New heli for Essex Air Ambulance
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With regards to police owning helicopters, I believe that may be incorrect.
Macalpine supply quite a few of the police helicopters, and certainly the force I work for used to own its helicopter but now leases from Macalpine as a package including the piots. The observers are paid police officers.
I think
Macalpine supply quite a few of the police helicopters, and certainly the force I work for used to own its helicopter but now leases from Macalpine as a package including the piots. The observers are paid police officers.
I think
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Police casevac does not operate under the same JAROPS restrictions as HEMS, hence the anomaly of police helis doing casevac at night and HEMS not.
Operating costs are not lower due to medical reasons. Medical equipment is sponsored and para salaries are paid by the NHS, not the charity.
And AA did not renege - was only ever a 3 year sponsorship, on a declining basis per year %-wise.
Operating costs are not lower due to medical reasons. Medical equipment is sponsored and para salaries are paid by the NHS, not the charity.
And AA did not renege - was only ever a 3 year sponsorship, on a declining basis per year %-wise.
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Anton:
I wouldn't be shouting that too loud if I were you - the PAOM was intended to constrain Police to the same (similar) rules as the HEMS operators.
Once again, there is no rule that prevents night HEMS.
I wouldn't be shouting that too loud if I were you - the PAOM was intended to constrain Police to the same (similar) rules as the HEMS operators.
Once again, there is no rule that prevents night HEMS.
Whoa guys...some anomolies here:
FACT:
The NHS pays for welsh (through the welsh assembly)and (I believe) english paramedic salaries on air ambulance units.
Air Ambulances will always be less cost efficient than their police counterparts because the police are more accountable to the public and they can and do tender for their aviation services. Most, if not all air ambulances, contract through one or two service providers who offer "packages" (pilots/fuel/accom/aircraft/servicing/spares, etc) this overall package is not necessarily best value, but the charities like it because it is hassle free.
Night HEMS is available to ANYONE (police / air ambulance). There are simply, certain guidelines to follow. The problem is that they can prove expensive (Twin pilot / IR / Full IF suite / suitable geographical territory to fly over, etc). As mentined before, Sussex do night HEMS (with dispensations). Air ambulances would do it too, if it were not for the cost implications.
Casevac is a police role and has nothing to do with HEMS. It is controlled by the ANO and not JAR. It was designed to extricate downed police officers from congested areas. This is why you can land at night in 'certain' areas at night that you can't do under normal police ops.
Casevac is always available to the force, and if this means picking up a civvy who is injured in a car crash (primacy of care), then so be it. Before we (personally)went full HEMS, we racked up about 30 night casevacs a year. We still use casevac to pick up patients at night.
HEMS approval was granted to 'certain' police forces because it was deemed a commercial operation under the then, new JAA regs and it required special dispensation (from acquiring another AOC). However, those who have this dispensation, comply in every respect with the JAA requirements for day HEMS.
A significant proportion of police helos are self owned by them...best value etc etc......
NVG is definitely the way to go with night police ops, be it HEMS and or otherwise.
FACT:
The NHS pays for welsh (through the welsh assembly)and (I believe) english paramedic salaries on air ambulance units.
Air Ambulances will always be less cost efficient than their police counterparts because the police are more accountable to the public and they can and do tender for their aviation services. Most, if not all air ambulances, contract through one or two service providers who offer "packages" (pilots/fuel/accom/aircraft/servicing/spares, etc) this overall package is not necessarily best value, but the charities like it because it is hassle free.
Night HEMS is available to ANYONE (police / air ambulance). There are simply, certain guidelines to follow. The problem is that they can prove expensive (Twin pilot / IR / Full IF suite / suitable geographical territory to fly over, etc). As mentined before, Sussex do night HEMS (with dispensations). Air ambulances would do it too, if it were not for the cost implications.
Casevac is a police role and has nothing to do with HEMS. It is controlled by the ANO and not JAR. It was designed to extricate downed police officers from congested areas. This is why you can land at night in 'certain' areas at night that you can't do under normal police ops.
Casevac is always available to the force, and if this means picking up a civvy who is injured in a car crash (primacy of care), then so be it. Before we (personally)went full HEMS, we racked up about 30 night casevacs a year. We still use casevac to pick up patients at night.
HEMS approval was granted to 'certain' police forces because it was deemed a commercial operation under the then, new JAA regs and it required special dispensation (from acquiring another AOC). However, those who have this dispensation, comply in every respect with the JAA requirements for day HEMS.
A significant proportion of police helos are self owned by them...best value etc etc......
NVG is definitely the way to go with night police ops, be it HEMS and or otherwise.
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Thomas:
Nice summary.
I believe the standard text for HEMS was incorporated in the PAOM due to issues of cross charging (making it a commercial activity).
I also believe that we might be seeing a change of views over the two pilot issue for night HEMS (in view of single pilot IFR panels, autopilots, well trained HEMS crew members etc.). Why break up a good team concept just for night operations - it works well in Switzerland with REGA as does NVG operations.
