Both hands on flight controls after V1 - tradition, myth or technical fact.
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Big Red Rat teaches hands off at V1 to prevent accidental thrust lever reduction. Not for mythical reasons. Red Rat shorthaul even teach keeping hands off thrust when getting airborne - no sure why that is (apparently due to 737s autothrottles and servo reliability?)
I think good airmanship is to keep hands away at V1 - hence the discussion of thrust hold etc. After all if you suddenly need you hand back on the thrust how long does it take? 1 second?
I think good airmanship is to keep hands away at V1 - hence the discussion of thrust hold etc. After all if you suddenly need you hand back on the thrust how long does it take? 1 second?
Perfectly acceptable and good airmanship.
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Don't worry, Centaurus is from Australia...
Funny thing tradition. From the very first flight I had on a Tiger Moth to operating all types of military and civil aircraft from one to four engines, I was always taught to keep one hand on the throttle(s) for not only the entire take off run but for initial climb out. I guess throttle friction nuts were not as good those in Boeings. But never once was I tempted to snatch the power back in reflex action against a sudden noise. I guess the training of modern airline pilots must be lacking somewhere along the way if they are so twitchy as to jump with fright and pull back a throttle for no reason.
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Are you Mad
A375 or whoever you are..........if you want to stop - you grab the shiny levers and rip'em back..........grab the reverser things and jump on the brakes.........all at once...right? (sort of)
Then if you want to fly i.e. at V1 and above you need both hands on the wheel (Non-sidestick stuff) so you can hand fly and cancel any yaw-roll couple that might come your way.
Unless of course you have major muscles and can tweak the wheel one-handed with such finesse....but I suspect your muscle development is mainly between the ears?
Like I said......you must be mad or senile or both.
But be happy anyway.
Then if you want to fly i.e. at V1 and above you need both hands on the wheel (Non-sidestick stuff) so you can hand fly and cancel any yaw-roll couple that might come your way.
Unless of course you have major muscles and can tweak the wheel one-handed with such finesse....but I suspect your muscle development is mainly between the ears?
Like I said......you must be mad or senile or both.
But be happy anyway.
1. I agree with the majority that "hands off" at V1 is a good idea and stops any unwanted inappropriate reflex movement of the TLs. If you really need to do something with them after V1 (windshear, etc.), you know where they are.
2. Transferring the spare hand to the control column, if you have one, helps as you can perform a more accurate rotation. Physically, the accuracy to which you can apply a particular force is in inverse proportion to that force, so two hands are better than one in this respect.
3. It appears to be SOP in most airlines.
2. Transferring the spare hand to the control column, if you have one, helps as you can perform a more accurate rotation. Physically, the accuracy to which you can apply a particular force is in inverse proportion to that force, so two hands are better than one in this respect.
3. It appears to be SOP in most airlines.
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seems like most of the participiants of this discussions are flying aircraft where you can afford to fly with just one hand - they can discuss what to do with the other.
Aviation has been invented in the times where you needed both hands to fly, and that is during take off and landing rotation. Obviously in modern Boeings that isn't the case anymore (I'm not flying them). But it seems that it is continued as a myth - so at least you still are doing the right thing.
Dani
Aviation has been invented in the times where you needed both hands to fly, and that is during take off and landing rotation. Obviously in modern Boeings that isn't the case anymore (I'm not flying them). But it seems that it is continued as a myth - so at least you still are doing the right thing.
Dani
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Once again, I take the side of my colleague, Centaurus. IF a pilot, after passing V1, decides to reject (for whatever reason), I would submit that having one hand on the throttles or having both hands on the flight controls (notwithstanding the side-stick-controlled machines!) is not likely to be the governing issue over the resulting action.
Once again, I take the side of my colleague, Centaurus. IF a pilot, after passing V1, decides to reject ...
This scenario is not as far-fetched as it may seem. V1, rotate, lift off, one hand on thrust levers. PNF is in the act of retracting the gear. Bird comes thru windscreen - make that a big bird, say pelican-sized - whacks PF senseless. As he slumps back in seat, he hauls the thrust levers back, probably with control column coming back as well, but at the very least with aircraft at about V2 plus 5, say 10-12 degrees nose up.
Try it in the the simulator (sans pelican).
PNF will not prevent the crash, and no pelicans will be harmed in the shooting of this scene.
If you don't need both hands on the stick, at V1 at least put your spare hand on your knee and leave it there until you need to actually do something with that hand.
Modern turbine aircraft do not need the throttles guarded to prevent them vibrating back. Guarding throttles is one of those quaint throwbacks to the DC3 era. Most of us no longer do 3 pointers either, so Centauris, while I often agree with your take on flying, let this one go to the majority.
Try it in the the simulator (sans pelican).
PNF will not prevent the crash, and no pelicans will be harmed in the shooting of this scene.
If you don't need both hands on the stick, at V1 at least put your spare hand on your knee and leave it there until you need to actually do something with that hand.
