No foreign co-pilots from June 1
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but they dont know that they are doing more harm than good. You will be seeing many unemployed frustrated young pilots, whose parents have invested probably their life savings or put themselves into extreme debt to get their son or daughter through the training. And on top of that you have a 200 hour wonder that has probably never in their training flown an approach in actual IMC, much less in a jet other than maybe a sim. It will be confusion. Lose the communication, lose the situational awareness and its over...
Pride and Complacency is how pilots kill themselves
Pride and Complacency is how pilots kill themselves
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Hi. I don't think experience (at the FO level) is that critical if the pilots go through good initial training, TR, and IOE. I have seen 300 hr FOs flourish in the right seat. What I was concerned with was the way my student started looking at the syllabus like a menu. Since he didn't need to get his instrument rating or his comm multi, he always asked if he really needed to know things when he had a hard time understanding them.
Demand is demand, and if the airlines and their DGAC is ok with students not obtaining licenses that are generally required, that is their problem. However it seems wrong to throw out the IRA and COMM Multi/Inst out the window to reduce training time and cost, especially when he will be flying multi-engine planes under IFR for a living. This fueled his attitude, and like GDonkey said, all I heard was that he only needed to log time and pass his 2 rides. He even suggested I add entries into his logbook with extra time to help him out. He didn't really want to learn things, he would be in an A320 or B777 when he got back regardless. It was as if his initial flight training was just a formality, just some ink in the logbook, before his airline career began. It made teaching very difficult.
It is their country and their sky. They can chose to do whatever they want. Lets hope it works out for them. I only see insurance companies and manufacturers in a position to require more hours in the left seat.
This is my experience with one guy only, I mean no disrespect or intend to generalize at all.
rcl
Demand is demand, and if the airlines and their DGAC is ok with students not obtaining licenses that are generally required, that is their problem. However it seems wrong to throw out the IRA and COMM Multi/Inst out the window to reduce training time and cost, especially when he will be flying multi-engine planes under IFR for a living. This fueled his attitude, and like GDonkey said, all I heard was that he only needed to log time and pass his 2 rides. He even suggested I add entries into his logbook with extra time to help him out. He didn't really want to learn things, he would be in an A320 or B777 when he got back regardless. It was as if his initial flight training was just a formality, just some ink in the logbook, before his airline career began. It made teaching very difficult.
It is their country and their sky. They can chose to do whatever they want. Lets hope it works out for them. I only see insurance companies and manufacturers in a position to require more hours in the left seat.
This is my experience with one guy only, I mean no disrespect or intend to generalize at all.
rcl
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I have already witnessed the same decision 6 years ago in one big African country. It lasted less than two years and the result was that the Airlines tried to call the foreigners back...I will not elaborate the reasons...
Almost every pilot training facility in US offers J1 Visas and instructor flying or some sort of time building, but the young frozen ATP holders do not want to fly their way up like pilots did in the past.
Instead they are looking at their profession as an investment with high gain probability and that is where the problem exists, and not just in India
It is possible to impose such rule since only the privileged ones can afford such investment, meaning they have access to government decision making process.
Imagine Google, Microsoft or Mayo Clinic decides to close the doors to skilled foreign IT or Medical experts and starts employing only young inexperienced US citizens...
May I add that the largest number of H1 visa apps come from Indian continent.
The most successful Airlines in the World are multinational.
Almost every pilot training facility in US offers J1 Visas and instructor flying or some sort of time building, but the young frozen ATP holders do not want to fly their way up like pilots did in the past.
Instead they are looking at their profession as an investment with high gain probability and that is where the problem exists, and not just in India
It is possible to impose such rule since only the privileged ones can afford such investment, meaning they have access to government decision making process.
Imagine Google, Microsoft or Mayo Clinic decides to close the doors to skilled foreign IT or Medical experts and starts employing only young inexperienced US citizens...
May I add that the largest number of H1 visa apps come from Indian continent.
The most successful Airlines in the World are multinational.
