Missile fired at Israeli charter aircraft
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The Daily Mail carried what looked like a retouched photo of the Arkia 757 this morning, with two superimposed artists impressioned terrorists with SA-7 launchers added to the photo, but also interestingly had superimposed both chaff and flares under the rear of the plane.....artistic licence, or do they know something?
Re spotters keeping an eye out for suspicious people, it has amused me for years that our clay pigeon shooting club is directly under the final approach for EGSS R023 approx 2 miles from the threshhold - rest assured if anyone suspicious is lurking around in the woods here they won't be for long
At least we don't get many noise complaints
As a footnote, since you never know who is reading this, I would add that no guns are EVER left on the premises......
Re spotters keeping an eye out for suspicious people, it has amused me for years that our clay pigeon shooting club is directly under the final approach for EGSS R023 approx 2 miles from the threshhold - rest assured if anyone suspicious is lurking around in the woods here they won't be for long
At least we don't get many noise complaints
As a footnote, since you never know who is reading this, I would add that no guns are EVER left on the premises......
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Ignition Override:
People who train their children to be martyrs and who also live to murder civilians can make no claims to be moral, humane nor religious. Without conflicts, warlords lose their jobs and followers, and control over others' lives. This is true all over this miserable world, no matter what type of self-righteousness and superiority is promoted.
Absolutely perfect!
People who train their children to be martyrs and who also live to murder civilians can make no claims to be moral, humane nor religious. Without conflicts, warlords lose their jobs and followers, and control over others' lives. This is true all over this miserable world, no matter what type of self-righteousness and superiority is promoted.
Absolutely perfect!
Mmmmm PPruuune!
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Remember that this type of missile (fired by members of Nkomo's ZIPRA) tragically managed to down 2 Air Rhodesia Viscounts in the late 70s. One managed to forced land but the other crashed out of control. Having said that the Strella has a relatively small warhead and IMHO a single hit would be unlikely to down a modern twin fan with the engines being high bypass, podded and relatively isolated from the airframe, nevertheless if any more modern missiles were used that would be a different story. A close call and extremely worrying. Interesting to note that the Saudi Royal 747s & Emirates 747SP have IRCM fitted in the pylons behind each engine.
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Russian military specialists said in interview to the media that up to them there are two factors contributed 99,5% of failure:
1) 90% - heatseeking heads were not replaced, normally heads should be repleaced every 10 years, otherwise sharpness reducing and chances to hit non-military low-by-pass engines are not good enough.
2) 9,5% - terrorists were not professional enough to use SA-7
They allowed other 0,5% for good luck of Arkia's crew.
1) 90% - heatseeking heads were not replaced, normally heads should be repleaced every 10 years, otherwise sharpness reducing and chances to hit non-military low-by-pass engines are not good enough.
2) 9,5% - terrorists were not professional enough to use SA-7
They allowed other 0,5% for good luck of Arkia's crew.
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It is quite ironic that I made a posting on a current thread called 'Airport Security'. I felt that it was the perimeter areas around an airport that are the weakest link when it comes to airport security and it is the area that can be easily exploited by any terrorist. Security does not stop in the terminal, in fact just as much emphasis should be placed on what is going on outside the terminal. Airport perimeter areas are no exception.
ZbV
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Strelas
That launcher looked like a regular Strela 2or 2M to me. There are slight differences in comparison to the Strela 3. I got trained on the Strela (Arrow) (AKA SA-7B Grail and SA-14 Gremlin respectively) 2M and 3 when in the militray service. If my memory serves me right the warhead is only about 1kg or 3lbs.
Donīt know if they reloaded the launcher or used multiple units Reload time was quite long as you have to change several components before you are ready for another shot. Missile range is around 3 nm.
I have to agree with the Russian specialist that seeker as well as fuzing units where probably out of storage life and luckily did not function as designed.
These thing have been made in Russia, Pakistan, China and Egypt to name a few countries.
Donīt know if they reloaded the launcher or used multiple units Reload time was quite long as you have to change several components before you are ready for another shot. Missile range is around 3 nm.
I have to agree with the Russian specialist that seeker as well as fuzing units where probably out of storage life and luckily did not function as designed.
These thing have been made in Russia, Pakistan, China and Egypt to name a few countries.
ex-Tanker
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Calling all Spotters!
