Virgin Atlantic pilots consider strike over fatigue
How come some office worker, who works maximum 8 hr days (or there is trouble), was able to make the law that it's alright for flight crew to work an 18 hr day............When you're done, drag your bags down the road to a cheap hotel and make sure you're back here in 17hrs to do it all over again. After 168 hrs of this, you can take 36 hrs off. I know your other mates get 48hrs every 120 hrs but this is EASA, you know.
Seriously?.... How in hell did it get to where we are today when it's legal for me to work in the aeroplane for 18 hrs and Mr EASA does 8 in his office?
Seriously?.... How in hell did it get to where we are today when it's legal for me to work in the aeroplane for 18 hrs and Mr EASA does 8 in his office?
Big money is what happened: CEOs job is to continually cut operating costs, and crews are expensive because they have to be highly trained, highly proficient and highly skilled - you can't just take someone from the job centre and give them a day's induction course.
So if they can 'get away with' using one crew instead of two crews, they will.
This is why we need to stand up for ourselves. Unfortunately - certainly in the UK - the union and the company councils have clearly been nobbled. Strike action is very rarely taken and rarely even considered. EASA FTLs were just nodded in, and all our union does is talk about things. They never actually do anything. They just talk about fatigue, but never do anything about fatigue.
I mean; "controlled rest", i.e. taking a 20 minute nap sitting in your pilot seat, is a real thing !! That is a blatant admission that crews are fatigued - right there.
Can you imagine if a surgeon, in the middle of an operation; with the patient's chest wide open and tubes everywhere; said to his 'junior' doctor alongside him, "jeez, I am so tired, I cannot keep my eyes open any longer. I am going to take controlled rest", and he sits down with his eyes closed for 20 mins, while all the other doctors just stand around and wait; keeping an eye on the patient's pulse and oxygen levels etc. Utterly ludicrous.
Last edited by Uplinker; 7th Jan 2024 at 12:00.
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+1, or in fact +100.
Big money is what happened: CEOs job is to continually cut operating costs, and crews are expensive because they have to be highly trained, highly proficient and highly skilled - you can't just take someone from the job centre and give them a day's induction course.
So if they can 'get away with' using one crew instead of two crews, they will.
This is why we need to stand up for ourselves. Unfortunately - certainly in the UK - the union and the company councils have clearly been nobbled. Strike action is very rarely taken and rarely even considered. EASA FTLs were just nodded in, and all our union does is talk about things. They never actually do anything. They just talk about fatigue, but never do anything about fatigue.
I mean; "controlled rest", i.e. taking a 20 minute nap sitting in your pilot seat, is a real thing !! That is a blatant admission that crews are fatigued - right there.
Can you imagine if a surgeon, in the middle of an operation; with the patient's chest wide open and tubes everywhere; said to his 'junior' doctor alongside him, "jeez, I am so tired, I cannot keep my eyes open any longer. I am going to take controlled rest", and he sits down with his eyes closed for 20 mins, while all the other doctors just stand around and wait; keeping an eye on the patient's pulse and oxygen levels etc. Utterly ludicrous.
Big money is what happened: CEOs job is to continually cut operating costs, and crews are expensive because they have to be highly trained, highly proficient and highly skilled - you can't just take someone from the job centre and give them a day's induction course.
So if they can 'get away with' using one crew instead of two crews, they will.
This is why we need to stand up for ourselves. Unfortunately - certainly in the UK - the union and the company councils have clearly been nobbled. Strike action is very rarely taken and rarely even considered. EASA FTLs were just nodded in, and all our union does is talk about things. They never actually do anything. They just talk about fatigue, but never do anything about fatigue.
I mean; "controlled rest", i.e. taking a 20 minute nap sitting in your pilot seat, is a real thing !! That is a blatant admission that crews are fatigued - right there.
Can you imagine if a surgeon, in the middle of an operation; with the patient's chest wide open and tubes everywhere; said to his 'junior' doctor alongside him, "jeez, I am so tired, I cannot keep my eyes open any longer. I am going to take controlled rest", and he sits down with his eyes closed for 20 mins, while all the other doctors just stand around and wait; keeping an eye on the patient's pulse and oxygen levels etc. Utterly ludicrous.
EASA FTL - all the UK AOC ever wanted was a level playing field had they not switched to EASA FTL how many UK would be left?. Many of the UK AOC left in either Industrial agreements or FRM agreements when EASA FTL came in. You could argue the previous yearly block hour agreement VS had was a fatigue mitigation also.
One thing for sure where EASA FTL is completely different to CAP371 is that it's so much easier for crews to swap duties - under CAP371 particularly the (archaic) days off rules it was impossible to swap - now it seems to be the in thing. As you know when it comes to swaps or flying on days off for $$$ Fatigue goes out the window - Nb I'm only joking, sort of.
Yes. Sadly that is where so many pilots shot themselves in the foot. They cannot argue fatigue and lack of rest if: when Ops rings up and says they have a bit of a situation and would you be willing to fly tomorrow on your day off for £500 ? And they say yes I will do it.
We - (they) - really need to wok to rule to start with; no overtime etc., and if that doesn't make things easier then strike action must be considered - it is the only defence we have. Talking about it and fatigue monitoring etc. does not cut it.
