heels on the floor?
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 801
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Centaurus
Following this observation on that occasion, I began to monitor pedal pressure more closely during normal take offs and sure enough it happened on more than a few occasions over several weeks on different pilots.
I'm sure that many seasoned simulator instructors have seen very well trained crew members "relaxing" a bit in the simulator, because, after all (at least to these few), it is "only" a simulator.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It doesn't take 'relaxing' or not flying the sim like you would a real aeroplane- I think people do handle sims just the same as the real toy. It takes heavy concentration on something else- in this case a take-off, and you don't notice that you're pressing on a brake inadvertently. How many people have to do it before it's believed it is perfectly possible to press the damn thing without being aware? And anyone can do it- long term experienced Captain or junior pilots. Just make sure if you think you are good enough never to do it yourself that better pilots than thee have been on the FM's carpet for doing just that!
Heels on the floor for me every time - it does not take a nanosecond to get full brakes on if necessary I can assure you.
I have seen too many pilots inadvertently applying just a little bit of brake on take-off with their feet off the floor without realising it.
Apart from lengthening the TORR this practice does nothing for brake and tyre wear and raises brake temperatures (especially with carbon brakes) which scarcely helps in the event of an abandoned take-off.
I have seen too many pilots inadvertently applying just a little bit of brake on take-off with their feet off the floor without realising it.
Apart from lengthening the TORR this practice does nothing for brake and tyre wear and raises brake temperatures (especially with carbon brakes) which scarcely helps in the event of an abandoned take-off.
DreamLand. Fully up on the pedals for landing in an AirBus? Why is that? Unless on a slippery limiting runway when autobrakes come into their own, I would have thought there is no need to touch the brakes until needed as the aircraft slowed down under the influence of ground spoilers and reverse thrust. Typically 60-80 knots depending on runway length of course. That said I have not flown an Air Bus.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Thailand
Posts: 942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Double trouble
While we are on the subject; what do our correspondants think to the PNF resting his/her feet on the rudder pedals during Take-off. I was told by one miscreant who flew with me recently that he was told to put his feet there in the event of and RTO!!!! If I had my steel ruler with me I would have done as my instructor in the good old RAF would have done and rapped his kneecap!
Just where do people get the idea that they should 'follow through' on the rudders during Take-off? Why not 'follow through' on the joystick/controls? Why not 'follow through' on the throttles? Why have PF/PNF at all if you are going to have your PNF 'following through' on everything I do?
My feet rest on the floor with my toes on the pedals, my PNF will have his feet firmly planted flat on the floor! period!!!
Just where do people get the idea that they should 'follow through' on the rudders during Take-off? Why not 'follow through' on the joystick/controls? Why not 'follow through' on the throttles? Why have PF/PNF at all if you are going to have your PNF 'following through' on everything I do?
My feet rest on the floor with my toes on the pedals, my PNF will have his feet firmly planted flat on the floor! period!!!
Agree. Nothing more distracting than a PNF (whether a check captain or F/O rank) "guarding" the controls. You apply corrective rudder during take off or landing and you see out of the corner of your eye the other clown's legs moving. Or more annoying when you see their hands creeping surreptiously towards the control wheel approaching the flare. Or they ever so casually rest their hands on the flap lever or MCP speed or heading knob in readiness for a lightning fast selection. Still worse someone who reaches over with his hand towards the gear lever as VR commences. I wonder if the gurus who teach CRM ever discuss these very minor irritations described here that in turn can blow up into a major "Leave the bloody lever alone until I ask for it".
Its SOP with my airline that both pilots are required to have their feet on the controls (heels on the floor) at all times during taxy, take off and landing. Guess different flight ops have different SOPs.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AirRabbit
Intruder, not to pick on your 747 sim session, but there are two issues that jump out at me. First, you sound like you’re a pretty good-sized chap and therefore probably able to “man-handle” (is there such a word as “foot-handle?”) the brakes and the rudder without too much trouble. Unfortunately, many of us are, shall I say, physically challenged in the height (and maybe not so challenged in the weight – I remember that I do have toes; saw them in the mirror just last week) department – but you know what I mean. Second, in your practice session, I would presume (yes, I know what happens when I do that, but…what the heck) that you were probably not at a runway/gross weight/pressure altitude that put you in a balanced field circumstance, and with a V1 speed of 149, rejecting at 120+ is attention getting – but not riveting. Jack up the weight, use a shorter runway, run up the temperature, and have the world disintegrate at V1 – 2 knots. Throw a reasonable crosswind in from the failed engine side and remove the “I’m-only-in-the-simulator” comfort factor and it just may be that you, too, would become a believer.
