U.S. Navy EP-3 forced down by Chinese
Guest
Posts: n/a
The good news is, They're still talking. The bad news is, they're still talking According to reports I heard in the media the Military Faction tossed a spanner in the works this weekend by being obdurate. If true, then it's not only a matter of talking between two countries, but an internal schism as well. As if it wasn't complicated enough.
Thankfully at this point, we have had limited access to our service people, and they appear to be well cared for. As long as that continues, and as long as the dialog continues, there remains hope.
I'm miffed that it's called a "spy plane" though. Even though it's purpose is to collect everything in the electromagnetic spectrum like a vacuum cleaner, it's not as if it deliberately invades national airspace to do so, or uses stealth technology like the U-2 or SR-71 did. This plane has about as much to do with espionage as any Military Attache in any country does, Yes, collects Intelligence, as Attaches do, but by fair means, not foul. It may be a niggling point, but I thought it bears mention.
R*
Thankfully at this point, we have had limited access to our service people, and they appear to be well cared for. As long as that continues, and as long as the dialog continues, there remains hope.
I'm miffed that it's called a "spy plane" though. Even though it's purpose is to collect everything in the electromagnetic spectrum like a vacuum cleaner, it's not as if it deliberately invades national airspace to do so, or uses stealth technology like the U-2 or SR-71 did. This plane has about as much to do with espionage as any Military Attache in any country does, Yes, collects Intelligence, as Attaches do, but by fair means, not foul. It may be a niggling point, but I thought it bears mention.
R*
Guest
Posts: n/a
1 of Many,
"The best thing your country can do is apologize, cross your fingers behind your back......"
what kind of convaluted, twisted thinking is this? This is the same kind of thinking utilized by Chamberlain with Uncle Adolph!
By the way Liberals usually have the same kind of views as you, and your almost always wrong! Remember all the "No-Nuke" protesters in Europe in the 80's, They Hated Reagan, said he was bringing the world to the edge of Nuclear War with his rhetoric, and hard line stance's against the Soviets, Yet even Gorbachev admitted Reagan was right, and he is responsible for the end of the Cold War. Also as the Soviets opened up their archives, it was discovered that alot of the "No-Nuke" organizations were secretly being funded by the KGB...As an American I'm glad Bush is our President, Hell, if clinton was still in office, he would have court-martialed the P-3 crew, apoligized to the Chineese, and replaced their lost fighter with a brand new F-22..When Liberals are at odds with my views its usually a good sign that I'm right!!!
"The best thing your country can do is apologize, cross your fingers behind your back......"
what kind of convaluted, twisted thinking is this? This is the same kind of thinking utilized by Chamberlain with Uncle Adolph!
By the way Liberals usually have the same kind of views as you, and your almost always wrong! Remember all the "No-Nuke" protesters in Europe in the 80's, They Hated Reagan, said he was bringing the world to the edge of Nuclear War with his rhetoric, and hard line stance's against the Soviets, Yet even Gorbachev admitted Reagan was right, and he is responsible for the end of the Cold War. Also as the Soviets opened up their archives, it was discovered that alot of the "No-Nuke" organizations were secretly being funded by the KGB...As an American I'm glad Bush is our President, Hell, if clinton was still in office, he would have court-martialed the P-3 crew, apoligized to the Chineese, and replaced their lost fighter with a brand new F-22..When Liberals are at odds with my views its usually a good sign that I'm right!!!
Guest
Posts: n/a
"A military response"?
Mmm. Great idea. Let's start a war over the temporary custody of 24 people - the crew of an aircraft engaged in covert if legal electronic espionage.
"Not a Spyplane"?
It attempts to gain int that the Chinese don't want to be accessed. What is it then? A helpful calibration aircraft?
We all want a resolution to this crisis, and it will require a degree of compromise. But we can't berate the Chinese for holding out for an apology if the US is going to be just as intransigent in not giving one.
In fact, Dubya seems to be being fairly accomodating - writing to the widow, etc. and I'd have thought that it was time for the Chinese to make a reciprocal gesture.