Nothing against you guys at all - I have often spent time chatting with the spotters to and from my place of work and marvelled at the huge telephoto lenses and state of the art radio equipment they use.
The problem is the facilities which are open - High car parks and terraces overlooking the airfield - parking and snack areas on short final (actually in ZRH on a couple of occasions there have been kites up there and once a guy gave a Jumbo swingover permission to the adjacent runway on his Sony 2-way. This to the consternation of ATC... but that sort of behaviour happens with or without the facilities)
The main point of the post wasn't the spotters but that we'd better get serious pretty quick. As has been pointed out on another thread, most of these places are not security checked.
As to how far around the field do you check - good question! Remember the IRA grenade launcher in the Excelsior car park at LHR, shooting over the A4 onto 27R?
Nothing against you guys at all - I have often spent time chatting with the spotters to and from my place of work and marvelled at the huge telephoto lenses and state of the art radio equipment they use.
The problem is the facilities which are open - High car parks and terraces overlooking the airfield - parking and snack areas on short final (actually in ZRH on a couple of occasions there have been kites up there and once a guy gave a Jumbo swingover permission to the adjacent runway on his Sony 2-way. This to the consternation of ATC... but that sort of behaviour happens with or without the facilities)
The main point of the post wasn't the spotters but that we'd better get serious pretty quick. As has been pointed out on another thread, most of these places are not security checked.
As to how far around the field do you check - good question! Remember the IRA grenade launcher in the Excelsior car park at LHR, shooting over the A4 onto 27R?
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How far do you go?
Most terrorists aren't that keen on being caught if they can avoid it - suicide or escape are much preferable. As such places that have lots of people hanging around are going to be less attractive than secluded areas which give time for escape before anyone realises what is happening. So maybe taking our frustrations out on Joe Spotter could prove to be counter productive!
Many years ago I read a pulp paperback that had the storyline that terrorists took a SAM7 launcher on to the roof of a tower block in London and shot down a DC10 with it, which then crashed onto Victoria Station in the rush hour. Much of the book was implausible, but I would think that the central theme was valid, given a fully serviceable missile launcher or suchlike in the hands of someone who knew how to use it. The story demonstrates 2 things - terrorists probably don't just get ideas from reading Pprune or watching CNN, and if you want a 100% successful sterile area around an airport you need to go many miles outside the perimeter.
Many years ago I read a pulp paperback that had the storyline that terrorists took a SAM7 launcher on to the roof of a tower block in London and shot down a DC10 with it, which then crashed onto Victoria Station in the rush hour. Much of the book was implausible, but I would think that the central theme was valid, given a fully serviceable missile launcher or suchlike in the hands of someone who knew how to use it. The story demonstrates 2 things - terrorists probably don't just get ideas from reading Pprune or watching CNN, and if you want a 100% successful sterile area around an airport you need to go many miles outside the perimeter.
Everything is under control.
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Airlines Warned of Missle Threat (from today's Washington Times)
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20021130-89153611.htm
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20021130-89153611.htm
Eight Gun Fighter
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El Al is believed to be the only civilian airline to have installed anti-missile defense systems, following FBI warnings six months
ago that commercial airliners could be targeted by al-Qaida terrorists firing portable surface-to-air missiles.
According to a report in the London Times on Friday, most airlines noted the warning but few took any action because of cost -
some $3 million per aircraft.
The system is said to be capable of sensing an approaching missile and deploying a false signal, usually a flare, to divert it.
Heat-seeking missiles, such as the SAM-7s that were fired at the Arkia plane in Kenya, are drawn to the flare and explode
harmlessly beyond the plane.
The report also notes that civilian airliners are harder to hit than military jets, despite being much larger, because they emit far
less heat.
The FBI issued its warning to civilian airlines after an attack on a US military jet at Dhahran in Saudi Arabia, this year. The
warning said that, "given al-Qaida's demonstrated objective to target the US airline industry, its access to US- and
Russian-made Man-Portable Air Defense Systems (MANPADS), and recent apparent targeting of US-led forces in Saudi
Arabia, law enforcement agencies in the US should remain alert to the potential use of MANPADS against US aircraft."
The Federal Aviation Administration has considered the feasibilty of equipping US civilian aircraft with missile protection, but it
concluded in 1999 that: "Since there have been no confirmed incidents in the US, it is difficult to convince aircraft manufacturers
and airlines of the potential cost benefits of making their aircraft less susceptible and less vulnerable to MANPADS through the
implementation of warning systems."
