world of the UK, you of course would not realise that some foreign aircarriers (not US)have now (and in the past) a need for their own nationals as pilots, and training programs are designed around just such a scenario. For example, one particular carrier in south asia found that, after the new pilot had obtained his CPL, instrument and multi-engine ratings, passed a battery of appitude tests and intensive interviews, they were deemed suitable for placement in wide-body three engine heavy jet aircraft. Systems ground school and intensive simulator details were followed by prolonged line training (200 hrs) after which the new guy was assigned as a second officer (Flight Engineer) on the aeroplane. After one year approximately, they were promoted to First Officer (co-pilot for the benefit of West Coast), sent back to the sim for a minimum of 32 hours (trained to proficiency, not a set number of hours) before being assigned to the line. Once assigned to line training, an absolute minimum of 200 hours were completed with a minimum of two line training Captains before being released for regular line flying, and then only with experienced line Captains. By the time these guys were released to the line, they had approximately 450 hours (in total) behind the pole, 200 of which were in their current machine.
You see, it is indeed possible to train new guys from third world countries (not just from the UK) to be highly proficient in their trade. Experienced training Captains are required for this exercise, and are given VERY wide latitude in their assignments. If, for example, I found that a new guy needed to be sent back to the sim (for whatever reason), then they were sent, no questions asked, period. No pilot unions got in the way, because these guys realised that the opportunity was quite special indeed.
I enjoyed these assignments...and will have another, very shortly.
It would appear that West Coast has only operated in the USA, and has little (if any) understanding or experience of what goes on with foreign aircarrier operations (quite different from the good 'ole USofA). Not everywhere are airline operations organised around labor unions, many of which have only one idea, other than higher pay. Perhaps he (or maybe a she) should broaden his horizons just a bit. Who knows, perhaps he might actually learn something....
Perish the thought.
Just to keep on the thread, these new guys had a working knowledge of morse...and this proved quite effective.
Last edited by 411A; 10th Jun 2002 at 15:55.
Go ahead and paint your picture. I said it was possible, especially
as you claim to work for a foreign carrier. Its never one thing with you 411. Its the overall picture you present. The sim thing, your attitude, your actions. A professional pilot just doesn't do the things you claim. A reputable airline wouldn't allow your antics.
Back to the morse code thing
as you claim to work for a foreign carrier. Its never one thing with you 411. Its the overall picture you present. The sim thing, your attitude, your actions. A professional pilot just doesn't do the things you claim. A reputable airline wouldn't allow your antics.
Back to the morse code thing
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Oh yes, forgot to mention, in one SE Asian carrier I worked for, there was a requirement for both the F/O and F/E to have a working knowledge of Morse....Navigators (yes, WestCoast, the astro variety) as well, seem to remember there was a test for this.
In this particular carrier, F/O's were brought directly into the RH seat on the B707....with 'round about 175 total hours, as I recall.
Sim training was followed by base training (yes WestCoast, in the aeroplane)...an absolute minimum of forty circuits were required, and proficiency needed to be demonstrated (outboard engine inop) before the new F/O was released to line training....where he was supervised by a training F/O, 5,000 agl to 5,000 agl for the first twenty sectors or so. At that point, the training F/O disappeared, and a training Captain was assigned for an additional (minimum) two hundred hours.
Training standards were tough indeed...but nearly all passed OK and are now senior 747 Captains..and this carrier is now the largest in SE Asia, and quite reputable.
Senior training Captains can do wonders for a new airline, provided they are given a free hand....and many are.
In this particular carrier, F/O's were brought directly into the RH seat on the B707....with 'round about 175 total hours, as I recall.
Sim training was followed by base training (yes WestCoast, in the aeroplane)...an absolute minimum of forty circuits were required, and proficiency needed to be demonstrated (outboard engine inop) before the new F/O was released to line training....where he was supervised by a training F/O, 5,000 agl to 5,000 agl for the first twenty sectors or so. At that point, the training F/O disappeared, and a training Captain was assigned for an additional (minimum) two hundred hours.
Training standards were tough indeed...but nearly all passed OK and are now senior 747 Captains..and this carrier is now the largest in SE Asia, and quite reputable.
Senior training Captains can do wonders for a new airline, provided they are given a free hand....and many are.
And that means what.....
All of that, if true could be drawn off the web, or second hand.
The salient point of my posts are that you are a fake. I continue to believe that.
Finished with you.
All of that, if true could be drawn off the web, or second hand.
The salient point of my posts are that you are a fake. I continue to believe that.
Finished with you.
411A - as I said:
"How many people get a RHS in a widebody in the US with a logbook sporting a maximum of 800hrs?"
Asia of course is different. Same in the Middle East.
One hears stories about tyrannical training departments in these regions from time to time. Something which your postings perpetuate.
WWW
"How many people get a RHS in a widebody in the US with a logbook sporting a maximum of 800hrs?"
Asia of course is different. Same in the Middle East.
One hears stories about tyrannical training departments in these regions from time to time. Something which your postings perpetuate.
WWW
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All airlines have training budgets.
In the past, airlines like SQ could afford to train their guys to proficiency in the aeroplane...never mind the cost, because they desperately needed the guys.... PROPERLY trained and on line, pronto.Training programs were designed, training Captains hired...to get on with the job in the minimum time possible, tyranical or not.
Now of course, the "bottom line" rules, so training is done at the minimum cost possible...and guess what, nothing much has changed. Most guys pass, a few do not...and there is nothing in that all important training budget for extra time for the guys that need it.
So, training Captains must have the attitude...shape up or ship out. Period.
'Tis a hard cruel world, ain't it?
All airlines have training budgets.
In the past, airlines like SQ could afford to train their guys to proficiency in the aeroplane...never mind the cost, because they desperately needed the guys.... PROPERLY trained and on line, pronto.Training programs were designed, training Captains hired...to get on with the job in the minimum time possible, tyranical or not.
Now of course, the "bottom line" rules, so training is done at the minimum cost possible...and guess what, nothing much has changed. Most guys pass, a few do not...and there is nothing in that all important training budget for extra time for the guys that need it.
So, training Captains must have the attitude...shape up or ship out. Period.
'Tis a hard cruel world, ain't it?
"Nothing in that all important training budget for extra time for the guys who need it"
But enough in the budget for some one to be sent to the sim for not having a chart available, and only two weeks from the annual.
You make it easy to prove my point, your a fraud.
But enough in the budget for some one to be sent to the sim for not having a chart available, and only two weeks from the annual.
You make it easy to prove my point, your a fraud.