MH17 down near Donetsk
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about explosive decompression
pder aspra .---- "
NO . explosive decompression wherein the plane blows apart like a ballon is essentially a myth. While a large ( assume a door blows out- which wont happen ) hole would result in a RAPID decompression, and possibly sweep debris and even a person or two out the hole, absent other damage , the plane would be structurally intact. In the extreme, control problems ( cables as in dc-10 over paris years ago ) or similar would eventually bring plane down, mostly in one piece till it hit the ground.
Comparisons to the Brit Comet in the 50's are no longer valid for a variety of reasons, mostly having to do with better fatuigue analysis, built in crack stoppers, major doublers around critical areas,, etc etc etc.
But since the available photos and best knowledge to date make it clear a missile hit near the cockpit,, and the plane at high altitude, just the speed and air drag would be enough to cause a zipper like damage and the resulting ' cartwheeling at enough g levels to finsh the job.
FWIW the above simplified analysis is MY considered opinion, and partly a result of my background in aerospace- commerical airplane manufacturing of large aircraft, plus a long time interest in why things fail ...
And one might look up a mythbuster video wherein they took an boneyard jet airplane, put in temporary bulkheads, pressured it up to the same differential pressure at altitude- and exploded a major hole in the cabin area with dummys in seats, etc.
A large hole there and would explosive decompression have broken the cockpit away
Comparisons to the Brit Comet in the 50's are no longer valid for a variety of reasons, mostly having to do with better fatuigue analysis, built in crack stoppers, major doublers around critical areas,, etc etc etc.
But since the available photos and best knowledge to date make it clear a missile hit near the cockpit,, and the plane at high altitude, just the speed and air drag would be enough to cause a zipper like damage and the resulting ' cartwheeling at enough g levels to finsh the job.
FWIW the above simplified analysis is MY considered opinion, and partly a result of my background in aerospace- commerical airplane manufacturing of large aircraft, plus a long time interest in why things fail ...
And one might look up a mythbuster video wherein they took an boneyard jet airplane, put in temporary bulkheads, pressured it up to the same differential pressure at altitude- and exploded a major hole in the cabin area with dummys in seats, etc.
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ECA Statement
ECA now criticising the intelligence agencies from the countries who's airlines did not fly over the Ukraine for not sharing essential information. Text in English below.
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/sites/defaul...0dangerous.pdf
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/sites/defaul...0dangerous.pdf
@SadPole,
Wrote
The whole conflict is bonkers! Both sides make claims of taking and holding territory and in the war of propaganda they turn out to be innacurate or complete propaganda. The key here is the stripe/stencil on the truck/trailer. It is obviously not in Ukrainian hands due to the same truck/trailer with Buk being imaged in Torez. Will you be claiming that this is also doctored?
A run down for those following the events.
The Russians during the MH17 brief highlighted the Buk with missng missile video and claimed that it was taken in Krasnoarmeysk (Ukrainian Government control).
Putin won't be happy! Looks like there is going to be some Generals on Putin's carpet with hats on after this blunder!
Some excellent internet slueths out there. The Russians failed to double check and simply took the claims straight off social media.
Screenshot from the Russian brief.
The reality is that the Ukrainians were telling the truth when they stated that the video was taken in separatist controlled territory. The video was filmed in Lugansk.
See following link for larger image.
http://std3.ru/de/2e/1406044749-de2e...cb666333f.jpeg
Links to area in Lugansk
https://goo.gl/maps/2zUZi
https://www.google.com/maps/@48.5447.../data=!3m1!1e3
Obviously the ground images used are historic and the blue billboard in the foreground does not show the current Bogdan Autos advert.
The following image is taken in July 2014 and shows that the blue billboard in Luhansk has the current advert.
Facebook post from Ukrainian Minister of Internal affairs, Arsen Avakov, on the 19th July stating that the video was taken in Lugansk.
Original video of Buk on trailer.