Philip Baum, the editor of Aviation Security International magazine, said that a $3 million defense system would add only 1.5
percent to the cost of a new Boeing 747.
"With every terrorist incident, we tend to assume further attacks will be of a similar nature," he said. "After September 11, all the
focus went on suicide hijackers getting into the cockpits. The response was to fit reinforced cockpit doors.
"But the new threat could be coming from a different direction. We need to look not only at the intent of a terrorist organization,
but what it is capable of doing in the future."
David Learmount, safety editor of Flight International magazine, was quoted as saying that the aviation industry has been aware
for decades that airliners are vulnerable to this kind of attack: "The question is why people haven't done it more often." But he
cautioned against calls for airlines to be forced to pay for expensive protection systems. "There are many other safety systems
queueing up to be installed on planes which would save many more lives," he said.
A British Airways source said: "We would never say never to this type of equipment, but our view at the moment is that it
belongs in the realm of highly sophisticated military fighter planes."
British Airways would have to spend half its $2.5 billion cash reserves to install the device on each of its 350 aircraft.
A source at Britain's Department for Transport said: "Technically, it is feasible to fit these devices, but it would be extremely
expensive and would not protect against all types of missile. We believe the best protection is good intelligence and security
around airport perimeters."
The Times noted that 100 soldiers traveling on civilian charter aircraft were killed in two attacks in Sri Lanka in 1995, and in
Afghanistan, 52 people died when a Bakhtar Afghan Airlines aircraft was shot down in 1985.
"Only El Al, Israel's national airline, is believed to have installed missile defense systems," it added.
JPost
ago that commercial airliners could be targeted by al-Qaida terrorists firing portable surface-to-air missiles.
According to a report in the London Times on Friday, most airlines noted the warning but few took any action because of cost -
some $3 million per aircraft.
The system is said to be capable of sensing an approaching missile and deploying a false signal, usually a flare, to divert it.
Heat-seeking missiles, such as the SAM-7s that were fired at the Arkia plane in Kenya, are drawn to the flare and explode
harmlessly beyond the plane.
The report also notes that civilian airliners are harder to hit than military jets, despite being much larger, because they emit far
less heat.
The FBI issued its warning to civilian airlines after an attack on a US military jet at Dhahran in Saudi Arabia, this year. The
warning said that, "given al-Qaida's demonstrated objective to target the US airline industry, its access to US- and
Russian-made Man-Portable Air Defense Systems (MANPADS), and recent apparent targeting of US-led forces in Saudi
Arabia, law enforcement agencies in the US should remain alert to the potential use of MANPADS against US aircraft."
The Federal Aviation Administration has considered the feasibilty of equipping US civilian aircraft with missile protection, but it
concluded in 1999 that: "Since there have been no confirmed incidents in the US, it is difficult to convince aircraft manufacturers
and airlines of the potential cost benefits of making their aircraft less susceptible and less vulnerable to MANPADS through the
implementation of warning systems."
Philip Baum, the editor of Aviation Security International magazine, said that a $3 million defense system would add only 1.5
percent to the cost of a new Boeing 747.
"With every terrorist incident, we tend to assume further attacks will be of a similar nature," he said. "After September 11, all the
focus went on suicide hijackers getting into the cockpits. The response was to fit reinforced cockpit doors.
"But the new threat could be coming from a different direction. We need to look not only at the intent of a terrorist organization,
but what it is capable of doing in the future."
David Learmount, safety editor of Flight International magazine, was quoted as saying that the aviation industry has been aware
for decades that airliners are vulnerable to this kind of attack: "The question is why people haven't done it more often." But he
cautioned against calls for airlines to be forced to pay for expensive protection systems. "There are many other safety systems
queueing up to be installed on planes which would save many more lives," he said.
A British Airways source said: "We would never say never to this type of equipment, but our view at the moment is that it
belongs in the realm of highly sophisticated military fighter planes."
British Airways would have to spend half its $2.5 billion cash reserves to install the device on each of its 350 aircraft.
A source at Britain's Department for Transport said: "Technically, it is feasible to fit these devices, but it would be extremely
expensive and would not protect against all types of missile. We believe the best protection is good intelligence and security
around airport perimeters."