I know that my rantings are likely not going to change a career’s worth of habit patterns, but I honestly don’t know why anyone would presume that if you put your entire foot on the rudder pedal that you would be any more prone to mis-apply the brakes when making a rudder pedal input, than you would be to bank when pulling back on the yoke to rotate. You learn to not do that.
Intruder, not to pick on your 747 sim session, but there are two issues that jump out at me. First, you sound like you’re a pretty good-sized chap and therefore probably able to “man-handle” (is there such a word as “foot-handle?”) the brakes and the rudder without too much trouble. Unfortunately, many of us are, shall I say, physically challenged in the height (and maybe not so challenged in the weight – I remember that I do have toes; saw them in the mirror just last week) department – but you know what I mean. Second, in your practice session, I would presume (yes, I know what happens when I do that, but…what the heck) that you were probably not at a runway/gross weight/pressure altitude that put you in a balanced field circumstance, and with a V1 speed of 149, rejecting at 120+ is attention getting – but not riveting. Jack up the weight, use a shorter runway, run up the temperature, and have the world disintegrate at V1 – 2 knots. Throw a reasonable crosswind in from the failed engine side and remove the “I’m-only-in-the-simulator” comfort factor and it just may be that you, too, would become a believer.
I know that my rantings are likely not going to change a career’s worth of habit patterns, but I honestly don’t know why anyone would presume that if you put your entire foot on the rudder pedal that you would be any more prone to mis-apply the brakes when making a rudder pedal input, than you would be to bank when pulling back on the yoke to rotate. You learn to not do that.
I'm 6' and 175 -- probably fleet average. My left foot is an honest 11, but the right is at least a half size smaller...
I failed to mention that the wind was 90 deg adverse at 20 knots in the sim; "they" ALWAYS do that! FWIW, I've "landed" the sim in 50 kt crosswinds just to see what it would look like (VERY extreme in the 747!). I saw 40 for real in the 744 a few years ago going into Prestwick. The Check Airman in the left seat let me fly it -- very exciting!
As for the height-challenged, they only need to move back the rudder pedals and/or move up the seat. My colleagues run the gamut of seat height and leg length...
I'm sure we could discuss the V1-2 kt situation ad nauseum, especially if the reversers failed as well. I suppose the individual technique depends as much on the Pilot's prior experience as well as his current airplane (recognizing that SOME habits must be unlearned). But for me, after gliders and taildraggers with heel brakes and aircraft-carrier-based jets and a few others, the heels-on-deck method works for me. Since some airplanes demanded it and none prohibited it, it became my habit. For others, the "cocked and locked" pose with toes ready to attack the brake pedals may work as well.
OTOH, I've seen blown tires on the catapult as well as on the trap from those who tried the heels-up pose on the boat...
PPRuNe supporter
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 1,677
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, I would like to add that until arriving on the Airbus my heels would always be on the floor so as not to scuff or blow out tires during rudder only inputs. As far as the other pilot following up on the rudders, I guess it's whatever your used to.
Air Rabbitt says:
but I honestly don’t know why anyone would presume that if you put your entire foot on the rudder pedal that you would be any more prone to mis-apply the brakes when making a rudder pedal input, than you would be to bank when pulling back on the yoke to rotate. You learn to not do that.
............................................................ ...................................
Refer to my first post about the chappie that over-ran the runway during the abort because he was unaware during the take off run he was applying intermittent brakes. I know it is hard to believe a pilot could fall for that, but the scary part is that neither PF or PNF or the instructor picked the fault during the take off run. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it happens every day somewhere around the world - ie shoes touching the top of the brake pedals.
but I honestly don’t know why anyone would presume that if you put your entire foot on the rudder pedal that you would be any more prone to mis-apply the brakes when making a rudder pedal input, than you would be to bank when pulling back on the yoke to rotate. You learn to not do that.
............................................................ ...................................