Link to map of area
https://www.metabunk.org/sk/Google_E...2_12-52-24.jpg
From
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/cla...-3#post-117620
See following link for compilation of Buk recorded activity in Ukraine.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/cla...-ukraine.3977/
Russian MH17 briefing with Buk missile video portion at 25:00
Wrote
This is completely bonkers. Obviously the photo is old, doctored, or it is Ukrainian troops moving the missile launcher.
A run down for those following the events.
The Russians during the MH17 brief highlighted the Buk with missng missile video and claimed that it was taken in Krasnoarmeysk (Ukrainian Government control).
Putin won't be happy! Looks like there is going to be some Generals on Putin's carpet with hats on after this blunder!
Some excellent internet slueths out there. The Russians failed to double check and simply took the claims straight off social media.
Screenshot from the Russian brief.
The reality is that the Ukrainians were telling the truth when they stated that the video was taken in separatist controlled territory. The video was filmed in Lugansk.
See following link for larger image.
http://std3.ru/de/2e/1406044749-de2e...cb666333f.jpeg
Links to area in Lugansk
https://goo.gl/maps/2zUZi
https://www.google.com/maps/@48.5447.../data=!3m1!1e3
Obviously the ground images used are historic and the blue billboard in the foreground does not show the current Bogdan Autos advert.
The following image is taken in July 2014 and shows that the blue billboard in Luhansk has the current advert.
Facebook post from Ukrainian Minister of Internal affairs, Arsen Avakov, on the 19th July stating that the video was taken in Lugansk.
Original video of Buk on trailer.
Link to map of area
https://www.metabunk.org/sk/Google_E...2_12-52-24.jpg
From
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/cla...-3#post-117620
See following link for compilation of Buk recorded activity in Ukraine.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/cla...-ukraine.3977/
Russian MH17 briefing with Buk missile video portion at 25:00
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Pictures or it didn't happen
What do we have?
* claims of looting, removal of evidence etc originating with allegations from Kiev, who had nobody anywhere near there to know one way or the other
* claims from one OSCE source that they saw one piece being cut, blow up to allegations of removing a lot of parts (up to and including the fuselage??? these OSCE people think when a plane crashes from that height the fuselage will just lie there in one piece? what do they think all that burned up stuff is?
* with all that photography going on, nobody's caught a truck filled with aircraft scrap metal going anywhere
* a lot of screaming about "destroying evidence" accompanied by even louder demands for respectful treatment of the bodies.......... while the bodies were being decently found, marked, bagged and taken into refrigerated storage. No "experts" turned up in 12 hours (or 48) with refrigerated vans, body bags, gloves, masks or even crime scene tape, did they? nor is there any global organization who have monopoly rights to picking up dead bodies at air crash locations. They are ALWAYS picked up by whoever the local civil authority is. Now, suddenly, 100 bodies "go missing" ? you'd think the inspectors who went into the carriages might have noticed nowhere near enough bags?
So, we have a lot of claims originating from dubious sources. I don't mean possibly biased ones. I mean ones who cannot possibly KNOW either way. Either from not being there or from being too ignorant.
Now we have photographs and videos. Some from unknown or dubious sources, too, but if we can see it is from the correct site, and we ascertain we're getting it in context, not edited "grabs", we can start to see for ourselves. The internet is full of smartphone videos; if big pieces of wreckage were carted away, there'd be a movie of them taking it.
There is so much propaganda and disinformation going on, any claim not backed up by pictures should be taken with a huge lump of salt. (And then check the image isn't fake, too).
* claims of looting, removal of evidence etc originating with allegations from Kiev, who had nobody anywhere near there to know one way or the other
* claims from one OSCE source that they saw one piece being cut, blow up to allegations of removing a lot of parts (up to and including the fuselage??? these OSCE people think when a plane crashes from that height the fuselage will just lie there in one piece? what do they think all that burned up stuff is?