The Times noted that 100 soldiers traveling on civilian charter aircraft were killed in two attacks in Sri Lanka in 1995, and in
Afghanistan, 52 people died when a Bakhtar Afghan Airlines aircraft was shot down in 1985.
"Only El Al, Israel's national airline, is believed to have installed missile defense systems," it added.
JPost
ZbV
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A race
Looks like this is developing into a race. Installing new equipement such as Electronic countermeasures ECM systems to commercial airliners will only make terrorists look for new ways to get to their goal that require a new way to counter it and this circle will go round and round.
What is needed is not technology to try to defend civil aircraft and civilians around the world, but tougher measures in dealing with this scum.
Political correctness needs to be forgotten completely and we need to look for the people that fit the profile of Al Qaeda terrorists. These people use our free society to advance their causes and offer suppor to Ossama A.sshole Bin Laden. A good example is a British based Syrian born Sheik (canīt remeber the full name). He is an open supporter of Bin Laden. It is people like this that need to be put under the microscope. But behold, the moment this is suggested Sheik and his kind will yell Racists. Strmage how this world works.
What is needed is not technology to try to defend civil aircraft and civilians around the world, but tougher measures in dealing with this scum.
Political correctness needs to be forgotten completely and we need to look for the people that fit the profile of Al Qaeda terrorists. These people use our free society to advance their causes and offer suppor to Ossama A.sshole Bin Laden. A good example is a British based Syrian born Sheik (canīt remeber the full name). He is an open supporter of Bin Laden. It is people like this that need to be put under the microscope. But behold, the moment this is suggested Sheik and his kind will yell Racists. Strmage how this world works.
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El Al is believed to be the only civilian airline to have installed anti-missile defense systems, following FBI warnings six months ago
Total Internal Reflection
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No chance
I just saw a report on ABC on possible terrorists' surface-to-air missile attacks in the US.
There is no chance in hell to defend against this type of attack, so it would be a complete waste of time and money to even try to defend against it.
I live just under the final for rwy17 at MCO and as I watch all those airliners on the final for landing.....they seem so hopelessly defenceless. The terrorists won't even need any sophisticated missiles: simple old fashioned granade launcher, machine guns, or even a NFL quarterback may even do the job for the planes on the final.
But what can we do about it? Absolutely nothing, in my opinion.
We were lucky that those terrorists who attacked the Israeli plane were just bad shots.:o
There is no chance in hell to defend against this type of attack, so it would be a complete waste of time and money to even try to defend against it.
I live just under the final for rwy17 at MCO and as I watch all those airliners on the final for landing.....they seem so hopelessly defenceless. The terrorists won't even need any sophisticated missiles: simple old fashioned granade launcher, machine guns, or even a NFL quarterback may even do the job for the planes on the final.
But what can we do about it? Absolutely nothing, in my opinion.
We were lucky that those terrorists who attacked the Israeli plane were just bad shots.:o
Was Bush traveling on Air Force One? Has he used it much in the last fifteen months, or at all on Sept 11-12th, '01....? It is such an obvious target. Who would look for him on a large cargo jet, or a very small one built in Wichita, KS? Did CAT's, SAT's, AA's or Intermountain Aviation's planes have clearly identifiable markings while operating with "sheep-dipped" engines and crews etc?
Came back to edit this for typos, but suddenly I hear very loud knocking on my door...excuse me wyv bn wife, rpu reymg an tell her that i e tpl wre dyvf to the et sta si buro
Came back to edit this for typos, but suddenly I hear very loud knocking on my door...excuse me wyv bn wife, rpu reymg an tell her that i e tpl wre dyvf to the et sta si buro
Last edited by Ignition Override; 2nd Dec 2002 at 04:33.
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I think he was refering to Clinton's golf game that man just loved to travel. Can tell you That Air Force One (the 747) will have counter measures, AF0ne is actually the call sign of any aircraft that POTUS is aboard.
Interestingly Clinton was in (cairns) Australia on 11/9, he gave a small speech before leaving for the states, was he flying commercial? no, he got into a C141.
Interestingly Clinton was in (cairns) Australia on 11/9, he gave a small speech before leaving for the states, was he flying commercial? no, he got into a C141.
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This months Airforce monthly reports on the Bae 146 CC.2 operated by 32 squadron has had a serious upgrade in its SAM countermeasures suite (reportedly seen in September of this year). I take it Tony et al will only be using this mode of air transport in future.