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Funny there is another topic being discussed in the same forum about flight schools in India. I don't think it is a bad idea for them to allow only locals to be FO's, however this requires a phase out plan that is well thought out. From the flight schools in India post, it seems like there are enough young pilots ready to take those positions while having experienced captains in the left seat guiding them.
I don't think China or India are thinking about having foreigners with big salaries flying their airplanes forever. They want them there to teach the locals until they have enough local pilots with the right experience and ability. They even want to build their own planes not to depend on Boeing and Airbus, I don't think the plan is to need foreigners.
I guess I don't see what is wrong with protecting your own, as long as the changes are fair and give enough time for the affected people to find other jobs.
rcl
I don't think China or India are thinking about having foreigners with big salaries flying their airplanes forever. They want them there to teach the locals until they have enough local pilots with the right experience and ability. They even want to build their own planes not to depend on Boeing and Airbus, I don't think the plan is to need foreigners.
I guess I don't see what is wrong with protecting your own, as long as the changes are fair and give enough time for the affected people to find other jobs.
rcl
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RCL
It was chilling to read your comments on "instructing" indian pilots.
Now I'm more that sure it's just a matter of time to see, like I said here before, more headlines on smoking debris and corpses.
Your comments on experience level versus quality of training for f/os and the logic to employ their owns make sense, but you'd have to take a deeper look on indian training/standards and modus operandi...
Looks like the history will repeat itself, nobody seems to learn from past experience, like what happened with KAL in the early 80's, with an yearly hull loss, claiming hundreds of lifes. 3,000 Hrs total time wide body captains, poor backgrounds and training quality, what a joke!!
Who's going to pay the bill? DGCA?
Let's hope insurance companies at least keep their eyes wide open on whats going on.
Now I'm more that sure it's just a matter of time to see, like I said here before, more headlines on smoking debris and corpses.
Your comments on experience level versus quality of training for f/os and the logic to employ their owns make sense, but you'd have to take a deeper look on indian training/standards and modus operandi...
Looks like the history will repeat itself, nobody seems to learn from past experience, like what happened with KAL in the early 80's, with an yearly hull loss, claiming hundreds of lifes. 3,000 Hrs total time wide body captains, poor backgrounds and training quality, what a joke!!
Who's going to pay the bill? DGCA?
Let's hope insurance companies at least keep their eyes wide open on whats going on.
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As far as the pride goes, there is no reason that all pilots in India shouldn't be locals. I think that would be great! But get rid of the double standards, the propaganda, stop telling these people what they could be and start training them properly. Strict regulations. You make it through, you proceed to next level. Some people are just not cut out to fly, thats the sad reality. But from the sounds of it is, if you can get your PPL, you're in.
I think it would be a great idea for India to start a cargo market both locally and to other asian and middle eastern countries. Have the low timers fly these aircrafts, then move up to second officers on the long hauls so they can watch the experienced guys do the job. Then move their way into domestic FO. Proper training and instilling the importance of proper flying skills, CRM, SOPs and safety regulations will make them take the job alot more seriously and will look at it as a responsibility not only an investment. It can be done, but it has to be done PROPERLY, and I dont think the people at the top can make the right decisions to do it.
But put a 2000hr CRJ captain with a 300hr FO flying multiple legs between Mumbai, Delhi, hyderabad and other high density air routes is like watching the road traffic in india, you'll be thinking ok, someone these days is gonna get it.
I think it would be a great idea for India to start a cargo market both locally and to other asian and middle eastern countries. Have the low timers fly these aircrafts, then move up to second officers on the long hauls so they can watch the experienced guys do the job. Then move their way into domestic FO. Proper training and instilling the importance of proper flying skills, CRM, SOPs and safety regulations will make them take the job alot more seriously and will look at it as a responsibility not only an investment. It can be done, but it has to be done PROPERLY, and I dont think the people at the top can make the right decisions to do it.
But put a 2000hr CRJ captain with a 300hr FO flying multiple legs between Mumbai, Delhi, hyderabad and other high density air routes is like watching the road traffic in india, you'll be thinking ok, someone these days is gonna get it.