Refer to my first post about the chappie that over-ran the runway during the abort because he was unaware during the take off run he was applying intermittent brakes. I know it is hard to believe a pilot could fall for that, but the scary part is that neither PF or PNF or the instructor picked the fault during the take off run. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it happens every day somewhere around the world - ie shoes touching the top of the brake pedals.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 801
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I guess its obvious that I’m not going to convince many (if any) of those here – and equally obvious is that a pilot’s personal preferences are about as personal as it can get. Centaurus refers me back to his post citing the pilot that “over-ran the runway during an abort because he was unaware during the take off run he was applying intermittent brakes” in response to my rhetorical comment that I couldn’t understand why someone would presume that a properly trained pilot would be prone to mis-apply brakes when making a rudder pedal input. He further asserts that he “wouldn't be at all surprised if it happens every day somewhere around the world – i.e., shoes touching the top of the brake pedals.”
I know Centaurus, and I certainly don’t challenge his background or his expertise when it comes to aviation matters. I am positively sure (uh, that would make it surely sure?) that the situation he quotes happened just the way he described it. Now, however, after saying that, I, too, went to a simulator last week. Actually, I wangled the use of three different simulators – for three different aircraft types (CRJ200, B737-800, and B767-300). I convinced three other pilots to join me in my activities. We did as Centaurus had done, except I asked the simulator technician to print out the brake pedal pressure and relative brake pedal position for each takeoff. I made a series of takeoffs and each of the three pilots along with me made a series of takeoffs in each of the simulators. I did not ask any of the pilots what “technique” they used when taking off, I merely asked them to takeoff, but I advised each of them to anticipate a relatively strong crosswind, and mentioned that they might “expect” an up-wind engine failure very close to V1. None of them knew that the brake pedal pressure or position was being recorded or printed.
The results were that in no case did any one involved mis-apply brakes during the takeoff run. That knowledge from the rudder pedal pressure/position print-outs. I will say that Centaurus is correct in that it IS difficult to see where the pilot has his feet positioned on the rudder pedals if you just look at the rudder pedals. But what was obvious, was the seat position relative to the control column. In 2 cases, the pilot was positioned “rather close” to the column, to the extent that I don’t believe any further forward movement of the seat would have been possible and still allow for an adequate space for aft movement during rotation. The other obvious thing I noticed in both of those cases was that after V1, I could see each pilot move his feet toward the floor of the simulator; apparently moving his feet to a “heels-on-the-floor” position. The third pilot (a rather tall chap – 6 feet 2 inches) did not have his seat positioned as close to the column as did the other two pilots. Also, I did not notice an overt movement of his foot position after takeoff during any of the times we actually took off. For information, about 70% of the takeoffs were uninterrupted, and about 30% were interrupted with an abort at very close to V1 speed. The weight in each case was very close to max gross for the conditions.
At the end of the morning, I did de-brief each of my “subjects” on what I was doing, and why. The third pilot (the big guy) told me that his procedure was to put his feet on the rudder pedal with the rudder pedal “bar” (located at the bottom of the pedal and around which the pedal rotates) at the top of the heel of his shoe. His opinion was that he had adequate leverage to apply maximum braking from that position without having to move his feet, and that he maintained his feet in that position until the airplane was accelerated and cleaned up for climb, at which time he moved his heels to the floor as well. We never ventured that far into the takeoff profile, and I never saw his feet move. In each of the other cases, the pilots told me that they placed their feet higher up on the rudder pedals because they were anticipating a high speed abort with a strong crosswind. One of these pilots told me that he did not usually place his feet that high on the rudder pedal unless the crosswind was rather stiff.
The point here is that I know these 3 pilots were properly trained initially. Two of them had been my students (one almost 30 years ago) and one was the student of a very close colleague of mine. They didn’t have to be told where to place their feet. They didn’t have to be told to remember to make rudder corrections with their heel. They flew as I would have expected them to fly – ready for an occurrence on the runway during takeoff, that no one really expects to see.
Yes, I know this is a very limited “research” event and therefore, isn't valid much beyond personal opinion. However, what happened is what happened. And I would surmise from the postings here that the group of pilots I used are not in the majority; at least if one can presume that a representative sampling of pilots are members of this forum and have voiced an opinion on this thread.
