After Vr, look outside or inside? (B737)

[DC-8]

Hi!

I've heard different things about what to do after Vr with the B737. Some Captains say you should continue looking outside untill the acft is airborne to feel if it's banking or not, then look inside and follow the FD. On the other hand, some of them say after Vr you should just look inside and follow the FD.

Any comments?

Thanks in advance!

[TopBunk]

I personally find it better to promptly transition to looking inside at the PFD but ignoring the flight director. I find this gives a much more accurate guide to your pitch rate and in finding the initial target attitude than looking outside. On larger aircraft pitch rate and attitude are critical to avoid tailscrapes. Once the initial target attitude is reached is the time to transition to the flight director. Some FD's do not command rotation rates and should be ignored initially.

As to roll, then again the PFD is perfectly satisfactory in that respect.

[COWPAT]

One of my many previous company's had a rather good system I think. We had a very simple table which had aircraft weight on the left and 2eng and 1 eng initial deck angle in colums on the right. Both of these deck angles were written on the bug card for every departure. At Vr, the call would be (for eg) "Rotate 13" meaning rotate to 13 degrees. After a couple of seconds the F/Ds would invariably settle down at 13 degs. In the event of an engine failure > V1 the call would be (eg) "Rotate 10, Engine failure" though personally I found it easier to look out of the window provided there was a decent visual horizon.

[mustafagander]

Beware somatographic (sp?) illusion! Ensure the ADI indicates appropriate attitude and RA increasing. This is critical at night especially when there are few ground lights in the direction of flight.

[ACMS]

what are we teaching people these days????
As PF during the t/o roll you are looking out the front and down at the airspeed. You should not simply rely on the PM to call V1 VR, but check it yourself and rotate at the correct speed. During the early part of the rotation you are still looking out the front keeping the plane straight ( especially in a X/W ) but very quickly ( around 8 degrees or so ) transition to the dials, looking to set the correct pitch attitude for your aircraft type. And as part of that you obviously are keeping the wings level during your instrument scan. ( positive roc etc )
What else could you do on a pitch black night anyway
Also it's what you must do when taking off in LWMO, when you can't see anything more that 100m or so in front of you. ( apart from white!! )
So to keep it standard, always do it the same way regardless,
Why do people make this reasonably straight forward job complicated?

[CharterJake]

I agree with ACMS !
A take-off is a visual maneuver!!! Regardless if it's in CAVOK or 125m RVR...
On the 737 the lift-off attitude is no more than 9 degrees (Classics or NG) with 2-3 degrees/sec. of rotational rate (lesser for the longer bodied -800-900) it takes about 3-4 sec. to achieve that attitude.
So it's fairly slow, plenty of time to look out especially in a X-wind and if your seat is adjusted correctly you will still have a decent amount of view from the nose at lift-off attitude. Also, the FCTM states: "DO NOT follow FD commands until AFTER lift-off..."
My two cents.... Don't forget how you used to fly an airplane before...

[RAT 5]

B738.

I go with the visual guys until 9 degrees nose up. Then the outside horizon has disappeared, and it is at this angle when the a/c stops rotating and you need a little more elevator input to keep the same rate of rotation. Better to do that inside. Pause at 15 degrees, get the gear up. The F.D will then have decided what is going on and give you correct commands.
I see many pilots rotate at the wrong rate and go immediately to the F.D pitch bar. This can cause much porpoising until lo- & behold it settles down at 15 degrees, if on a weight matched assumed temp N1%. If using a higher power setting than RTOW tables the final attitude will be nearer 17 degrees.
If you rotate too slow, the speed will be high and the F.D could command a higher attitude for a few seonds. I've seen it above 20 degrees. Never go there, but I've seen them that do, if they rotate into the F.D. The speed bleed off is rapid.

[Dani]

The key word in this topic might be "and", not or. It's called scanning, and is being learned in IFR school lesson 1.

You have to have several parameters under control, of which the most important are:

• visual cues
• wings level
• rotation speed (3°/sec)
• correct attitude
• speed
• yaw
• thrust

All these parameters cannot be monitors solely in- or outside. That's why, you have to glimps in and out.

Dani