But to talk about 'preparing military responses' and applauding 'not flexing'? What colour is the sky on your planet, guys, 'cos you're certainly not on this one.
Mmm. Great idea. Let's start a war over the temporary custody of 24 people - the crew of an aircraft engaged in covert if legal electronic espionage.
"Not a Spyplane"?
It attempts to gain int that the Chinese don't want to be accessed. What is it then? A helpful calibration aircraft?
We all want a resolution to this crisis, and it will require a degree of compromise. But we can't berate the Chinese for holding out for an apology if the US is going to be just as intransigent in not giving one.
In fact, Dubya seems to be being fairly accomodating - writing to the widow, etc. and I'd have thought that it was time for the Chinese to make a reciprocal gesture.
But to talk about 'preparing military responses' and applauding 'not flexing'? What colour is the sky on your planet, guys, 'cos you're certainly not on this one.
Guest
Posts: n/a
DID I MISS SOMETHING???
While I wouldn't advocate a stupid military move, I seem to recall that it wasn't the local mayor who issued an invitation to visit, as opposed to a Chinese fighter in international airspace being rather insistent on the destination.
Planet Earth; the last I checked.
While I wouldn't advocate a stupid military move, I seem to recall that it wasn't the local mayor who issued an invitation to visit, as opposed to a Chinese fighter in international airspace being rather insistent on the destination.
Planet Earth; the last I checked.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Jackonito,
I am curious how a 4 engine turboprop cruising along in international airspace for all to see is "covert."
Furthermore, Chinese fighters must really suck if 1 can be rammed by a 40+ year old turboprop. You would think that a shiny new jet fighter would be able to stay away. Of course you would have to be carrying out intercepts in proper manner for that to be the case.
Cheers
Wino
I am curious how a 4 engine turboprop cruising along in international airspace for all to see is "covert."
Furthermore, Chinese fighters must really suck if 1 can be rammed by a 40+ year old turboprop. You would think that a shiny new jet fighter would be able to stay away. Of course you would have to be carrying out intercepts in proper manner for that to be the case.
Cheers
Wino
Guest
Posts: n/a
Roc: I can sort of understand your reaction to 1 of Many's comments. A "Chinese-style" apology, whatever that consists of, would be the quickest way to get the crew home, it appears. Most on Pprune seem to understand the concept that in the US, any apology implies that it was the EP-3 pilots' fault that the Chinese fighter pilot died.
Although 1 of Many's comment would not appear to be the best solution, regarding long-term US policy towards the PRC, I can understand that such an apology appears to be THE simplest way to get the hostages home. Maybe the comment was intended to be merely an objective solution, despite the complex forign-policy baggage involved in such a humiliating solution.
What fortunate timing that Clinton is finally out of power, living in Senator Hillary's shadow. Clinton could apologize for any ruthless oppression (even ignore intelligence that there was Red Chinese theft of nuclear technology in New Mexico), as long as the govt is described as "left-wing".
Although 1 of Many's comment would not appear to be the best solution, regarding long-term US policy towards the PRC, I can understand that such an apology appears to be THE simplest way to get the hostages home. Maybe the comment was intended to be merely an objective solution, despite the complex forign-policy baggage involved in such a humiliating solution.
What fortunate timing that Clinton is finally out of power, living in Senator Hillary's shadow. Clinton could apologize for any ruthless oppression (even ignore intelligence that there was Red Chinese theft of nuclear technology in New Mexico), as long as the govt is described as "left-wing".
Guest
Posts: n/a
I know it "the real world" out there, but isn't it amazing how it's always the West who has to be mindful of "the other side's" feelings in anything like this and it's never the other way around?
I know it would unleash a political storm, but wouldn't it be nice to see a "Hollywood ending" to this, where GB recognises Taiwan and says "stick it" to the totalitian regime on the mainland?
I'm just waiting to see the way the West and the ICC rolls over to give the b*****'s the 2008 Olympics to allow them to "save face". It would be a travesty if the did, but believe we'll see it.