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i think things are being blown slightly out of proportion ...
the requirements of the DGCA to convert a foreign licence to an indian one state that the applicant must have 200 TT, 100 PIC, 50 XC and so on .... If you require a multi rating, then you have to have 15 hours in an a/c registererd in india and 10 hours on an approved sim ... etc etc etc these are the requirements you need to "convert" the license to an Indian one.
Not to get a job.
Airlines have their own set of requirements, the basics of which are a Commercial Multi IR ... though students due to financial constraints and lack of fore sight might end up just sticking to a SE CPL. And won't land a job.
airlines are sending their students to places CAE Dubai, Tolouse etc. If a person doesn't cut it there, he gets the boot.
Checks and filters have been put in place. And they do the job to some.
the requirements of the DGCA to convert a foreign licence to an indian one state that the applicant must have 200 TT, 100 PIC, 50 XC and so on .... If you require a multi rating, then you have to have 15 hours in an a/c registererd in india and 10 hours on an approved sim ... etc etc etc these are the requirements you need to "convert" the license to an Indian one.
Not to get a job.
Airlines have their own set of requirements, the basics of which are a Commercial Multi IR ... though students due to financial constraints and lack of fore sight might end up just sticking to a SE CPL. And won't land a job.
airlines are sending their students to places CAE Dubai, Tolouse etc. If a person doesn't cut it there, he gets the boot.
Checks and filters have been put in place. And they do the job to some.
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I have no clue what the procedure or requirements are to convert a license or get a job in India, this was just my experience (first hand experience) with one guy. Unfortunately I have not exaggerated at all, all I have written is true. It didn't seem like converting was much of an issue, he told me it was about paying enough (in terms of bribes), and knowing the right people to get the paperwork through. As for flight time, if he asked me to forge entries in his logbook, I don't think he would've had a hard time doing that himself before showing up at DGAC. I have nothing against the country or its people, this was just my experience with one very problematic individual, with issues that appear to come from this sense of entitlement, and pride, which go back to the title of this topic.
Unfortunately I have also seen people come back with a fresh TR from these kinds of training centers only to spend months and months with training captains. Training facilities are businesses. Many times they only prep pilots to get them out the door ASAP. In times of high demand, everybody goes with the flow, and not just with indian airlines.
Once again this was just my experience with ONE guy. I am not trying to generalize or offend. I apologize for posting the deeds of one bad apple in what could appear to be a generalization or an anti-India campaign. PM me for further discussion.
rcl
Unfortunately I have also seen people come back with a fresh TR from these kinds of training centers only to spend months and months with training captains. Training facilities are businesses. Many times they only prep pilots to get them out the door ASAP. In times of high demand, everybody goes with the flow, and not just with indian airlines.
Once again this was just my experience with ONE guy. I am not trying to generalize or offend. I apologize for posting the deeds of one bad apple in what could appear to be a generalization or an anti-India campaign. PM me for further discussion.
rcl
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What if the US views this as protectionism and retaliates with H1b visa restrictions? There are several US retired Captains (DAL, UAL, CAL, AA) currently flying for Jet Airways - and Kingfisher will need experienced international Captains in their expansion plans. The experience level those US pilots bring to the table is far, far more than the current or future (2010) Indian aviation scene could ever hope to produce. It is afterall, a two way street.....
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kkpilot
"What if the US views this as protectionism and retaliates with H1b visa restrictions? There are several US retired Captains (DAL, UAL, CAL, AA) currently flying for Jet Airways - and Kingfisher will need experienced international Captains in their expansion plans. The experience level those US pilots bring to the table is far, far more than the current or future (2010) Indian aviation scene could ever hope to produce. It is afterall, a two way street....."
I heard from an insider that this is a very concrete possibility. US may even cancel some programs allowing poor indian families to immigrate to US.
I heard from an insider that this is a very concrete possibility. US may even cancel some programs allowing poor indian families to immigrate to US.
