Heathrow Approach Path
If you're claiming all these flights this am were to the south of the "Heathrow south landing corridor" whatever that, is, has it crossed your mind that maybe the corridor isn't where you think it is?
BTW shame you got up so late, you missed logging my arrival...........which was established on the centreline of 27 left at over 10 miles out.....
BTW shame you got up so late, you missed logging my arrival...........which was established on the centreline of 27 left at over 10 miles out.....
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Well I have just wasted abou 16 minutes of my time looking at the webtrak data for Friday at the times the deranged bloke mentions.
Surprise, surprise, all the flights followed the same ground track between 1346 and 1402!
From my research. the flight sequence was:
~1346 CZ303 from CAN B788
~1348 JJ8088 from GIG B76W
~1350 BA847 from WAW A320
~1351 BA549 from FCO A320
~1352 KL1019 from AMS F70 (one of his private jets perhaps?)
~1353 SK805 from OSL B73G
~1355 VS401 from DXB A333
~1357 BA541 from BLQ A319
~1359 LH908 from FRA B733
~1400 BA18 from ICN B772
~1402 BA1311 from ABZ A320
Now will you please either review the above and come back and admit you are wrong, or just take your trolling elsewhere and keep on smoking your wacky baccy:ugh
Surprise, surprise, all the flights followed the same ground track between 1346 and 1402!
From my research. the flight sequence was:
~1346 CZ303 from CAN B788
~1348 JJ8088 from GIG B76W
~1350 BA847 from WAW A320
~1351 BA549 from FCO A320
~1352 KL1019 from AMS F70 (one of his private jets perhaps?)
~1353 SK805 from OSL B73G
~1355 VS401 from DXB A333
~1357 BA541 from BLQ A319
~1359 LH908 from FRA B733
~1400 BA18 from ICN B772
~1402 BA1311 from ABZ A320
Now will you please either review the above and come back and admit you are wrong, or just take your trolling elsewhere and keep on smoking your wacky baccy:ugh
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I had a go replaying webtrak for much of Friday's period that you mentioned. I could not identify your TWA flight that went over Barnes Home Guard. On the magnification of the map that I used (Zoom Level 6) the majority of flights passed about 1 character width below the C of Church Avenue (the only named street running North-South ish on your axis of Barnes Home Guard to Mortlake Station). Occasionally the track might pass through the C of Church Avenue or where I guessed 3 characters south of the C would be.
However, there were a couple of flights where I would agree the planes were not established on the ILS when crossing this axis - but nowhere near as far off as a direct overhead flight over Barnes Home Guard.
AF1780 13:41 (crossed URR at East Sheen Ave)
LH908 13:59 (crossed URR at Richmond Park Road)
The private jet (coloured blue on Webtrak) was visible at 13:51 but is touching the end of Milton Road rather than overflying Muirwood Avenue and is essentially flying the same track as the majority of planes.
However, there were a couple of flights where I would agree the planes were not established on the ILS when crossing this axis - but nowhere near as far off as a direct overhead flight over Barnes Home Guard.
AF1780 13:41 (crossed URR at East Sheen Ave)
LH908 13:59 (crossed URR at Richmond Park Road)
The private jet (coloured blue on Webtrak) was visible at 13:51 but is touching the end of Milton Road rather than overflying Muirwood Avenue and is essentially flying the same track as the majority of planes.
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http://www.heathrowairport.com/stati...2013-FINAL.pdf
(page 17) gives recent monthly figures for the percentage of "day joining point lates" and is under the 1% figure as Dave Reid mentions.
On an unrelated matter, I'd be interested in any explanations for the high percentages of flights taking off from 09L that don't manage to keep to track (09LCPT, 09LMID, 09LSAM) - page 10 of the above report. Numbers of flights from 09L aren't large (yet !) but those figures are very low.
(page 17) gives recent monthly figures for the percentage of "day joining point lates" and is under the 1% figure as Dave Reid mentions.
On an unrelated matter, I'd be interested in any explanations for the high percentages of flights taking off from 09L that don't manage to keep to track (09LCPT, 09LMID, 09LSAM) - page 10 of the above report. Numbers of flights from 09L aren't large (yet !) but those figures are very low.
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Planning permission for the full works to do the resurfacing next summer is still awaited, but the report for Jan-Jun 2013 said :
"As the [southern] runway resurfacing continues, we
hope to get some meaningful data for departures off 09L to
look for trends and ways of improving performance. So far this
year, ANOMS has recorded 907 departures off 09L.
"As the [southern] runway resurfacing continues, we
hope to get some meaningful data for departures off 09L to
look for trends and ways of improving performance. So far this
year, ANOMS has recorded 907 departures off 09L.
Paxing All Over The World
Suggestion krsmith:
- A modern laptop with some speed and some Wi-Fi
- Tune it to a popular site of the net where the numbers 24 are preceeded flight and radar
This will provide real time id of all a/c and details - A thick overcoat and scarf
- A mug of tea/beer
- A reclining chair in your garden
- Make notes
- Report!
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PAXboy,
Can you tell me why some flights on flightradar24 are shown in incorrect positions ?