I know it would unleash a political storm, but wouldn't it be nice to see a "Hollywood ending" to this, where GB recognises Taiwan and says "stick it" to the totalitian regime on the mainland?
I'm just waiting to see the way the West and the ICC rolls over to give the b*****'s the 2008 Olympics to allow them to "save face". It would be a travesty if the did, but believe we'll see it.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I say:
Smile sweetly and apologise. Thank them for returning the crew, and then recognise Taiwan's independence. Suggest that maybe, they should discuss their reasons for the US not supplying a new radar system to the newly recognised nation, thus providing jobs and income to the workers of the USA in a time of slight economic uncertainty. A new radar would also be handy for working out where aircraft are in international airspace.
------------------
Irie
Smile sweetly and apologise. Thank them for returning the crew, and then recognise Taiwan's independence. Suggest that maybe, they should discuss their reasons for the US not supplying a new radar system to the newly recognised nation, thus providing jobs and income to the workers of the USA in a time of slight economic uncertainty. A new radar would also be handy for working out where aircraft are in international airspace.
------------------
Irie
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
When the goin' gets messy, here comes Jesse...
Wonder if this reverend without a church will bring one of his secretaries who can't type to take horizontal shorthand? He has had some success in the past with hostage releases and he needs some positive media coverage to draw attention away from some of the shady deals and financial transactions that have surfaced in the Chicago papers in the past few weeks.
_____________________________________
Jackson offers to go to China to negotiate
April 10, 2001
BY ANNIE SWEENEY STAFF REPORTER
Chicago Sun Times
As he has done with other international crises, the Rev. Jesse L. Jackson is offering his mediation skills to help bring an end to the nine-day standoff between the United States and China.
"If a delegation appealing to the Chinese directly would help, we'd be willing to do that," he said Monday. "We've done it before, and each time we were successful."
Jackson also called on the United States to apologize to China, saying it would not be a sign of weakness. Both governments on Monday continued negotiating a resolution to the impasse created after an American spy plane and a Chinese fighter jet collided April 1. The Chinese pilot is missing and presumed dead and 24 Americans have been detained by the Chinese government.
Jackson said it was not only the safety and freedom of the 24 servicemen and women that concerns him, but also the growing threat to international stability created by the standoff.
"The crisis is deepening; the long-range implications are getting deeper," Jackson said. "We are willing to go and make the appeal if both governments are in a fierce deadlock."
President Bush has refused to apologize, though he expressed regret Friday for the loss and presumed death of the pilot. Similar sentiments were contained in a weekend letter from Bush to the pilot's wife, officials said.
On Monday, Bush warned Americans that the standoff may not end soon, saying, "Diplomacy takes time."
He also warned China that its relations with the United States could suffer if the impasse continued.
Bush, who has issued similar warnings to Beijing before, broke new ground with the diplomacy-takes-time formulation. Advisers said it was a plea for patience aimed at conservatives who ratcheted up their anti-China rhetoric over the weekend and began to question his handling of the situation.
Secretary of State Colin Powell said Sunday the administration was "sorry" for the pilot's loss--the closest the United States has come to an apology. China gave no direct reaction to Powell's statement Monday.
But Jackson said the United States government ought to apologize for what was an unintentional act, and China should recognize that the collision that led to the loss of a Chinese pilot was an accident.
"I think our government should say: `If we have violated you in any way, it was not intentional and we apologize,' " Jackson said. "Getting Americans home is worth expressing an apology."
Jackson, who has successfully mediated disputes in regions where anti-American sentiment runs high, said diplomatic reasons could prevent the countries from moving close enough to resolution. A religious delegation, however, might be an effective "bridge," he said.
"Both governments have drawn a line in the sand. In the meantime, the soldiers are in the gap," Jackson said. "If it is not closed, the whole world must use various forms of moral appeals."
Jackson said he made an offer to help when he called National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice three days ago. He said no delegation is planned at this time, and he would not interfere with U.S diplomatic efforts.
