Virgin Atlantic pilots consider strike over fatigue
Rage, I asked the same question on 20th May. Deafening silence. Astureus askes the question in his thread opener way back in time .- No response. One bod on here, even talks about doing 23 years with VA or Vs or whatever until finally seeing the light and leaving. Gosh !
When Air Europe went bust,I was given the chance to join but told that I needed to pop along to Crawley Sim Central and buy myself the B747 rating. Then, come back and try again. Wish I had sold the house, sold the wife & kids, sold the Mini Cooper and Volvo Estate and given the lot to Crawley Sim United (or whatever), might have enjoyed a fabbo 30 years on the really big beast and would have thanked Richard every day, gone to Nikka Island for naughties and never even contemplated strike action. Ever . Damn. Blew it !
Might now be retired and living in cyprus. Oh, hang on !
When Air Europe went bust,I was given the chance to join but told that I needed to pop along to Crawley Sim Central and buy myself the B747 rating. Then, come back and try again. Wish I had sold the house, sold the wife & kids, sold the Mini Cooper and Volvo Estate and given the lot to Crawley Sim United (or whatever), might have enjoyed a fabbo 30 years on the really big beast and would have thanked Richard every day, gone to Nikka Island for naughties and never even contemplated strike action. Ever . Damn. Blew it !
Might now be retired and living in cyprus. Oh, hang on !
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Akrapovik : Thanks. That's me told ! Bort, had you replied with such clarity to Astureas in 2023, me and others could have put the pop-corn away for better fun.
Private forums, heavily controlled by the Unions and keeping the dirty linen out of the public eye on public forums is just brilliant. Gagging for the good of the compliant.
Sheer brilliance. Really. Love it.
Private forums, heavily controlled by the Unions and keeping the dirty linen out of the public eye on public forums is just brilliant. Gagging for the good of the compliant.
Sheer brilliance. Really. Love it.
I have followed many threads on PPRuNe regarding the friction between flight crew and airline management.
Why is there this seeming lack of trust ? Pilots referring to managers as 'bean counters' and only looking at short term benefits. The pilots stating that fatigue is becoming a major safety issue, really ?
A recent thread compared plane and train unions citing 'safety issues' when really it had nothing to do with safety but just a bargaining chip to try and get the publics sympathy for what is really just wage and benefits negotiation.
I am a retired Master Mariner who served on British flag Very Large Crude Carriers (VLCC's), and then became an ocean freight logistics manager for a fleet of over deep sea 400 vessels.
In all my time at sea we never once used the 'safety' gimmick to try and obtain better conditions.
In fact in all my time at sea we officers never undertook industrial action. Similarly, there were no industrial disputes on our time chartered fleet.
Are airline pilots a superior breed that need to be mollycoddled, and always to be at the throats of their airlines?
Or are the airlines really that bad to work for?
What happened to mutual trust and appreciation ?
I don't know,! Can someone help me understand.?
Swiss Steve
Why is there this seeming lack of trust ? Pilots referring to managers as 'bean counters' and only looking at short term benefits. The pilots stating that fatigue is becoming a major safety issue, really ?
A recent thread compared plane and train unions citing 'safety issues' when really it had nothing to do with safety but just a bargaining chip to try and get the publics sympathy for what is really just wage and benefits negotiation.
I am a retired Master Mariner who served on British flag Very Large Crude Carriers (VLCC's), and then became an ocean freight logistics manager for a fleet of over deep sea 400 vessels.
In all my time at sea we never once used the 'safety' gimmick to try and obtain better conditions.
In fact in all my time at sea we officers never undertook industrial action. Similarly, there were no industrial disputes on our time chartered fleet.
Are airline pilots a superior breed that need to be mollycoddled, and always to be at the throats of their airlines?
Or are the airlines really that bad to work for?
What happened to mutual trust and appreciation ?
I don't know,! Can someone help me understand.?
Swiss Steve
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Thread Starter
I would say tho that if you strike for fatigue reasons then you should only accept a cut in hours - not more money to keep the same rostering
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I believe that "rather emotional fellow" was not, in fact, "emotional", but much rather genuinely aggrieved at the particularly mendacious defamation to his professional peers that he had suffered from the direction of local BALPA council Vice Chair. The aforementioned officer was litigated, issued a formal admission of his falsehoods, an apology, and monetary compensation.
Said apology was published on the forum to correct the defamation, yet the VACC Chairman doubled down with a reply of further slurs on the "emotional fellow" whilst pulling all BALPA engagement on forum and blaming the "emotional fellow" for that decision.
That is why the forum has died a death.
Said apology was published on the forum to correct the defamation, yet the VACC Chairman doubled down with a reply of further slurs on the "emotional fellow" whilst pulling all BALPA engagement on forum and blaming the "emotional fellow" for that decision.
That is why the forum has died a death.
Last edited by NAT Zulu; 6th Jun 2024 at 12:30.
Shame really. Why on earth can we (professional pilots) and they (Management) ever not get married and live happily together ? I have no wish to creep the thread off the Opener's genuine request for information but it appears a human trait to herd, group, form alliances, gangs etc from school playground to final passing. I guess we earthlings will never be able to alter that.
