AAIB Report into 3-Engined 747 over London
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AAIB Report into 3-Engined 747 over London
Before this story gets out of hand (it already has on the BBC), here's the BBC Report (without reference to when the incident occured)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4604466.stm
Here's the source, citting occurance in April 2004.
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publicati...nuary_2006.cfm
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publicati...32__n481ev.cfm
The last link includes link to pdf for full report.
Jordan
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4604466.stm
Here's the source, citting occurance in April 2004.
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publicati...nuary_2006.cfm
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publicati...32__n481ev.cfm
The last link includes link to pdf for full report.
Jordan
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Re: AAIB Report into 3-Engined 747 over London
Originally Posted by LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK
. Jumbos can fly on 3 engines without a problem.
Of course, they can. BA proved that beyond any doubt.
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Re: AAIB Report into 3-Engined 747 over London
The problem on this occassion according to the report was that the remaining three engines failed to increase thrust when the throttles were advanced and decaying airspeed was noted. The captain elected to land rather than risk flame out on any of the three remaining engines.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Re: AAIB Report into 3-Engined 747 over London
No problem later found with the other 3 engines or the fuel. No subsequent problems with the jet. Doesn´t really pin down the cause, but the point is the crew didn´t think they had the power to maintain level flight and thought they needed to glide to a suitable runway, ATC weren´t told of the full severity of the problem and let them route over central London.
So the potential situation existed of a underpowered 474 failing to reach the runway and going down somewhere in the city.
So the potential situation existed of a underpowered 474 failing to reach the runway and going down somewhere in the city.
Re: AAIB Report into 3-Engined 747 over London
I must say that I do find it total madness to allow a heavy cargo aeroplane -with reported thrust problems on its remaining engines - to make an approach over a major city. There were surely plenty of alternatives around (e.g. Manston, Ostend and even Stansted) within "gliding" distance.
Re: AAIB Report into 3-Engined 747 over London
...and a similar thing had happened previously with a Gemini DC10, which following an uncontained engine failure was routed over central London into LHR...if I remember correct he had been offered Brize (emergency started over Western UK) but went to Heathrow at Commanders request.
Stand to be corrected, it was a while ago.
Stand to be corrected, it was a while ago.
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Re: AAIB Report into 3-Engined 747 over London
Interesting one this.
Suurely the aircraft commander should make the decision (maybe with a little bit of info from ATC regarding the built up areas on route)
Would take a brave ATCO to say NO to an emergency request, especially if it went a few miles extra to another airport and it then crashed short final.
.........interesting to see that TC staff who have not done any TRM yet will be doing TRM instead of TRUCE this year.
Suurely the aircraft commander should make the decision (maybe with a little bit of info from ATC regarding the built up areas on route)
Would take a brave ATCO to say NO to an emergency request, especially if it went a few miles extra to another airport and it then crashed short final.
Safety Recommendation 2005-069
The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) should review the guidance provided in the Manual of Air Traffic Services (MATS) Part 1 and Civil Aviation Publication (CAP) 475 (The Directory Of CAA Approved Organisations) and consider whether ATC unit Training for Unusual Circumstances and Emergencies (TRUCE) plans adequately prepare controllers to handle aircraft in emergency, and in particular, whether sufficient guidance is provided on the avoidance of built-up areas when vectoring aircraft in emergency. Where considered necessary, this guidance should be amended as soon as practicable.
The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) should review the guidance provided in the Manual of Air Traffic Services (MATS) Part 1 and Civil Aviation Publication (CAP) 475 (The Directory Of CAA Approved Organisations) and consider whether ATC unit Training for Unusual Circumstances and Emergencies (TRUCE) plans adequately prepare controllers to handle aircraft in emergency, and in particular, whether sufficient guidance is provided on the avoidance of built-up areas when vectoring aircraft in emergency. Where considered necessary, this guidance should be amended as soon as practicable.
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Re: AAIB Report into 3-Engined 747 over London
Wycombe, I remember the said DC10 incident one Sunday night, that was out of SNN and came all the way to LHR. Replacement aircraft they flew in then went tech as well ...
Re: AAIB Report into 3-Engined 747 over London
Glad this story has made it to PPRUNE.
If the commander calls a Mayday or Pan and requests a diversion to Heathrow, then I, as an Atco, am not going to debate the point until there are clear guidlines laid down about vectoring aircraft in difficulty over central London.
Interesting to hear the pilot was praised in the report, IMHO ATC also did a stunning job in getting what was an aircraft that couldn't maintain height, safely down through a very busy TMA.
If the commander calls a Mayday or Pan and requests a diversion to Heathrow, then I, as an Atco, am not going to debate the point until there are clear guidlines laid down about vectoring aircraft in difficulty over central London.
Interesting to hear the pilot was praised in the report, IMHO ATC also did a stunning job in getting what was an aircraft that couldn't maintain height, safely down through a very busy TMA.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Re: AAIB Report into 3-Engined 747 over London
With due deference to Jackonicko, don't forget that hyperbole and exaggeration are the norm for these stories, and luckily, the Times online didn't let me down...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...981933,00.html
Jumbo with engine failure flew over London
By Simon Freeman
The crew of a Boeing 747 with engine failure that was losing power and altitude took a potentially catastrophic diversion over Central London, it was revealed today.