Jackson also said he is not criticizing President Bush's efforts to date. But he pointed to the list of international disputes he has successfully mediated and said a religious delegation often can make strides where politicians cannot.
"In each instance, we had to make a moral appeal," Jackson said. "You do it in a way that does honor to our country. Somehow religious people can be a bridge."
In 1984, Jackson traveled to Syria to secure the release of Navy Lt. Robert O. Goodman Jr., whose jet was shot down during a raid over Syrian anti-aircraft positions in Lebanon. In 1990, he helped negotiate the release of U.S. and foreign hostages in Iraq.
And most recently in 1999, he traveled to Belgrade with a delegation of U.S. religious officials to secure the release of three American soldiers who had been held for three months.
Jackson also called on Americans to recognize that the impasse must end not only for the safety of the soldiers, but because national security depends on it.
"It's a huge nation that we are in a standoff with," Jackson said. "This is an awesome foe."
Guest
Posts: n/a
Most of the media in the PRC is state controlled. Immediatly after the accident, they tried to gain political advantage, by viciously criticising the US, and stiring up anti US feelings.
The chinese people now wrongly believe that 'an illegal US spy plane deliberatly caused a mid-air collision, killing one of their pilots, in their airspace'.
Even if the chinese government accept that an US appology isn't justified, they need to be able to give the people of China this appology, because they layed the blame on the US in the first place.
If they do not get the appology, the chinese government will have appeared to back down to the mighty US. If the US gives an appology, they will look really bad in China, for leaving it for so long.
ickle
The chinese people now wrongly believe that 'an illegal US spy plane deliberatly caused a mid-air collision, killing one of their pilots, in their airspace'.
Even if the chinese government accept that an US appology isn't justified, they need to be able to give the people of China this appology, because they layed the blame on the US in the first place.
If they do not get the appology, the chinese government will have appeared to back down to the mighty US. If the US gives an appology, they will look really bad in China, for leaving it for so long.
ickle
Guest
Posts: n/a
The problem with apologizing is exactly what we are apologizing for!
The chinese want us to apologize for flying an aircraft perfectly legally in international airspace. If we apologize for the spy plane flights we then cannot do them anymore because we will have said that we were wrong.
As we are an Ally of Taiwan and might someday have to come to the defense of Taiwan, there is NO WAY I would agree to ending legal intelligence gathering that might one day save the lives of considerably more than the 24 service men currently held hostage by the Chinese.
Even if it means the loss of the 24, we should not apologize, however we should not forget the 24 either. China is the agressor here, not us, and they should be apologizing.
Apparenly this hotshot made to previous passes as close as 3 feet before the inevitable happened and he clipped off his tail on the number 1 propellor.
Cheers
Wino
The chinese want us to apologize for flying an aircraft perfectly legally in international airspace. If we apologize for the spy plane flights we then cannot do them anymore because we will have said that we were wrong.
As we are an Ally of Taiwan and might someday have to come to the defense of Taiwan, there is NO WAY I would agree to ending legal intelligence gathering that might one day save the lives of considerably more than the 24 service men currently held hostage by the Chinese.
Even if it means the loss of the 24, we should not apologize, however we should not forget the 24 either. China is the agressor here, not us, and they should be apologizing.
Apparenly this hotshot made to previous passes as close as 3 feet before the inevitable happened and he clipped off his tail on the number 1 propellor.
Cheers
Wino
Guest
Posts: n/a
IN PERSPECTIVE -
Trusting in the international news accounts and the known damage, here's the scene:
1. These EP-3 aircraft have been cruising in international airspace, doing their 'monitoring' mission for quite a while.
2. In international airspace, the Chinese fighters have been harrassing the aircraft for some time, with prior protest to the Chinese by the USA.
3. In the case of this EP-3, from the news accounts, the fighters approach from the rear, Zhao, pulls ahead, while Wei clips the trailing edge of the EP-3, at least one prop and takes off the nose cone of the U.S. plane with his rudder.