Laker tried. I left BA partly because of heavy -handed Union control. Fred insisted he would never go down the Union control alley and a pretty happy outfit existed for years.. Management doors really were open. The two sections, in my limited time there, never went head-to head in any contention. It was all thrashed out at much lower levels before any name calling or legal threats.
Air Europe started with same ideology. Worked well. Regular Pilot/Management meets sorted out quickly any problems, nothing allowed to fester until.........oh gosh, ........After Management infiltration by a big influx of temporarily seconded staff, friendly chats abandoned, and clear direction towards Union association was mandated. All went down-hill, very rapidly until the company's demise anyway.
Any really happy non-union outfits still out there ? Might have to start a new thread.
Laker tried. I left BA partly because of heavy -handed Union control. Fred insisted he would never go down the Union control alley and a pretty happy outfit existed for years.. Management doors really were open. The two sections, in my limited time there, never went head-to head in any contention. It was all thrashed out at much lower levels before any name calling or legal threats.
Air Europe started with same ideology. Worked well. Regular Pilot/Management meets sorted out quickly any problems, nothing allowed to fester until.........oh gosh, ........After Management infiltration by a big influx of temporarily seconded staff, friendly chats abandoned, and clear direction towards Union association was mandated. All went down-hill, very rapidly until the company's demise anyway.
Any really happy non-union outfits still out there ? Might have to start a new thread.
Absolutely. The VACC then refused to engage with any of the workforce because of that set to. So again there’s no comms for non-union members, which is ironic as half of the VACC had berated their predecessors for doing the same in the days of the same with the PPU (ahhh such simpler times),
Sorry for the thread drift.
Sorry for the thread drift.
Last edited by Dunhovrin; 8th Jun 2024 at 04:57.
Modern FRMS controls, regulations and recurrent training along with the ANO and SOPs should.... be enough to halt a need to strike just to attract attention. It works well in many airlines in the west.
What's happened is that some companies are no longer interested in making the widget or providing the service that they started out with. They are now only interested in making money.
Obviously any company needs to reduce waste and overheads as much as is reasonable, and be as efficient as possible, but when they start treating the staff as pieces of machinery as well, they have gone too far.
We've seen this happen disastrously in Boeing, but many other companies are similarly pursuing maximum profit and minimum staff and R & D costs, not caring how unhappy their staff are.
Which is a shame, because when staff are respected as humans and treated and remunerated properly for their time and their skills, the company becomes much greater than the sum of its parts. A happy workforce increases overall company performance.
I have worked in a (non airline) company where we were treated and paid very well, and on the rare occasions when something big and unforeseen needed to happen, either late into the early hours, or over the weekend; we were motivated to get on with it and made it happen. I once was on duty for 36 hours, making an installation work, with only about 4 hours sleep in an armchair.
But I have also worked for companies who did not respect their own workforce, and expected them to work on Christmas day etc for no extra money, and to whom the phone was not answered if they called when I was off duty.
Very sad. And unnecessary.
If bosses respect and treat their staff well - as they would treat their own family - their company will prosper. The staff are your very best asset and your best advertisement. If treated well, and respected, your staff will be a powerful and positive force which will improve your company profits.
Obviously any company needs to reduce waste and overheads as much as is reasonable, and be as efficient as possible, but when they start treating the staff as pieces of machinery as well, they have gone too far.
We've seen this happen disastrously in Boeing, but many other companies are similarly pursuing maximum profit and minimum staff and R & D costs, not caring how unhappy their staff are.
Which is a shame, because when staff are respected as humans and treated and remunerated properly for their time and their skills, the company becomes much greater than the sum of its parts. A happy workforce increases overall company performance.
I have worked in a (non airline) company where we were treated and paid very well, and on the rare occasions when something big and unforeseen needed to happen, either late into the early hours, or over the weekend; we were motivated to get on with it and made it happen. I once was on duty for 36 hours, making an installation work, with only about 4 hours sleep in an armchair.
But I have also worked for companies who did not respect their own workforce, and expected them to work on Christmas day etc for no extra money, and to whom the phone was not answered if they called when I was off duty.
Very sad. And unnecessary.
If bosses respect and treat their staff well - as they would treat their own family - their company will prosper. The staff are your very best asset and your best advertisement. If treated well, and respected, your staff will be a powerful and positive force which will improve your company profits.
Uplinker : you make important points and comparisons. There are some great employers out there. There are those companies and organisations that expect high performance at all times. The businesses where the pressure is on. Financial services may work you so hard at partner level that you simply burn out and retire, wealthy, in your 50's. Think Hong Kong. Junior Doctors are expected to tow the line of the " firm" and follow the boss in order to progress in medicine. A barrister in pupillage is expected to work through the day and night to get stuff done and to progress a career. Airlines protect their crews with fatigue risk management. As we know, fatigue is distinct from tiredness. Aircrew are historically famous for trying to get away with a commute before and after duty. It is now much more controlled.
Thread Starter
Agree with Uplinker - I've seen all points on that spectrum.
I would say the ones where management are consistent and show they abide by the same rules and examples are the ones that get the best reaction from the employees.
I would say the ones where management are consistent and show they abide by the same rules and examples are the ones that get the best reaction from the employees.