Modern turbine aircraft do not need the throttles guarded to prevent them vibrating back. Guarding throttles is one of those quaint throwbacks to the DC3 era. Most of us no longer do 3 pointers either, so Centauris, while I often agree with your take on flying, let this one go to the majority.
AirRabbit,
I think the issue is more subtle. A decision to reject after V1 - fine; what taking your hand off the TLs does is guard against an unintended rejection, possibly brought about by your colleague saying "STOP!" instead of "Rotate" (has happened at least twice in my airline...) or indeed anything else that might trigger an unwanted response. IMHO we do not physically practice these sort of scenarios nearly enough to be absolutely sure what we might do under all circumstances; best not to leave it to chance, then?
If you really feel the need to do something with the TLs after V1, you still can but it will be a more deliberate action (you can still be pretty rapid if you want to).
...IF a pilot, after passing V1, decides to reject (for whatever reason)...
If you really feel the need to do something with the TLs after V1, you still can but it will be a more deliberate action (you can still be pretty rapid if you want to).
Tmbstory,
During a high-speed RTO on many jets, the autobrake is triggered by retarding the thrust levers, the spoilers by the TLs or reverse selection. If the autobrake is available, it is generally recommended that you keep it in (by not stepping on the brakes) as it's much better at bringing the aircraft to a halt and you can then concentrate on keeping it going in a straight line.
The point I was trying to make was not about what order you did things but how to prevent an undesired RTO post-V1 by moving your hand away as V1 is called...
When the Decision / Call is "Stop", the immediate action is brakes, then the thrust levers / reversers etc in quick order.
The point I was trying to make was not about what order you did things but how to prevent an undesired RTO post-V1 by moving your hand away as V1 is called...
possibly brought about by your colleague saying "STOP!" instead of "Rotate"
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At V1 I drop my hand behind the throttles on the throttle quadrant and put my pointer and index fingers against the base of the throttle levers. That way I can feel any power changes.
FO, all 100-105 lbs of her, flies with one hand. How can someone so tiny fly with one hand while guys 2-3x her weight can't?
Tailstrike avoidance? Myth IMO. I doubt the afore mentioned FO can rotate as suddenly with one hand as a 200+lbs guy can with two hands.
FO, all 100-105 lbs of her, flies with one hand. How can someone so tiny fly with one hand while guys 2-3x her weight can't?
Tailstrike avoidance? Myth IMO. I doubt the afore mentioned FO can rotate as suddenly with one hand as a 200+lbs guy can with two hands.
At V1 I drop my hand behind the throttles on the throttle quadrant and put my pointer and index fingers against the base of the throttle levers
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On T/Off on a dark moonless night with Auto thrust. I rotated the A310 with both hands on the control column and asked for gear up. As the gear retracted, No 2 engine T/Lever retarded to idle. ??? From that day on One hand on Column and One hand on T/Levers after rotation. 
Controversial, moi?
This policy by some operators of empowering the first officer to use the word "STOP" frightens the hell out of me.
Our FOs are well trained and competent. If they are not competent to call stop in the above circumstances then one would have to question their suitability to be pilots.
Our FOs are also allowed to start the engines, handle the the thrust levers, and taxy the aircraft too. They have slightly stricter landing limits than captains.
To waste time pointing out an engine failure or a control problem to a captain and then waiting for him to call stop would seem unnecessary and possibly disastrous.
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For all my military flying career I was empowered to call stop from the FE seat.
I had to un-train myself when I started flying civvy. My first sim evaluation resulted in 2 Swedish pilots and 2 Swedish instructors looking at me in amazement when I called stop on the first take off of the session. I had to laugh when they told me only the captain can call stop. From then on I had to adopt the mentality that we were above V1 at all times and call the failure rather than the action.
Just adds micro seconds to the proceedings with no added safety as I never had a captain continue after a call.
I had to un-train myself when I started flying civvy. My first sim evaluation resulted in 2 Swedish pilots and 2 Swedish instructors looking at me in amazement when I called stop on the first take off of the session. I had to laugh when they told me only the captain can call stop. From then on I had to adopt the mentality that we were above V1 at all times and call the failure rather than the action.
Just adds micro seconds to the proceedings with no added safety as I never had a captain continue after a call.
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I'm a believer in knowing what the throttle levers are doing.
http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...&airline=Tarom
Date of Accident:31 March 1995Airline:Tarom Aircraft:Airbus A310-324
At that time the auto throttles (on 'climb' mode) should have reduced power to the pre-determined climb setting on both engines. But the right power lever (no.2 engine) remained in takeoff power setting. It took the no.1 power lever 42 seconds to move to idle power. During these 42 seconds an asymmetric thrust situation developed.
http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...&airline=Tarom
Date of Accident:31 March 1995Airline:Tarom Aircraft:Airbus A310-324
At that time the auto throttles (on 'climb' mode) should have reduced power to the pre-determined climb setting on both engines. But the right power lever (no.2 engine) remained in takeoff power setting. It took the no.1 power lever 42 seconds to move to idle power. During these 42 seconds an asymmetric thrust situation developed.