4. After Wei bails out, Zhao asks permission to shoot down the damaged EP-3 in international airspace - now turning away, trying to get clear of the area.
5. With permission to shoot down the aircraft denied, Zhao forces the EP-3 (presumably with tracers fired) to land on Hainen Island.
6. Zhao couldn't have seen the collision, but now describes an impossible scenario.
7. Now, the USA is supposed to apologize???
Then, while the U.S. media refuses to portray the most obvious facts of the matter to the American public, Jesse Jackson (who has portrayed himself as a pretty scummy character with his personal 'affairs' - not the 'stuff' of a diplomat) says that the U.S. should apologize and seeks permission from the directoress of the NSA (which has no diplomatic mission) to mediate the release of the crew.
Is it my imagination, or, is there something really screwy in this picture???
Trusting in the international news accounts and the known damage, here's the scene:
1. These EP-3 aircraft have been cruising in international airspace, doing their 'monitoring' mission for quite a while.
2. In international airspace, the Chinese fighters have been harrassing the aircraft for some time, with prior protest to the Chinese by the USA.
3. In the case of this EP-3, from the news accounts, the fighters approach from the rear, Zhao, pulls ahead, while Wei clips the trailing edge of the EP-3, at least one prop and takes off the nose cone of the U.S. plane with his rudder.
4. After Wei bails out, Zhao asks permission to shoot down the damaged EP-3 in international airspace - now turning away, trying to get clear of the area.
5. With permission to shoot down the aircraft denied, Zhao forces the EP-3 (presumably with tracers fired) to land on Hainen Island.
6. Zhao couldn't have seen the collision, but now describes an impossible scenario.
7. Now, the USA is supposed to apologize???
Then, while the U.S. media refuses to portray the most obvious facts of the matter to the American public, Jesse Jackson (who has portrayed himself as a pretty scummy character with his personal 'affairs' - not the 'stuff' of a diplomat) says that the U.S. should apologize and seeks permission from the directoress of the NSA (which has no diplomatic mission) to mediate the release of the crew.
Is it my imagination, or, is there something really screwy in this picture???
Guest
Posts: n/a
From all the news reports and for the most part the very interesting posts I've read on this thread, there appears to be a major power play in progress in China.
The main players are the Chinese diplomats who seem to be looking for a way out vs. the militarists (who for a long time have thought China was going to hell in a hand basket).
If the hot-dogging jet jock is anything to show the world to what lengths their superiors allow them to risk themselves and others, then we can pretty well tell that this aggressiveness is being condoned by the upper brass. The word is coming from above.
Thrown in between the suits and the uniforms are the often corrupt Chinese businessmen who don't want to end good relations with the U.S., because that would end their lucrative careers. Just how much power is held by the business lobby, is just a guess.
If the U.S. gets on its knees and aplogizes for this unfortunate incident, they are dead either way. Even at the hint of a future, even minor, incident that the Chinese don't like, they'll have a past precedent to kick them in the face. This is the world's most populous country that had the world's largest inferiority complex. They have to win even before playing the game.
If the Americans don't apologize, then China is faced with a huge dilemna. There are billions and billions of foreign capital invested in China, and if the American's started pulling out, it may deeply hurt the Chinese economy. Unemployment will skyrocket in the new mega-cities, as well as in provinces. In fact, the world will be left without clothes. Soon we may all be walking naked, not listening to the radio, or watching TV. I won't be able to post this garbage on the internet, because most of my computer's components are made in China.
Are the Chinese ready to give all this up just to save face over an incident that was their fault from the start. I say with reserve -- maybe. The most recent example was the Cultural Revolution, and this time they could set themselves back 50 years -- just about as old as the original Orion.
The main players are the Chinese diplomats who seem to be looking for a way out vs. the militarists (who for a long time have thought China was going to hell in a hand basket).
If the hot-dogging jet jock is anything to show the world to what lengths their superiors allow them to risk themselves and others, then we can pretty well tell that this aggressiveness is being condoned by the upper brass. The word is coming from above.
