1 person in flight deck rule?
The pilot demographic suffer from suicide, suicide-ideation & depression at a higher rate than the general population. It’s covered in the Medical forum and the studies are available online.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Perth Australia
Age: 80
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Diil of F/O
I had a different scene, F/O goes to cabin, no cc available, needed to GO.
OK, BUT used the old door handle lock by I hope accident, Now he is in cabin, door is locked, no key as has been removed.
We had 2 deadbolts fitted to door which were open.
Guess who has to open the door.
No prises for guessing
OK, BUT used the old door handle lock by I hope accident, Now he is in cabin, door is locked, no key as has been removed.
We had 2 deadbolts fitted to door which were open.
Guess who has to open the door.
No prises for guessing
"higher rate than the general population"
How many aircraft events have there been in the last 20 yrs; how many resulted in fatalities.
How does this risk - a fatal outcome, compare with other risks in aviation ?
The risk probabilities could be sufficiently low not to warrant any special procedure, ALARP; particularly if the new procedure could introduce a low level hazard, but one which would be encountered much more frequently.
How many aircraft events have there been in the last 20 yrs; how many resulted in fatalities.
How does this risk - a fatal outcome, compare with other risks in aviation ?
The risk probabilities could be sufficiently low not to warrant any special procedure, ALARP; particularly if the new procedure could introduce a low level hazard, but one which would be encountered much more frequently.
From. SLF view one suicidal pilot would kill at max 450. ( when was the last proven one?) And if it's my flight hard cheese wrong place wrong time. However how many people die Worldwide due to single occupancy drivers that are Drunk, Drugs or even Medicalky incapacitated. ??.
However for the inconvenience of a CC occupying the jump seat with a override door unlock switch that does give Passengers and the Airlines a simple another level of security...
Q When was the last successful Hijack of a Airliner??
However for the inconvenience of a CC occupying the jump seat with a override door unlock switch that does give Passengers and the Airlines a simple another level of security...
Q When was the last successful Hijack of a Airliner??
Do you think the German wings f/o would have crashed it if the captain hadn't decided to take a slash? Was it an opportune moment for him or had he been waiting a while to do it as it's not very often on short haul flights that either of the pilots take a slash. I do think an FA on the flight deck is a good idea. Most failures on-board an aircraft have tiny little risk factors so even a pilot incapacitation while one is in the bog, is an infinitesimal risk, having an FA there provides redundancy of alerting the out of office pilot and head not coming back to a fd in chaos.
Do you think the German wings f/o would have crashed it if the captain hadn't decided to take a slash? Was it an opportune moment for him or had he been waiting a while to do it as it's not very often on short haul flights that either of the pilots take a slash. I do think an FA on the flight deck is a good idea. Most failures on-board an aircraft have tiny little risk factors so even a pilot incapacitation while one is in the bog, is an infinitesimal risk, having an FA there provides redundancy of alerting the out of office pilot and head not coming back to a fd in chaos.
When deciding policy, those accountable have to examine all the factors they can reasonably think of, and in my outfit they decided against implementation of this rule probably because in the cold light of day it didn’t really add up and was seen as security theatre (or making the situation worse). There is also the fact that you are taking CC out of service, possibly at a busy time and you have one less person to monitor and/or perform SEP functions in the cabin. All that has to be added up and weighed against alternatives.
I was told that having a FA up front when one pilot leaves is to have someone there to open fortified door if the remaining pilot becomes incapacitated for whatever reason. Yes I am fully aware of the keypad on the outside of the door that is supposed to unlock door.
Maybe. But what’s the risk of a recently recruited or “sleeper” CC using that opportunity to do their own bit of suiciding or hijacking? Much easier with only one pilot in the cockpit who’s facing forward and strapped in...
When deciding policy, those accountable have to examine all the factors they can reasonably think of, and in my outfit they decided against implementation of this rule probably because in the cold light of day it didn’t really add up and was seen as security theatre (or making the situation worse). There is also the fact that you are taking CC out of service, possibly at a busy time and you have one less person to monitor and/or perform SEP functions in the cabin. All that has to be added up and weighed against alternatives.
When deciding policy, those accountable have to examine all the factors they can reasonably think of, and in my outfit they decided against implementation of this rule probably because in the cold light of day it didn’t really add up and was seen as security theatre (or making the situation worse). There is also the fact that you are taking CC out of service, possibly at a busy time and you have one less person to monitor and/or perform SEP functions in the cabin. All that has to be added up and weighed against alternatives.
Yep, agreed.
There’s tendency to get fixated on one threat to the exclusion of all else. I think a lot of the thinking is out in the public domain now, so I think it’s safe to say having an FA on the flight deck raises issues all of it’s own that may actually not lead to an improvement in safety and security..in fact in some circumstance it might increase risks.