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rcl
I simpatize with your elegant way of doing things.
However, I may assure you that this IS THE RULE. As there are no general aviation in India, youngsters arrive at the airlines with a lot less REAL experience than their logbooks suggests. So you have a potentially dangerous environment. Fortunately, the influx of highly experienced expat captains have been avoiding the worse.
Now, DGCA intend to reinvent the wheel and push a career progression that takes at least 10 years in 3!!
However, I may assure you that this IS THE RULE. As there are no general aviation in India, youngsters arrive at the airlines with a lot less REAL experience than their logbooks suggests. So you have a potentially dangerous environment. Fortunately, the influx of highly experienced expat captains have been avoiding the worse.
Now, DGCA intend to reinvent the wheel and push a career progression that takes at least 10 years in 3!!
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visa ristrictions
kk pilot
if usa puts visa ristrictions then lot of ambassy staff will not be required.
many will loose jobs and will be forced to work at low salaries.
find some better solution.
if usa puts visa ristrictions then lot of ambassy staff will not be required.
many will loose jobs and will be forced to work at low salaries.
find some better solution.
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Been there, done it, ran away....
So, kick out experienced pilots to fuel the false nationalisitic pride, eh? The truth is these guys fly all over the world, yet still believe they come back to the "world's best city"....."we have the best training...the best aircraft...."
An "experienced" FO in India is one who knows when to switch off the RECIRC FANS whilst the Cmdr has a smoke.
Have sat in on check rides, both sim and aircraft with "experienced" Indian FO's who couldn't fly straight and level on downwind with the FD's off, let alone continue an un-assisted approach and landing. Of course they passed the check ride given by the same bloke who cooked his hours to get TRE status. (Do some research before you try to argue against that fact).
Not saying the good guys aren't there, but EXTREMELY few and far between. So, kick out your experince with self satisfying abundance, as the infamous "Jet Orienatation Program" is "THE BEST" training in the world!!! So I was repeatedly told.... Any Cmdrs out there? I dare you to switch the A/P off as well as the FD's and ask your FO to intercept finals and fly a visual approach. I wouldn't / couldn't.
Pilots all over the world fly for 1000's of hours on pistons, turbo props, etc OR get DECENT, SOLID & SUBJECTIVE training to fill the right seat of a "heavy". Again, not saying it can't be done as many airlines have proven it can - but these ones certainly haven't.
Bitter and twisted? NO WAY. I just left because I have this thing about living. Could the FO land it in a 20 kt x-wind in monsoonal weather if I had a heart attack? No. And that's why I left. I wish I was there when there were guys coming to the seat with a sound back ground through experience, knowledge and skill.
Grade / hire pilots on skill and aptitude, not on the country's name on the passport.
An "experienced" FO in India is one who knows when to switch off the RECIRC FANS whilst the Cmdr has a smoke.
Have sat in on check rides, both sim and aircraft with "experienced" Indian FO's who couldn't fly straight and level on downwind with the FD's off, let alone continue an un-assisted approach and landing. Of course they passed the check ride given by the same bloke who cooked his hours to get TRE status. (Do some research before you try to argue against that fact).
Not saying the good guys aren't there, but EXTREMELY few and far between. So, kick out your experince with self satisfying abundance, as the infamous "Jet Orienatation Program" is "THE BEST" training in the world!!! So I was repeatedly told.... Any Cmdrs out there? I dare you to switch the A/P off as well as the FD's and ask your FO to intercept finals and fly a visual approach. I wouldn't / couldn't.
Pilots all over the world fly for 1000's of hours on pistons, turbo props, etc OR get DECENT, SOLID & SUBJECTIVE training to fill the right seat of a "heavy". Again, not saying it can't be done as many airlines have proven it can - but these ones certainly haven't.
Bitter and twisted? NO WAY. I just left because I have this thing about living. Could the FO land it in a 20 kt x-wind in monsoonal weather if I had a heart attack? No. And that's why I left. I wish I was there when there were guys coming to the seat with a sound back ground through experience, knowledge and skill.