* with all that photography going on, nobody's caught a truck filled with aircraft scrap metal going anywhere
* a lot of screaming about "destroying evidence" accompanied by even louder demands for respectful treatment of the bodies.......... while the bodies were being decently found, marked, bagged and taken into refrigerated storage. No "experts" turned up in 12 hours (or 48) with refrigerated vans, body bags, gloves, masks or even crime scene tape, did they? nor is there any global organization who have monopoly rights to picking up dead bodies at air crash locations. They are ALWAYS picked up by whoever the local civil authority is. Now, suddenly, 100 bodies "go missing" ? you'd think the inspectors who went into the carriages might have noticed nowhere near enough bags?
So, we have a lot of claims originating from dubious sources. I don't mean possibly biased ones. I mean ones who cannot possibly KNOW either way. Either from not being there or from being too ignorant.
Now we have photographs and videos. Some from unknown or dubious sources, too, but if we can see it is from the correct site, and we ascertain we're getting it in context, not edited "grabs", we can start to see for ourselves. The internet is full of smartphone videos; if big pieces of wreckage were carted away, there'd be a movie of them taking it.
There is so much propaganda and disinformation going on, any claim not backed up by pictures should be taken with a huge lump of salt. (And then check the image isn't fake, too).
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sadpole
All I am saying this whole thing with the BUK launcher on a truck is a red
herring, designed to get everyone excited.
Sorry sadpole. The images of Lughansk and Toraz convincingly validate the images of the BUK with at least one missile missing heading back to Russia on a lowboy flatbed tractor trailer. The taste of a red herring can be bitter.
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KAT SLF
(And then check the image isn't fake, too).
most important part of your post.
Earlier there was a reference to a video on an american station where it was interspersed with shots of a different crash, now whether this was to mislead, to pad out the program or a mistake we were not told, but an eagled PP contributor noticed it.
(And then check the image isn't fake, too).
most important part of your post.
Earlier there was a reference to a video on an american station where it was interspersed with shots of a different crash, now whether this was to mislead, to pad out the program or a mistake we were not told, but an eagled PP contributor noticed it.
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The language of the White House is not accidental; referring to it as a mistake is a clear attempt to give Moscow latitude and move towards framing the scenario in a manner where everyone can wash their hands.
40 identical hearses, driven with military precision.
A dramatic and poignant affair in the style of a state funeral.
Soldiers as pall bearers.
Sad, sombre and respectful yet also impersonal.
No flowers in sight, a clinical scene devoid of civilian life.
Immaculate, organised and ordered, in stark contrast to the field in which they fell.
With sincere and utmost respect, I find it sadly ironic to see a heavy military overtone in the enactment of this ceremony.
Below is a statement just released by the Australian parents who lost their three children. They said it is a "message to soldiers in Ukraine, the politicians the media and their friends and family"
"Our pain is intense and relentless, we live in a hell beyond hell. No one deserves what we are going through. Not even the people who shot our whole family out of the sky.
No hate in the world is as strong as the love that we have for our children, For Mo, for Evie, for Otis..This is a revelation that gives us some comfort".
The couple said they wanted this message to be borne in mind "when you are making any decisions that affect us and the other victims of this horror".(source abc)
A dramatic and poignant affair in the style of a state funeral.
Soldiers as pall bearers.
Sad, sombre and respectful yet also impersonal.
No flowers in sight, a clinical scene devoid of civilian life.
Immaculate, organised and ordered, in stark contrast to the field in which they fell.
With sincere and utmost respect, I find it sadly ironic to see a heavy military overtone in the enactment of this ceremony.
Below is a statement just released by the Australian parents who lost their three children. They said it is a "message to soldiers in Ukraine, the politicians the media and their friends and family"
"Our pain is intense and relentless, we live in a hell beyond hell. No one deserves what we are going through. Not even the people who shot our whole family out of the sky.
No hate in the world is as strong as the love that we have for our children, For Mo, for Evie, for Otis..This is a revelation that gives us some comfort".