For instance, I had a glance at the same period of activity as the orignal poster (Friday 15th November 13:30 ish) and most of the tracks were on the same alignment as Webtrak.
However KLM1019 at 13:53 was shown as considerably to the north of the glidepath , even passing to the north of Mortlake Station (the northern marker mentioned previously !), overflying the Mortlake Brewery and just skirting the bottom of the bend in the Thames. I guess the displayed track was about 400m from the actual. Presumably the plane didn't touch down on the Terminal 3 stand where it ends up on FR24 or we would have heard about it !!
Can you tell me why some flights on flightradar24 are shown in incorrect positions ?
For instance, I had a glance at the same period of activity as the orignal poster (Friday 15th November 13:30 ish) and most of the tracks were on the same alignment as Webtrak.
However KLM1019 at 13:53 was shown as considerably to the north of the glidepath , even passing to the north of Mortlake Station (the northern marker mentioned previously !), overflying the Mortlake Brewery and just skirting the bottom of the bend in the Thames. I guess the displayed track was about 400m from the actual. Presumably the plane didn't touch down on the Terminal 3 stand where it ends up on FR24 or we would have heard about it !!
Can you tell me why some flights on flightradar24 are shown in incorrect positions ?
Most modern commercial airliners have GPS integrated with their avionics. Those are the ones that are displayed tracking straight down the ILS.
Some older aircraft, although they make equally accurate approaches on the ILS, don't have an integrated GPS. The positional data that they transmit comes from inertial-based systems that are subject to inaccuracy and drift.
While that doesn't affect the operation of the aircraft (or of ATC, come to that), it does mean that the aircraft appear to be in the wrong place in the plan view that FlightRadar24 provides based on the dodgy data.
WebTrak, on the other hand, is powered by data from NATS radars and so doesn't suffer from this problem.
The older aircraft I referred to above include 737 Classics, early examples of the A320, 767 and 777, and aircraft such as the KLM Fokker 70 that you observed.
Last edited by DaveReidUK; 17th Nov 2013 at 12:35.
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I may have my answer
Thank you Heathrow for your prompt reply. May I just say once more the accuracy of ILS systems was never the issue with me. I have no doubt that it can bring pilots home safely in ground zero fog.
And I might add that I have solved this puzzle to my satisfaction. Yeserday morning at around 7.30 I noted the time of 14 flights overflying my house. Today I visited Webtrack to check on these fleets and - just as I expected anmd one respondent pointed out - Heathrow was running both runways in parallel throughout this period - and indeed most of the morning.
As I live one quarter of a mile south of the ILS axis as I have pointed out on several occasions - so the only logical explanation is that the planes I hear - and see overhead - have not yet switched to ILS. And indeed you youself said that Heathrow controllers make the decision to hand over to ILS according to operational requirements.
I also realise that it was unwise to ask you guys - pilots and controllers - to verify what is happening at street level. You see the world through cockpit instrument panels and radar screens. Asking you to navigate by street names and pubs was a bit much.
And I might add that I have solved this puzzle to my satisfaction. Yeserday morning at around 7.30 I noted the time of 14 flights overflying my house. Today I visited Webtrack to check on these fleets and - just as I expected anmd one respondent pointed out - Heathrow was running both runways in parallel throughout this period - and indeed most of the morning.
As I live one quarter of a mile south of the ILS axis as I have pointed out on several occasions - so the only logical explanation is that the planes I hear - and see overhead - have not yet switched to ILS. And indeed you youself said that Heathrow controllers make the decision to hand over to ILS according to operational requirements.
I also realise that it was unwise to ask you guys - pilots and controllers - to verify what is happening at street level. You see the world through cockpit instrument panels and radar screens. Asking you to navigate by street names and pubs was a bit much.
so the only logical explanation is that the planes I hear - and see overhead - have not yet switched to ILS
On an unrelated matter, I'd be interested in any explanations for the high percentages of flights taking off from 09L that don't manage to keep to track (09LCPT, 09LMID, 09LSAM)
http://www.pprune.org/spectators-bal...oach-path.html
Because the westbound standard instrument departure routes (SIDs) from both 09L and 09R involve a right-hand turn, there is a potential conflict between departing aircraft (shown in green on the graphic) and arriving flights (red) coming off the Biggin and Ockham holding stacks and being vectored for an approach from the west.
The controllers' priority is to keep those aircraft safely apart, if necessary by directing them away from the SID.
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The CPT is the only 09 departure that requires deviation from the SID for separation purposes against inbounds.
The MID and SAM departures are separated. However, all departures once above 4000ft can be taken off-route.
The MID and SAM departures are separated. However, all departures once above 4000ft can be taken off-route.
The MID and SAM departures are separated. However, all departures once above 4000ft can be taken off-route.
That's out of around 900 departures in total on 09L during the period, so we're talking about more than just a handful of flights being off-track for whatever reason.
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09LMID 33.3% on track could be 2 out of 3 off track
09LSAM 6.7% on track is at least 14 out of 15 off track
Is there something that is limiting operation of the SID ?
09LSAM 6.7% on track is at least 14 out of 15 off track
Is there something that is limiting operation of the SID ?