The jumbo jet was on a cargo flight from Ramstein in Germany to New York when its four-man crew realised that one of the four engines had cut out.
The captain made a U-turn over Reading and - without the appropriate maps - decided to head back to Heathrow, which he had spotted out of the window earlier.
Their figure-of-eight course took the aircraft within ten miles of Gatwick as it looped across Sussex and Kent before mayday was declared.
The aircraft performed a series of sharp turns over Central London as it fought to gain height before reaching Heathrow.
There, the pilot had only his experience to rely on as he guided the Evergreen International Airlines jet onto the runway. There were no instructions in the operations manual as to how the plane would perform in 'glide mode'.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...981933,00.html
Jumbo with engine failure flew over London
By Simon Freeman
The crew of a Boeing 747 with engine failure that was losing power and altitude took a potentially catastrophic diversion over Central London, it was revealed today.
The jumbo jet was on a cargo flight from Ramstein in Germany to New York when its four-man crew realised that one of the four engines had cut out.
The captain made a U-turn over Reading and - without the appropriate maps - decided to head back to Heathrow, which he had spotted out of the window earlier.
Their figure-of-eight course took the aircraft within ten miles of Gatwick as it looped across Sussex and Kent before mayday was declared.
The aircraft performed a series of sharp turns over Central London as it fought to gain height before reaching Heathrow.
There, the pilot had only his experience to rely on as he guided the Evergreen International Airlines jet onto the runway. There were no instructions in the operations manual as to how the plane would perform in 'glide mode'.
Re: AAIB Report into 3-Engined 747 over London
....I thought that the need to loose height was the reason for the 270 and then the S turns. Great example of how one incorrect word can completely change (and render incorrect) that part of the story 
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Re: AAIB Report into 3-Engined 747 over London
As we have said in the past Jouno's read what they want and not the full facts.
"The aircraft performed a series of sharp turns over Central London as it fought to gain height before reaching Heathrow."
Well not according to AAIB, as I understand it it was to lose the height, ready for the approach into Heathrow.
As far as I'm concerned I would rather a crew, in similar circs, went for an airfield they knew they could make, rather than be diverted to a field by ATC which they would perhaps not make it. As already mentioned it would be a brave ATCO not to go with the crew's request's.
The jouno's are reading to much into the report's "what if" comments.
"The aircraft performed a series of sharp turns over Central London as it fought to gain height before reaching Heathrow."
Well not according to AAIB, as I understand it it was to lose the height, ready for the approach into Heathrow.
As far as I'm concerned I would rather a crew, in similar circs, went for an airfield they knew they could make, rather than be diverted to a field by ATC which they would perhaps not make it. As already mentioned it would be a brave ATCO not to go with the crew's request's.
The jouno's are reading to much into the report's "what if" comments.
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Re: AAIB Report into 3-Engined 747 over London
The critical factor in choosing LHR was VMC.
The report is quite emphatic that they probably would not have made it in IMC conditions.
A successful outcome to something as critical as this, speaks volumes for the skill of the crew and ATC. I'd fly with that crew anytime!
The report is quite emphatic that they probably would not have made it in IMC conditions.
A successful outcome to something as critical as this, speaks volumes for the skill of the crew and ATC. I'd fly with that crew anytime!
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Re: AAIB Report into 3-Engined 747 over London
Quote:
"The report said the pilot's manoeuvres would not have been possible if the weather had been worse"
You can only react to the prevelant weather conditions!! What a non-sensical statement!!
I guess that if the vis was 50m in freezing fog, then he would not have been able to make the approach
"The report said the pilot's manoeuvres would not have been possible if the weather had been worse"
You can only react to the prevelant weather conditions!! What a non-sensical statement!!
I guess that if the vis was 50m in freezing fog, then he would not have been able to make the approach
Re: AAIB Report into 3-Engined 747 over London
"I have seen the radar tape & listened to the RT; in my opinion, the combination of ATC & piloting was exemplary when considering the worst case option of a 4 engined flame out"
Hear Hear Mike
Hear Hear Mike
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Re: AAIB Report into 3-Engined 747 over London
Originally Posted by Lookatthesky
Quote:
"The report said the pilot's manoeuvres would not have been possible if the weather had been worse"
You can only react to the prevelant weather conditions!! What a non-sensical statement!!
"The report said the pilot's manoeuvres would not have been possible if the weather had been worse"
You can only react to the prevelant weather conditions!! What a non-sensical statement!!
In other words those S turns probably wern't just to get down to the normal glide slope - he was mentally working out the engine off glide slope and getting set up for that. I'm even more impressed.
Later Edit: Very worrying that no fault found!
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Re: AAIB Report into 3-Engined 747 over London
What a pathetic piece of drivel by 'The Times'....don't tell me - their crossword now has clues with pictures (I used to like to do it) 
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Re: AAIB Report into 3-Engined 747 over London
Originally Posted by RRAAMJET
What a pathetic piece of drivel by 'The Times'....don't tell me - their crossword now has clues with pictures (I used to like to do it)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4605250.stm