The couple said they wanted this message to be borne in mind "when you are making any decisions that affect us and the other victims of this horror".(source abc)
Last edited by mickjoebill; 23rd Jul 2014 at 15:54.
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What do we have?
* claims of looting, removal of evidence etc originating with allegations from Kiev, who had nobody anywhere near there to know one way or the other
* claims from one OSCE source that they saw one piece being cut, blow up to allegations of removing a lot of parts (up to and including the fuselage??? these OSCE people think when a plane crashes from that height the fuselage will just lie there in one piece? what do they think all that burned up stuff is?
* with all that photography going on, nobody's caught a truck filled with aircraft scrap metal going anywhere
* a lot of screaming about "destroying evidence" accompanied by even louder demands for respectful treatment of the bodies..........
* claims of looting, removal of evidence etc originating with allegations from Kiev, who had nobody anywhere near there to know one way or the other
* claims from one OSCE source that they saw one piece being cut, blow up to allegations of removing a lot of parts (up to and including the fuselage??? these OSCE people think when a plane crashes from that height the fuselage will just lie there in one piece? what do they think all that burned up stuff is?
* with all that photography going on, nobody's caught a truck filled with aircraft scrap metal going anywhere
* a lot of screaming about "destroying evidence" accompanied by even louder demands for respectful treatment of the bodies..........
"where are the black boxes, why aren't they handed over, they've gone to Moscow" ... black boxes retrieved and handed over ... "OMG, they cut up the rear section of the plane"
"why are they leaving the bodies out in the wreckage" ... bodies retrieved ... "OMG, they cut open the cockpit"
Now we have photographs and videos. Some from unknown or dubious sources, too, but if we can see it is from the correct site, and we ascertain we're getting it in context, not edited "grabs", we can start to see for ourselves.
ABC report that Ukraine had released a statement saying two military SU jets have been shot down in rebel held territory in Eastern Ukraine.
East of MH17 crash, close to border.
Al Jazeera aired Video said to be of rebels at the crash scene and searching for the two pilots who ejected.
East of MH17 crash, close to border.
Al Jazeera aired Video said to be of rebels at the crash scene and searching for the two pilots who ejected.
More than just an ATCO
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National Day of Mourning here in NL today.
Watched the C130 and the C17 repatriating the first 40 victims to Eindhoven. . Very moving ceremony, tastefully done in contrast to the indignities they suffered in Ukraine.
Most of the talking heads for once kept quiet throughout the ceremony
Watched the C130 and the C17 repatriating the first 40 victims to Eindhoven. . Very moving ceremony, tastefully done in contrast to the indignities they suffered in Ukraine.
Most of the talking heads for once kept quiet throughout the ceremony
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The route was approved by Eurocontrol ATC, safe per ICAO, IATA.
However the airline has a responsibility to apply contingency planning as is done with high terrain on a route. Escape routes are planned by an airline to cater for the event of engine(s) failure or a depressurisation over areas of very high terrain.
Therefore it is no excuse to say that the route was approved by the Eurocontrol ATC. It must be assumed that an engine failure or depressurisation can occur at anytime. A B777 at a cruise altitude cannot maintain normal cruise altitude with a 50% loss of thrust due to an engine failure. At the sort of weight at that stage of flight, the one engine inoperative maximum altitude would have been in the region of 20,000 to 23,000 feet (depending on actual weight and air density). The point is that it is not relevant to say that as the upper limit of the war zone is 32,000 feet and as the aircraft was at 33,000 feet it was therefore, "safe". No consideration was given to a possible engine failure, depressurisation or cargo fire, requiring an immediate descent and placing it well with the assumed missile range. As we now know, 32,000 feet was a painfully flawed assumption in any case.
This route was taken for purely commercial reasons, now the airline is hiding behind an ATC approval. Since then, they have also flown over Syria.
However the airline has a responsibility to apply contingency planning as is done with high terrain on a route. Escape routes are planned by an airline to cater for the event of engine(s) failure or a depressurisation over areas of very high terrain.