I put this on another thread but it's worth repeating here. The JAA issued the TGL on NVIS Operations on June 1st (TGL 34).
Nice summary.
I believe the standard text for HEMS was incorporated in the PAOM due to issues of cross charging (making it a commercial activity).
I also believe that we might be seeing a change of views over the two pilot issue for night HEMS (in view of single pilot IFR panels, autopilots, well trained HEMS crew members etc.). Why break up a good team concept just for night operations - it works well in Switzerland with REGA as does NVG operations.
I put this on another thread but it's worth repeating here. The JAA issued the TGL on NVIS Operations on June 1st (TGL 34).
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Somebody asked about the US.
My partner is a flight nurse for a company in AZ which does fixed wing as well as rotor. She is at a rotor base, but will do fixed wing if necessary. They use a nurse with advanced qualifications so don't need a doctor, in fact she trains doctors on how to look after critically ill patients. She also has a para-medic on board to help out, the medic can do most things, she is the boss. She thinks most physicians are idiots when it comes to "golden hour" critical care, and she is probably right
She gets paid far less than other nurses, but she loves flying and it's an interesting job, and the employers know it.
As you might expect, it's all commercial. They fly single pilot single engine turbines (AEC 350 A Star I think) over built up areas with no problemo. All VFR, even at night over the desert. The pilots are trialing night vision goggles and love them. There are plenty of cheap French helicopters on the market right now (a bunch of police departments decided it was unpatriotic to buy French so stuck the taxpayers with more expensive American ones) and they are getting some of those. Don't know the type.
The cost of transport comes from the patient, I think they bill out at around $10k to attend, then a mileage when the patient is on board. I think they collect well under half. They will transport you even if they know you don't have insurance.
It's still very profitable and competitive - even dirty. I think Phoenix itself must have over fifteen helicopters, though there is a lot of desert to cover. They will fly down to the Mexican border to pick up patients if necessary. Quite often they do transfers which might not be totally medically necessary but they think of a reason as they pay well.
Interestingly enough, I know of a conflict between the commercial air ambulances and the police helicopters. The commercial air ambulance service decided there was sufficient business to set up a new base in a town. The police helicopter based there, and who was not previously interested in medivac work, suddenly didn't like this new kid on the block. As the cops get to hear about the accidents first, and are publically funded so can go where they like without much oversight, they have started attending accidents and not calling the commercial ambulance service. Stupid really, because if the commercial service doesn't get the business they may as well leave town. Although the police will pick up a nurse from the local ER when they go on a call, they are not as well trained as some of the full time flight nurses, and it will mean a worse medivac service for the local population.
OK, now a question. On Sunday afternoon I was sunning myself on Richmond Green with a picnic hamper and bucket of Pimms. The Virgin air ambulance turned up and flew around the general Richmond river area for around 10-15 minutes. All of a sudden it descended over the Green (which was full of people loafing around like me), sounded a siren, and landed on the grass! It shut down, sat there for around 15 minutes and an ambulance turned up. They transfered a patient and 10 or so minutes later the helicopter headed off north.
what I found interesting was no policemen turned up to set up a landing zone. There were a lot of people hanging around, and the helicopter only gave a few seconds siren warning that it was landing before plonking down. I think there was a potential for danger, why don't the cops turn up? It was flying around for a long time before it landed, I would have thought there was plenty of time to secure a LZ.
It was considerably bigger than US air ambulances and I had to smile as the pilot was wearing a helmet. I was also surprised at the length of time it took to get the patient on board. I wonder why they would have to pick up a patient like that, but that is a medical question, and I don't have any insight of course.
I remember around 15 years ago when they started this air ambulance in London, the senior physician at one of the top teaching hospitals was found unconscious in his garden in the suburbs. They sent a helicopter to pick him up and transported him to The London! Not sure the likes of you or I would have got that
My partner is a flight nurse for a company in AZ which does fixed wing as well as rotor. She is at a rotor base, but will do fixed wing if necessary. They use a nurse with advanced qualifications so don't need a doctor, in fact she trains doctors on how to look after critically ill patients. She also has a para-medic on board to help out, the medic can do most things, she is the boss. She thinks most physicians are idiots when it comes to "golden hour" critical care, and she is probably right
She gets paid far less than other nurses, but she loves flying and it's an interesting job, and the employers know it.As you might expect, it's all commercial. They fly single pilot single engine turbines (AEC 350 A Star I think) over built up areas with no problemo. All VFR, even at night over the desert. The pilots are trialing night vision goggles and love them. There are plenty of cheap French helicopters on the market right now (a bunch of police departments decided it was unpatriotic to buy French so stuck the taxpayers with more expensive American ones) and they are getting some of those. Don't know the type.
The cost of transport comes from the patient, I think they bill out at around $10k to attend, then a mileage when the patient is on board. I think they collect well under half. They will transport you even if they know you don't have insurance.