I also acknowledge Centaurus’ statement that a really serious event causing an abort to occur just prior to V1 is a very remote possibility. But it does happen. It’s happened to me twice. The first time caught me unaware – and I vowed to never to let that happen again. When an even more serious event occurred a couple of years later, I was ready. Please understand that I have no intention of getting involved in a “one-upsmanship” discussion (You think that was bad? Let me tell you about the time that I…), because I’m sure I would get buried by the experiences had by many. But in my very own situation, had I not been ready, there is little doubt in my mind that the consequences would have been quite grave. The deed was reviewed by a series of major command authorities and the conclusion was that “any delay beyond that which the crew took would have most probably resulted in the aircraft departing the departure end of the runway, and possibly beyond the 1000-foot overrun area, down the embankment, and into the small business district in that location.” A fully loaded KC135 can carry a lot of JP4 and the fire would have been spectacular. I am glad that it didn’t happen. I’m glad I learned from an earlier abort. What I do is what I do. What I teach is what I teach. The students I’ve had learn what I teach and then they are free to fly the way they best know and feel and function. At least I know I’ve given them the best information I could, and I’ve determined that they CAN and DO function correctly when required to do so. For that I am very grateful and somewhat humbled by that understanding.
I know Centaurus, and I certainly don’t challenge his background or his expertise when it comes to aviation matters. I am positively sure (uh, that would make it surely sure?) that the situation he quotes happened just the way he described it. Now, however, after saying that, I, too, went to a simulator last week. Actually, I wangled the use of three different simulators – for three different aircraft types (CRJ200, B737-800, and B767-300). I convinced three other pilots to join me in my activities. We did as Centaurus had done, except I asked the simulator technician to print out the brake pedal pressure and relative brake pedal position for each takeoff. I made a series of takeoffs and each of the three pilots along with me made a series of takeoffs in each of the simulators. I did not ask any of the pilots what “technique” they used when taking off, I merely asked them to takeoff, but I advised each of them to anticipate a relatively strong crosswind, and mentioned that they might “expect” an up-wind engine failure very close to V1. None of them knew that the brake pedal pressure or position was being recorded or printed.
The results were that in no case did any one involved mis-apply brakes during the takeoff run. That knowledge from the rudder pedal pressure/position print-outs. I will say that Centaurus is correct in that it IS difficult to see where the pilot has his feet positioned on the rudder pedals if you just look at the rudder pedals. But what was obvious, was the seat position relative to the control column. In 2 cases, the pilot was positioned “rather close” to the column, to the extent that I don’t believe any further forward movement of the seat would have been possible and still allow for an adequate space for aft movement during rotation. The other obvious thing I noticed in both of those cases was that after V1, I could see each pilot move his feet toward the floor of the simulator; apparently moving his feet to a “heels-on-the-floor” position. The third pilot (a rather tall chap – 6 feet 2 inches) did not have his seat positioned as close to the column as did the other two pilots. Also, I did not notice an overt movement of his foot position after takeoff during any of the times we actually took off. For information, about 70% of the takeoffs were uninterrupted, and about 30% were interrupted with an abort at very close to V1 speed. The weight in each case was very close to max gross for the conditions.
At the end of the morning, I did de-brief each of my “subjects” on what I was doing, and why. The third pilot (the big guy) told me that his procedure was to put his feet on the rudder pedal with the rudder pedal “bar” (located at the bottom of the pedal and around which the pedal rotates) at the top of the heel of his shoe. His opinion was that he had adequate leverage to apply maximum braking from that position without having to move his feet, and that he maintained his feet in that position until the airplane was accelerated and cleaned up for climb, at which time he moved his heels to the floor as well. We never ventured that far into the takeoff profile, and I never saw his feet move. In each of the other cases, the pilots told me that they placed their feet higher up on the rudder pedals because they were anticipating a high speed abort with a strong crosswind. One of these pilots told me that he did not usually place his feet that high on the rudder pedal unless the crosswind was rather stiff.
The point here is that I know these 3 pilots were properly trained initially. Two of them had been my students (one almost 30 years ago) and one was the student of a very close colleague of mine. They didn’t have to be told where to place their feet. They didn’t have to be told to remember to make rudder corrections with their heel. They flew as I would have expected them to fly – ready for an occurrence on the runway during takeoff, that no one really expects to see.
Yes, I know this is a very limited “research” event and therefore, isn't valid much beyond personal opinion. However, what happened is what happened. And I would surmise from the postings here that the group of pilots I used are not in the majority; at least if one can presume that a representative sampling of pilots are members of this forum and have voiced an opinion on this thread.