Grade / hire pilots on skill and aptitude, not on the country's name on the passport.
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Top Gun (I mean TopTup)you contradict yourself. You conclude by saying
"Grade / hire pilots on skill and aptitude, not on the country's name on the passport"
and start by saying
"....with "experienced" Indian FO's who couldn't fly straight and level on downwind with the FD's off, let alone continue an un-assisted approach and landing".
Make up your mind please before you start bad mouthing others. Are you a TRI/TRE? If not please refrain from passing judgment on other pilots whatever may be the country's name on their passport
. Or else somebody would turn around and say "Good riddance to bad rubbish"
Cheers have a drink mate.
"Grade / hire pilots on skill and aptitude, not on the country's name on the passport"
and start by saying
"....with "experienced" Indian FO's who couldn't fly straight and level on downwind with the FD's off, let alone continue an un-assisted approach and landing".
Make up your mind please before you start bad mouthing others. Are you a TRI/TRE? If not please refrain from passing judgment on other pilots whatever may be the country's name on their passport
. Or else somebody would turn around and say "Good riddance to bad rubbish"Cheers have a drink mate.
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i wonder why we have parallel threads running ... anyways, to add to the above post a lil X-reference ...
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...6&postcount=11
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...6&postcount=11
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Yes, I am a TRI.
I left because I had to weigh up personal integrity to do my job as well as the safety in the environment I initially applied to join. It was my choice to join, it was my choice to leave.
I used the term "experienced" as such, ie inverted commas, because as far as the airline was concerned, they were regarded as such at the time I observed what I commented on in my previous post.
Have re-read my post and do not see where I contradicted myself. Coming from an English speaking country I had to go to the DGCA to prove my capability of speaking my mother tongue. Too bad there isn't a literacy test as such for ALL......
"good riddance to bad rubbish" ??? Well that is exactly what I did!
Now, you go and look yourself in the mirror after your next flight and tell yourself that it is OK to smoke in the cockpit, to be out of uniform at work (in cruise, etc), speak / treat the cabin crew as is done, have random people / pax in the cockpit, keep the cokpit door unlocked, have more people than is allocated seating positions for in the cockpit for take off, landing, or any other phase of flight..... Just read your SOPs and be honest with yourself as to if they are followed, that's all.
If the FAA found out what went on, what you think they would do? Now, if Star Alliance found out, what would they do as well to your national carrier's application - "invitation"?
So, back to the topic..... Kick out the foreigners to allow this culture to thrive!!!!! Could you imagine the outrage if India welcomed experince and standards? Yes, there are national guys up there with some of the best I've seen (both Cmdr and FO). But why not resource the best that is available, be they national or foreign?
Drive away a 10,000 hr Foreign FO expereinced on the type needed (random example) to replace with a 250 hr CPL National. Yeah, that makes sense. With your parents, wife, kids, grandparents on board, who would you rather up at the pointy end?
I left because I had to weigh up personal integrity to do my job as well as the safety in the environment I initially applied to join. It was my choice to join, it was my choice to leave.
I used the term "experienced" as such, ie inverted commas, because as far as the airline was concerned, they were regarded as such at the time I observed what I commented on in my previous post.
Have re-read my post and do not see where I contradicted myself. Coming from an English speaking country I had to go to the DGCA to prove my capability of speaking my mother tongue. Too bad there isn't a literacy test as such for ALL......
"good riddance to bad rubbish" ??? Well that is exactly what I did!
Now, you go and look yourself in the mirror after your next flight and tell yourself that it is OK to smoke in the cockpit, to be out of uniform at work (in cruise, etc), speak / treat the cabin crew as is done, have random people / pax in the cockpit, keep the cokpit door unlocked, have more people than is allocated seating positions for in the cockpit for take off, landing, or any other phase of flight..... Just read your SOPs and be honest with yourself as to if they are followed, that's all.
If the FAA found out what went on, what you think they would do? Now, if Star Alliance found out, what would they do as well to your national carrier's application - "invitation"?