Hence the decision by (most?) regulators to allow airlines to make their own policy.
https://flightsafety.org/two-in-the-cockpit/
Be interesting to see if the support shown in this thread for the CC to babysit the remaining pilot is coming from pilots, management types or SLF
Personally can’t understand why any pilot would be in favour of this SOP.
Personally can’t understand why any pilot would be in favour of this SOP.
Strange things happen, you know. People can sometimes spontaneously spasm and swallow their tongue, to be a bit ludicrous.
It's always good to have a second person close at hand. I can't think of any task where a 2nd party is a hindrance (unless they're a total muppet and hindering the job, but that's a personnel problem, not a concept problem.)
Oddly derogatory to a safety of life role to call it 'babysitting'
Strange things happen, you know. People can sometimes spontaneously spasm and swallow their tongue, to be a bit ludicrous.
It's always good to have a second person close at hand. I can't think of any task where a 2nd party is a hindrance (unless they're a total muppet and hindering the job, but that's a personnel problem, not a concept problem.)
Strange things happen, you know. People can sometimes spontaneously spasm and swallow their tongue, to be a bit ludicrous.
It's always good to have a second person close at hand. I can't think of any task where a 2nd party is a hindrance (unless they're a total muppet and hindering the job, but that's a personnel problem, not a concept problem.)
The chances of the remaining crew member falling over, having a fit or some other random theory I’ve seen posted is so remote you’ve more chance of being struck by lightning.
More so, even if any these ridiculous theories did come to pass then you’ve got the added safety barrier of the emergency access code.
Thankfully our lot don’t require us to be looked after by the crew, although it was a temporary procedure after Germanwings, the company thankfully were grown up enough to trust their workforce.
To those supporting this policy, what do you think the remaining pilot does when joined by the CC member? Continues full Person Monitoring duties, or pays less attention to the aforementioned and chats to CC member?
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It’s an inconvenience, you can dress it up as safety all you like and try and justify it.
The chances of the remaining crew member falling over, having a fit or some other random theory I’ve seen posted is so remote you’ve more chance of being struck by lightning.
.
The chances of the remaining crew member falling over, having a fit or some other random theory I’ve seen posted is so remote you’ve more chance of being struck by lightning.
.
Another 1 person in flight deck rule that goes back long before the security measures following 9|11 and German wings events.
Mid 1980's in a B737-200 en route from a tiny island in the Pacific to Guam, 3.5 hour sector, having departed around 2 AM. Captain is to this day a very frequent contributor to PPrune always banging on about safety and superior airmanship. So Captain leaves flight deck after about 90 mins in cruise for whatever, he is famous for going back to chat looking all resplendent in his bars and stripes etc. At that time the company requirement was that above F250 sole occupant was required to don dangling oxygen mask until rejoined by colleague. So carrying on solo, working with Oakland centre on HF, carrying out PNRs and CPs, en route alternates weather update, fuel checks etc, for over 60 mins, contacting Guam on VHF, giving CC 30 mins warning and initiating descent our Captain arrives back passing F150 with 2 very large Pacific Islanders reeking of the good oil. Imagine getting these 2 strapped into the jump seats of a 737-200, no briefing, not going to be any quick evacuation if needed, but by 8000' Captain takes over, its after 5 AM and he goes into his Captain Bligh mode, barking orders and goes on to make an appalling approach and landing.
I believe the F250 oxygen mask rule was a Boeing recommendation, I doubt they ever intended for crew to be absent for more than a few minutes.
Mid 1980's in a B737-200 en route from a tiny island in the Pacific to Guam, 3.5 hour sector, having departed around 2 AM. Captain is to this day a very frequent contributor to PPrune always banging on about safety and superior airmanship. So Captain leaves flight deck after about 90 mins in cruise for whatever, he is famous for going back to chat looking all resplendent in his bars and stripes etc. At that time the company requirement was that above F250 sole occupant was required to don dangling oxygen mask until rejoined by colleague. So carrying on solo, working with Oakland centre on HF, carrying out PNRs and CPs, en route alternates weather update, fuel checks etc, for over 60 mins, contacting Guam on VHF, giving CC 30 mins warning and initiating descent our Captain arrives back passing F150 with 2 very large Pacific Islanders reeking of the good oil. Imagine getting these 2 strapped into the jump seats of a 737-200, no briefing, not going to be any quick evacuation if needed, but by 8000' Captain takes over, its after 5 AM and he goes into his Captain Bligh mode, barking orders and goes on to make an appalling approach and landing.
I believe the F250 oxygen mask rule was a Boeing recommendation, I doubt they ever intended for crew to be absent for more than a few minutes.