We - (they) - really need to wok to rule to start with; no overtime etc., and if that doesn't make things easier then strike action must be considered - it is the only defence we have. Talking about it and fatigue monitoring etc. does not cut it.
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The real villains here are the CAA and BALPA. Maybe a Parliamentary inquiry into the role of the CAA is required. Has anyone ever heard if the CAA has ever prosecuted any airline for fatigue or FDP abuse?
Nope, it was idiots like Brian Simpson MEP, who didn’t actually know what he was talking about when sat on the relevant committees. His argument to me was he had a SME. She was an ex BASSA rep.
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Over my career I've seen the number of UK AOC dwindle to all but a few from 'the good old days' when crews flew harder and there was no such thing as fatigue.
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Would be difficult to prosecute an airline over fatigue abuse as long as any AOC complies with the FTL. FDP abuse I once joined a very big airline and almost immediately was down at the CAA with the Directors and told sort it within 6 months or lose your AOC. The CAA have also gone after Crew for having two flying jobs.
Over my career I've seen the number of UK AOC dwindle to all but a few from 'the good old days' when crews flew harder and there was no such thing as fatigue.
Over my career I've seen the number of UK AOC dwindle to all but a few from 'the good old days' when crews flew harder and there was no such thing as fatigue.
Balpa and the CAA are two cherished (!) British aviation institutions that have not been fit for purpose for a very long time, if ever. One a well trodden route to the management structure and the other a time serving bunch of bureaucrats also looking to hop back into industry at a management level. Seen it all before. I am also ex Virgin and I can confirm that the endless time zone changes have a very debilitating affect on personal health. However, Safety is our biggest priority. Hilarious.
Interesting that the insidious creep of “part-time” hasn’t been mentioned.
I suspect “fatigue” and “lifestyle” have played a significant part in many pilots opting to go “part-time”.
I put “part-time” in inverted commas deliberately.
Not that long ago, prior to “part-time” being a provision, established UK airlines “full-time” contracts were around 600 flying hours per year?
Fast forward to now: 75% part-time (a common part-time provision) of 900 hours is MORE than “full-time” hours used to be (but being paid less of course).
Had “part-time” not been available I wonder how many more would be kicking off about “fatigue”?
I’m sure if 900 hours had been introduced overnight (combined with, in Shorthaul, FTLs that bumped early four sector days to 12h duties) in the days prior to “part-time” being available that the issue of “fatigue” would be a much louder one as many have voluntarily taken a hit to cope with it, but should they have had to?
I suspect “fatigue” and “lifestyle” have played a significant part in many pilots opting to go “part-time”.
I put “part-time” in inverted commas deliberately.
Not that long ago, prior to “part-time” being a provision, established UK airlines “full-time” contracts were around 600 flying hours per year?
Fast forward to now: 75% part-time (a common part-time provision) of 900 hours is MORE than “full-time” hours used to be (but being paid less of course).
Had “part-time” not been available I wonder how many more would be kicking off about “fatigue”?
I’m sure if 900 hours had been introduced overnight (combined with, in Shorthaul, FTLs that bumped early four sector days to 12h duties) in the days prior to “part-time” being available that the issue of “fatigue” would be a much louder one as many have voluntarily taken a hit to cope with it, but should they have had to?
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Flight Safety is a myth
Ask almost any pilot operating commercially full time. They are continually exhausted. I was, until I stopped. Took about 3 years to resume normal sleep patterns.
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Put it this way: In a one-month sample, there were 9.. YES 9 FDPs that had less basis in reality than Hogwarts. I'm not sure what the difference is between' bent', 'falsified', 'manipulated', or 'massaged' Twiggy.
8 years after retirement and a brush with Covid, my sleep patterns are still buggered. If I get six hours a night I am doing well. Other than that I remain reasonably fit.
I didn't go to the bitter end - bailed out at 62 - best thing I ever did.
Belonged to BALPA for 20plus years - never had to use them. Always believed that their modus operandi centred around BA - I remain of that opinion.
I believe there is a significant difference between being tired and being fatigued - the tricky part is working out if you are one or the other. My final employer pushed the boundaries, especially for those who elected for part-time contracts but on a day to day basis, a fatigue report was not questioned and if a colleague called the same, then it was not a problem.
Most pilot managers ( there were honourable exceptions ) crossed a divide when they went into management and began their climb up a slippery slope.
One thing I did discover is that you don't need anything like as much income in retirement as BFS would have you believe. Forget the ads featuring youthful pensioners with their goatee beards and blonde wives with their size eight figures - it ain't like that !
I didn't go to the bitter end - bailed out at 62 - best thing I ever did.
Belonged to BALPA for 20plus years - never had to use them. Always believed that their modus operandi centred around BA - I remain of that opinion.
I believe there is a significant difference between being tired and being fatigued - the tricky part is working out if you are one or the other. My final employer pushed the boundaries, especially for those who elected for part-time contracts but on a day to day basis, a fatigue report was not questioned and if a colleague called the same, then it was not a problem.
Most pilot managers ( there were honourable exceptions ) crossed a divide when they went into management and began their climb up a slippery slope.
One thing I did discover is that you don't need anything like as much income in retirement as BFS would have you believe. Forget the ads featuring youthful pensioners with their goatee beards and blonde wives with their size eight figures - it ain't like that !