Thrown in between the suits and the uniforms are the often corrupt Chinese businessmen who don't want to end good relations with the U.S., because that would end their lucrative careers. Just how much power is held by the business lobby, is just a guess.
If the U.S. gets on its knees and aplogizes for this unfortunate incident, they are dead either way. Even at the hint of a future, even minor, incident that the Chinese don't like, they'll have a past precedent to kick them in the face. This is the world's most populous country that had the world's largest inferiority complex. They have to win even before playing the game.
If the Americans don't apologize, then China is faced with a huge dilemna. There are billions and billions of foreign capital invested in China, and if the American's started pulling out, it may deeply hurt the Chinese economy. Unemployment will skyrocket in the new mega-cities, as well as in provinces. In fact, the world will be left without clothes. Soon we may all be walking naked, not listening to the radio, or watching TV. I won't be able to post this garbage on the internet, because most of my computer's components are made in China.
Are the Chinese ready to give all this up just to save face over an incident that was their fault from the start. I say with reserve -- maybe. The most recent example was the Cultural Revolution, and this time they could set themselves back 50 years -- just about as old as the original Orion.
Guest
Posts: n/a
This isn't about who was or wasn't at fault for an aircraft collision in international airspace. This is both a matter of cultural differences, and of China's insistence that they be taken seriously by the American government (and indeed, the international theater).
Aside from the obvious fact that the U.S. military has far better hardware, than the EP-3, equipped for for the task of high level covert operations--the EP-3 is perfectly suited for recon in international airspace.
Information gathering is a routine part of every comprehensive defence program; the mere sight of an EP-3 does not necessitate its operation as being "covert"--and it most certainly does not warrant what might easily be interpreted as threatening maneuvers on the part of interceptor aircraft.
Pride invariably becomes a factor when nations realize they're being watched--this is the point at which these aicraft (including their respective crews) become spokes on the wheel.
The scope of the problem can no longer be understood in terms of a stand-alone incident, it becomes an issue for two nations who've much to gain from political posturing in order to gain a percieved advantage.
With that understanding, the wise play is for the U.S. to negotiate terms allowing Colin Powell to extend his private apologies to the families of lost airmen and issue a public statement of general regret (without any particular reference to what matter warrants the statement) thus allowing both China and the D.O.D. to "save face", as it were, while not precluding continued diplomatic relations (however strained at the moment).
This isn't just wise for American foreign policy--it's the smart play for many other smaller/less powerful nations who stand to become infinitely more vulnerable if our diplomatic relations with China fray completely.
Aside from the obvious fact that the U.S. military has far better hardware, than the EP-3, equipped for for the task of high level covert operations--the EP-3 is perfectly suited for recon in international airspace.
Information gathering is a routine part of every comprehensive defence program; the mere sight of an EP-3 does not necessitate its operation as being "covert"--and it most certainly does not warrant what might easily be interpreted as threatening maneuvers on the part of interceptor aircraft.
Pride invariably becomes a factor when nations realize they're being watched--this is the point at which these aicraft (including their respective crews) become spokes on the wheel.
The scope of the problem can no longer be understood in terms of a stand-alone incident, it becomes an issue for two nations who've much to gain from political posturing in order to gain a percieved advantage.
With that understanding, the wise play is for the U.S. to negotiate terms allowing Colin Powell to extend his private apologies to the families of lost airmen and issue a public statement of general regret (without any particular reference to what matter warrants the statement) thus allowing both China and the D.O.D. to "save face", as it were, while not precluding continued diplomatic relations (however strained at the moment).