Therefore it is no excuse to say that the route was approved by the Eurocontrol ATC. It must be assumed that an engine failure or depressurisation can occur at anytime. A B777 at a cruise altitude cannot maintain normal cruise altitude with a 50% loss of thrust due to an engine failure. At the sort of weight at that stage of flight, the one engine inoperative maximum altitude would have been in the region of 20,000 to 23,000 feet (depending on actual weight and air density). The point is that it is not relevant to say that as the upper limit of the war zone is 32,000 feet and as the aircraft was at 33,000 feet it was therefore, "safe". No consideration was given to a possible engine failure, depressurisation or cargo fire, requiring an immediate descent and placing it well with the assumed missile range. As we now know, 32,000 feet was a painfully flawed assumption in any case.
This route was taken for purely commercial reasons, now the airline is hiding behind an ATC approval. Since then, they have also flown over Syria.
Nobody thought that civil aircraft would be targets and no civilian authorities were aware of (or understood) the capabilities of the SAM's being used in the region.
Last edited by Ian W; 23rd Jul 2014 at 16:31. Reason: grammar
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Debris field image
Map of crash site with some parts photographed.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/mh1...pnel-etc.3997/
The bottom row 2 images are stabliser (at left) and main tail cone (middle); centre image on top map is wrong.
The white spots near the lake are from the plane, and the lake was searched for bodies (don't know with what success). The wheat field at the bottom is where the black boxes were found (not surprising, being stowed in the tail). The wing seems to be near water, too, but I can't be sure if it's the same lake or not.
Some bodies were found in the wheat field, some in the sunflower field (out of the picture to the top, ie beyond the burned debris area) and also in some of the houses and yards.
We'll need to get better maps.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/mh1...pnel-etc.3997/
The bottom row 2 images are stabliser (at left) and main tail cone (middle); centre image on top map is wrong.
The white spots near the lake are from the plane, and the lake was searched for bodies (don't know with what success). The wheat field at the bottom is where the black boxes were found (not surprising, being stowed in the tail). The wing seems to be near water, too, but I can't be sure if it's the same lake or not.
Some bodies were found in the wheat field, some in the sunflower field (out of the picture to the top, ie beyond the burned debris area) and also in some of the houses and yards.
We'll need to get better maps.
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Ukrainia's goverment on todays SU-25 downings: http://online.wsj.com/articles/pro-r...ays-1406117307
But what or who hit the MH17 then?
The two planes were flying at an altitude of about 17,000 feet when they were hit by antiaircraft fire, the spokesman, Col. Andriy Lysenko, said. He added that weapons held by the separatist rebels in eastern Ukraine, where the planes went down, weren't believed to reach that high.
Last edited by Caygill; 23rd Jul 2014 at 16:40. Reason: source
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Why nobody has reported to have seen such traces in the sky? The area is not that much populated as a capital city, but still there are many towns and villages around to see such a picture at a 10 km altitude and every kid has a mobile phone with a camera now.
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The NYT says the perforated panels from the cockpit region were found here. It's like 9km/5nm west of the main debris field.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...down.html?_r=0
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re flying over war zones. in my day flight ops would present captains with routes that were open, obviously, and any official info on activity (wars, Danger and Restricted Areas etc ) that he needed to know about. the captain would then decide either to accept the route or insist on changes. thats the individual decision taken care of on the day. meanwhile the airline management monitors the rolling situation and makes policy decisions on whether to fly or not to fly a route over a specific period.
Now we have the FAA (and others) in response to concerns over flights in war zones finally issuing firm instructions. is it not ironic if not bonkers that Israel decides this is politically unacceptable to them and almost certainly orders that poor old Kerry has to ignore the instructions, or else.....
Now we have the FAA (and others) in response to concerns over flights in war zones finally issuing firm instructions. is it not ironic if not bonkers that Israel decides this is politically unacceptable to them and almost certainly orders that poor old Kerry has to ignore the instructions, or else.....