So, back to the topic..... Kick out the foreigners to allow this culture to thrive!!!!! Could you imagine the outrage if India welcomed experince and standards? Yes, there are national guys up there with some of the best I've seen (both Cmdr and FO). But why not resource the best that is available, be they national or foreign?
Drive away a 10,000 hr Foreign FO expereinced on the type needed (random example) to replace with a 250 hr CPL National. Yeah, that makes sense. With your parents, wife, kids, grandparents on board, who would you rather up at the pointy end?
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Toptup , sorry to note that your experience with our flag carrier has left you which such a bitter taste, how ever I think your missing the BIG picture mate.
Just to enlighten those of you who are not aware , its not 10,000 hour weathered, experienced or compitent EXPAT first officers that India's airlines are employing .Its the 500 hours P- 68 C endorsed expat , willing to pay 8000 Euro's which is one half of his Type rating in USA ( the other half being put in by the company ) and also willing to sign a 3 year bond with the company worth another 5000 Euro's who are taking the place of the Indian nationals. Having said that I do not think that there is any significant difference between a Indian national with 300 hours and an Australian CPL ( waiting to convert to an Indian CPL )and a Finish bloke with 500 hrs and a JAA license in terms of professional skills. I for one just completed my check with a finish national with a similar experience level who for no apparent reason had been delayed by the company paper work for over 9 months after completion of his endorsement for a sim check( the guy was as good or bad as an indian would have been at that level of experience). I think its sucks big time and the whole aviation industry in India requires a REGULATORY body with no attachement towards the ministry.
I do not think like you said above that we are trying to resource the best first officer's if you consider someone with 10,000 hours of P2 time ( one would resonably expect that command come's a fair deal earlier considering the example you stated ) , would tell you something about the persons mental make up and his/her inablility to take responsibility !!! In short we are not getting the experienced F/o's that you mention for the simple fact that someone with the kind of " EXPERIENCE " would be aiming for his command not another job on the right seat. India is at the moment going through too much change too quickly, the DGCA is worsening the situation by revoking the new CAR for FDTL and invoking the older one prepared in 1992 !!! How crazy is that !!!
Anyways , hope this industry mature's quickly for everyone's sake.
Just my 2 paise worth.
cheers
vimd 23
Just to enlighten those of you who are not aware , its not 10,000 hour weathered, experienced or compitent EXPAT first officers that India's airlines are employing .Its the 500 hours P- 68 C endorsed expat , willing to pay 8000 Euro's which is one half of his Type rating in USA ( the other half being put in by the company ) and also willing to sign a 3 year bond with the company worth another 5000 Euro's who are taking the place of the Indian nationals. Having said that I do not think that there is any significant difference between a Indian national with 300 hours and an Australian CPL ( waiting to convert to an Indian CPL )and a Finish bloke with 500 hrs and a JAA license in terms of professional skills. I for one just completed my check with a finish national with a similar experience level who for no apparent reason had been delayed by the company paper work for over 9 months after completion of his endorsement for a sim check( the guy was as good or bad as an indian would have been at that level of experience). I think its sucks big time and the whole aviation industry in India requires a REGULATORY body with no attachement towards the ministry.
I do not think like you said above that we are trying to resource the best first officer's if you consider someone with 10,000 hours of P2 time ( one would resonably expect that command come's a fair deal earlier considering the example you stated ) , would tell you something about the persons mental make up and his/her inablility to take responsibility !!! In short we are not getting the experienced F/o's that you mention for the simple fact that someone with the kind of " EXPERIENCE " would be aiming for his command not another job on the right seat. India is at the moment going through too much change too quickly, the DGCA is worsening the situation by revoking the new CAR for FDTL and invoking the older one prepared in 1992 !!! How crazy is that !!!
Anyways , hope this industry mature's quickly for everyone's sake.
Just my 2 paise worth.
cheers
vimd 23
Last edited by Vimd23; 8th Jun 2008 at 08:22.