I also acknowledge Centaurus’ statement that a really serious event causing an abort to occur just prior to V1 is a very remote possibility. But it does happen. It’s happened to me twice. The first time caught me unaware – and I vowed to never to let that happen again. When an even more serious event occurred a couple of years later, I was ready. Please understand that I have no intention of getting involved in a “one-upsmanship” discussion (You think that was bad? Let me tell you about the time that I…), because I’m sure I would get buried by the experiences had by many. But in my very own situation, had I not been ready, there is little doubt in my mind that the consequences would have been quite grave. The deed was reviewed by a series of major command authorities and the conclusion was that “any delay beyond that which the crew took would have most probably resulted in the aircraft departing the departure end of the runway, and possibly beyond the 1000-foot overrun area, down the embankment, and into the small business district in that location.” A fully loaded KC135 can carry a lot of JP4 and the fire would have been spectacular. I am glad that it didn’t happen. I’m glad I learned from an earlier abort. What I do is what I do. What I teach is what I teach. The students I’ve had learn what I teach and then they are free to fly the way they best know and feel and function. At least I know I’ve given them the best information I could, and I’ve determined that they CAN and DO function correctly when required to do so. For that I am very grateful and somewhat humbled by that understanding.
Good post Air Rabbit and thoroughly readable. On another matter (although vaguely related) I used to fly with my old Commanding Officer when we both left the military and flew Fokker Friendships together on navigation aid flight calibration duties. He never gave a pre-take off briefing of any type. I asked him why. He said we both had SID plates in front of us - we could both read English and there was no point in repeating what was already in print in front of us. As far as an engine failure brief, he felt the same way. His point was that both of us were qualified on type - we knew the drills - we knew the SOP from the Ops Manual and he could not possibly brief on every conceivable emergency that could occur from TOGA to after take off checklist, please. In any case (he said), he might have to deviate from established emergency procedures and he would only decide on that when the event happened. He was indeed a man of few words - but I tell you what - he was a first class pilot.
Contrast his sentiments with that of current airline procedures where verbalising (briefing by talking) by rote of almost every facet of flying the aeroplane is SOP and ensures it's all in the CVR to keep the lawyers happy.
Contrast his sentiments with that of current airline procedures where verbalising (briefing by talking) by rote of almost every facet of flying the aeroplane is SOP and ensures it's all in the CVR to keep the lawyers happy.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 801
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Centaurus -- my friend -- once again, your observations go way beyond the observable.
I, too, have wondered if all the "rote" briefings would even be remembered (let alone followed) by many who utter them out of habit rather than intention. I guess that with today's reliability with the mechanical functions of almost everything, from engines to avionics, pilots may have an advantage in that the "odds" are with them, rather than against them. I think that when you and I were still trying to figure out which way to turn to keep the tail of the needle where it was supposed to be and the reliability of systems weren't all that great, we learned that when we briefed something, we were mentally and verbally describing what it was that we were going to do. And, unfortunately, there were enough times that the reliability of those systems allowed us to "test" whether or not we really were going to do what we briefed.
I still enjoy our exchanges here, and I always look forward to your very experienced voice of reason and expertise. When the time comes that I cease to learn from others (regardless of their background, their opinion, or their talent) is the time that I should get out of the cockpit and relegate myself to one of the lesser forms of self flagellation. But selfishly, I hope that day doesn't come too quickly -- as I dearly love this business!
Best Regards,
AirRabbit
I, too, have wondered if all the "rote" briefings would even be remembered (let alone followed) by many who utter them out of habit rather than intention. I guess that with today's reliability with the mechanical functions of almost everything, from engines to avionics, pilots may have an advantage in that the "odds" are with them, rather than against them. I think that when you and I were still trying to figure out which way to turn to keep the tail of the needle where it was supposed to be and the reliability of systems weren't all that great, we learned that when we briefed something, we were mentally and verbally describing what it was that we were going to do. And, unfortunately, there were enough times that the reliability of those systems allowed us to "test" whether or not we really were going to do what we briefed.
I still enjoy our exchanges here, and I always look forward to your very experienced voice of reason and expertise. When the time comes that I cease to learn from others (regardless of their background, their opinion, or their talent) is the time that I should get out of the cockpit and relegate myself to one of the lesser forms of self flagellation. But selfishly, I hope that day doesn't come too quickly -- as I dearly love this business!
Best Regards,
AirRabbit
