Heavy crew flight hours logging

[Viper-NL]

Hey guys,

I need a clarification about this subject.
When you fly heavy crew (mostly 1 captain and 2 FO's) what time can be logged as co-pilot flight time?

As commander I can log the complete flight as PIC.
As cruise relieve for the commander you can log the time in the left seat as PIC.
Can a co-pilot log the whole flight as co-pilot or just the time he was in his seat behind the wheel/beside the stick?

There are different oppinions about this and I'd like to know what is the right one.

Thanks!

[captjns]

Cruise pilot as well as flight instructing is commonly excluded from applications. But anyway... time in the seat is the time logged... ands that's it. It is duly noted on the aircraft's voyage report, and or aircraft log book.

[BelArgUSA]

Ok, with your logic, how much can you then exceed 900 hrs/year.
Can you maybe log 1,800 hrs/year...?
That is, since you only log "part time".
In a few civilized nations, where FAA rules are used, the entire flight is logged.
And it is entered in the proper column of the log book. PIC, SIC etc.
As simple as that.
I used to fly at times with double crew. I have PIC time "while sleeping" too...
xxx

Happy contrails

[captjns]

Being the aircraft commander is one side of the line. You can be Pilot in command, and another captain designated as second in command. The pilot occupying the seat is the one who logs the flight time while in the seat. Duty time however, for the entire crew, is recognized from start of duty to the end of duty.

[Dan Winterland]

Under JARs, only time in the seat can be logged if not in command.

BAU, why should it be civilised logging time when asleep in the bunk? It's meaningless. Under JARs, you can only log time where you are doing your job. Don't get confused between logging time and duty hours. A 14 hour sector between Hong Kong and London may only achieve 8 hours logged, but the duty time would be the full 14 hours for flight time limitations and pay.

And I would hardly call some of the horrific times you can work under some of the FARs civilised.

[BelArgUSA]

Dan -
xxx
I acknowledge your objections.
This type of question is often from pilots "logging their first 1,000/2,000 hrs".
Or the famous "thawing" of their frozen CPL/ATPL.
I never had that problem.
xxx
Duty time is not flight time. Fully agreed.
For me, any airline, duty time are wages to be paid.
My logbook was merely a "pay" record.
xxx
I recall some USA cargo operators launching 2 full crews in a 747 from the US.
Going around the Pacific, Australia, Hongkong, and back via Alaska.
Crews took their turns, the entire flight was logged (and paid).
If resting but not asleep, a pilot would relief X seat i.e. during his meal...
xxx
Last 15 odd years I flew, I entered "one line" for all flights per month.
"JAN 200X" - 62.7 Hrs - 3 landings (of which 1 at night)
"FEB 200X" - 56.6 - 4 landings (of which 2 at night)
"MAR 200X" - 21.5 - 1 landing (1 night landing)
"APR 200X - 42.0 - 2 landings - none at night - 37.0 SIM instruction etc.
xxx
Other colleagues were even making it easier.
Month of XXX - "see company records" - provided they trusted accounting.
xxx
Funny is that there are pilots logging "hours and minutes"...
You can read they have TT 483:17' - They forgot logging the seconds.
Then it becomes TT 1,803.6 in their book.
Eventually, their C.V. becomes TT 5,700 and 1,350 PIC.
Most of old farts like me retire, and round-off hours at the nearest thousand.
xxx
And logbook...? - Mine were little pocketbooks 3 x 4 inches. One per year.
But Pprune gets forum questions "What logbook should I use".
xxx
Brgds -

Happy contrails

[wiggy]

As far as I have always understood it:

Pilot in Command/Captain gets the lot, from Out to In, regardless of the bunk.
For everybody else time in the seat = time logged, but a separate record of total flight time should be kept for the purposes of monitoring Flying Duties, fatigue, etc.....

(FWIW I always log total block time for all sectors in one of the spare logbook columns)

[LeadSled]

BelArgUSA,

Oh! for such a system as FAA for logging hours.

Unfortunately, many of us come from regulatory systems where logging every hour and minute is required by law. Any error or omission is a "strict liability criminal offense", a situation beloved of inspectors ---- (who doesn't make the occasional adding mistake??) ---- and no "dacimaal" hours allowed.

Indeed, said inspectors will spend hours listening to automatic aerodrome recorders ( used for sending the bills for landing fees) and their time stamps, and comparing them with the "official" daylight and darkness graphs, to detect the heinous criminal offense of "estimating" day and night hours ---- after all, a precise knowledge of "the end of civil twilight" or its morning equivalent, for the "relevant" day and date --- at the precise immediate latitude and longitude of the aircraft----should be at the forefront of any pilot's mind ----- shouldn't it???

All in the interests of air safety, as I am sure you will understand.After all, "they" wouldn't spend all this time on clerical errors, if it wasn't a leading cause of death and destruction.

Mind you, any civil authority that could publish a major article on accident causes, and come to the conclusion that "Pre-Flight Planning" was the leading cause of fatal accidents, is capable of anything.

Tootle pip!!

[411A]

Really quite simple.
On duty, behind the controls?
Logged.

Horizontal dozing for dollars?
NOT counted.

Bring me, as a CP, logged dozing for dollars time?
Rejected.

[varigflier]

Ok, what about time spent in the bathroom or in the back stretching your legs? Do you guys deduct that from time spent in front of the controls???

[Viper-NL]

OK, so seat time is logged time.
So the total time of flight is the time in the seat.

Thanks for the clearing up the case!