This isn't just wise for American foreign policy--it's the smart play for many other smaller/less powerful nations who stand to become infinitely more vulnerable if our diplomatic relations with China fray completely.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Perhaps we can blame the contact between the two aircraft on Bernoulli. Assuming that the fighter got a bit too close to the underside of the P3Cs wing and by closing in on the underside of the wing the fighter created a Venturi effect and the pressure gradient under the P3Cs wing decreased and the higher pressure under the wing of the F-8 caused it to rise up, and be contacted by the props. That way some of the blame can be shared by the Chinese pilot who got a bit too close but the contact between the two aircraft was caused by a scientific phenomenon and not by the US Navy pilot steering into him.
Having worked in the Middle East for three years I can see that there is a shared mentality between the Asians and the Moslems. Whenever a round eye is involved in an accident it is always his or her fault. Their reasoning is that the accident would never happened if the round eye was not there.
------------------
The Cat
Having worked in the Middle East for three years I can see that there is a shared mentality between the Asians and the Moslems. Whenever a round eye is involved in an accident it is always his or her fault. Their reasoning is that the accident would never happened if the round eye was not there.
------------------
The Cat
Guest
Posts: n/a
A few interesting Piccies sent to me a bit second hand - so to speak. Apparently these were taken from a previous sortie. The text that came with them says :
These pictures were taken by a lady Naval Flight Officer who was on board the downed Navy Electra in China. These pictures were taken 2 days prior to the mid air collision. She e-mailed these to her husband before the accident.
http://www.tails.f2s.com/planepics/F8IIB24J.jpg
http://www.tails.f2s.com/planepics/F-83S.jpg
http://www.tails.f2s.com/planepics/F-821M.jpg
Piccies moved to indirect HTML for page speed. The first one is the best. It looks to me as though the pilot is holding up a message of some kind. Interesting - is this the reported email address.
[This message has been edited by Carthorse (edited 11 April 2001).]
These pictures were taken by a lady Naval Flight Officer who was on board the downed Navy Electra in China. These pictures were taken 2 days prior to the mid air collision. She e-mailed these to her husband before the accident.
http://www.tails.f2s.com/planepics/F8IIB24J.jpg
http://www.tails.f2s.com/planepics/F-83S.jpg
http://www.tails.f2s.com/planepics/F-821M.jpg
Piccies moved to indirect HTML for page speed. The first one is the best. It looks to me as though the pilot is holding up a message of some kind. Interesting - is this the reported email address.
[This message has been edited by Carthorse (edited 11 April 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
It would be nice to see all future EP3 missions to be accompanied by some F15 escorts with a KC135 in tow .
This would certainly be a major deterrent for any dangerous activity planned by these rogue Chinese airman out to make a name for themselves by playing chicken with American lives.
As for the Chinese version of events which is unbelievable to the extreme , it would be fair to say that honesty and integrity will never be one of the countries strong points. You've only got to look at their steroid laden athletes to realize they will never play by anyones rules , except their own.
China is quite obviously attempting to portray a tough guy image on the world stage , but bullying would be a more appropriate description.
I'd be happy to see them pay a heavy price economically for their behaviour to date.
If they continue holding the crew as prisoners , the U.S should halt all trade . It would cripple them and it would be poetic justice.
Personally , I'd be happy to never eat Chinese again or buy any of the low quality rubbish churned out by their slave crewed factories.
They can all go to buggery !!
[This message has been edited by TimeisShort (edited 11 April 2001).]
This would certainly be a major deterrent for any dangerous activity planned by these rogue Chinese airman out to make a name for themselves by playing chicken with American lives.
As for the Chinese version of events which is unbelievable to the extreme , it would be fair to say that honesty and integrity will never be one of the countries strong points. You've only got to look at their steroid laden athletes to realize they will never play by anyones rules , except their own.
China is quite obviously attempting to portray a tough guy image on the world stage , but bullying would be a more appropriate description.
I'd be happy to see them pay a heavy price economically for their behaviour to date.
If they continue holding the crew as prisoners , the U.S should halt all trade . It would cripple them and it would be poetic justice.
Personally , I'd be happy to never eat Chinese again or buy any of the low quality rubbish churned out by their slave crewed factories.
They can all go to buggery !!
[This message has been edited by TimeisShort (edited 11 April 2001).]