It's still very profitable and competitive - even dirty. I think Phoenix itself must have over fifteen helicopters, though there is a lot of desert to cover. They will fly down to the Mexican border to pick up patients if necessary. Quite often they do transfers which might not be totally medically necessary but they think of a reason as they pay well.
Interestingly enough, I know of a conflict between the commercial air ambulances and the police helicopters. The commercial air ambulance service decided there was sufficient business to set up a new base in a town. The police helicopter based there, and who was not previously interested in medivac work, suddenly didn't like this new kid on the block. As the cops get to hear about the accidents first, and are publically funded so can go where they like without much oversight, they have started attending accidents and not calling the commercial ambulance service. Stupid really, because if the commercial service doesn't get the business they may as well leave town. Although the police will pick up a nurse from the local ER when they go on a call, they are not as well trained as some of the full time flight nurses, and it will mean a worse medivac service for the local population.
OK, now a question. On Sunday afternoon I was sunning myself on Richmond Green with a picnic hamper and bucket of Pimms. The Virgin air ambulance turned up and flew around the general Richmond river area for around 10-15 minutes. All of a sudden it descended over the Green (which was full of people loafing around like me), sounded a siren, and landed on the grass! It shut down, sat there for around 15 minutes and an ambulance turned up. They transfered a patient and 10 or so minutes later the helicopter headed off north.
what I found interesting was no policemen turned up to set up a landing zone. There were a lot of people hanging around, and the helicopter only gave a few seconds siren warning that it was landing before plonking down. I think there was a potential for danger, why don't the cops turn up? It was flying around for a long time before it landed, I would have thought there was plenty of time to secure a LZ.
It was considerably bigger than US air ambulances and I had to smile as the pilot was wearing a helmet. I was also surprised at the length of time it took to get the patient on board. I wonder why they would have to pick up a patient like that, but that is a medical question, and I don't have any insight of course.
I remember around 15 years ago when they started this air ambulance in London, the senior physician at one of the top teaching hospitals was found unconscious in his garden in the suburbs. They sent a helicopter to pick him up and transported him to The London! Not sure the likes of you or I would have got that
Not sure why they were hanging around over the park, but to second guess things how about that they were waiting for the police or someone else to turn up?
The constabulary are always whinging that they have no persons to do anything these days and that even applies to the other emergency services. There was a time when they would break their necks to help out in such instances.
Lots of alternatives of course, waiting for the ambulance they met up with being one of them. In a perfect world the ambulance would have someone with the knowledge to clear the LZ but we all know its not a perfect world do we not!
Maybe someone knows....
The constabulary are always whinging that they have no persons to do anything these days and that even applies to the other emergency services. There was a time when they would break their necks to help out in such instances.
Lots of alternatives of course, waiting for the ambulance they met up with being one of them. In a perfect world the ambulance would have someone with the knowledge to clear the LZ but we all know its not a perfect world do we not!
Maybe someone knows....
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Just two comments:
On our joint Police / HEMS unit a medical task will almost always take precedence over a police task. The preservation of life is of course a police officers first priority.
We conduct Night HEMS under our PAOC with a HEMS approval. The rules written into the the PAOM HEMS Supplement for day and night HEMS are I believe a straight lift from JAROPS and don't differ from those for a HEMS operator working under a JAR AOC.
On our joint Police / HEMS unit a medical task will almost always take precedence over a police task. The preservation of life is of course a police officers first priority.
We conduct Night HEMS under our PAOC with a HEMS approval. The rules written into the the PAOM HEMS Supplement for day and night HEMS are I believe a straight lift from JAROPS and don't differ from those for a HEMS operator working under a JAR AOC.
Slim_Slag
There's no favouritism (around here anyway). If someone is unconcious in their back garden (or anywhere) and require quick transport to hospital then this HEMS unit will take them. It doesn't matter who you are or where you are.
Why did you "have to smile" because the pilot was wearing a helmet?
There's no favouritism (around here anyway). If someone is unconcious in their back garden (or anywhere) and require quick transport to hospital then this HEMS unit will take them. It doesn't matter who you are or where you are.
Why did you "have to smile" because the pilot was wearing a helmet?
Last edited by whoateallthepies; 6th Jul 2003 at 22:50.
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Slim_slag
Possibly transporting a spinal injury? London's roads these days are more like the surface of the moon than a thoroughfare so it's the safest method. I once escorted an ambulance from SE London to NW London at no more than 5mph by road and it took three hours. I know which method I'd prefer...
And for yourself and PA news...
Any suggestion, veiled or otherwise, that the police knowingly just decided not to turn up to set up a LZ is frankly offensive. And, yes, we do have a very good working relationship with the other, similarly overstreteched emergency services and will pull out all the stops to assist whenever humanly possible.
Possibly transporting a spinal injury? London's roads these days are more like the surface of the moon than a thoroughfare so it's the safest method. I once escorted an ambulance from SE London to NW London at no more than 5mph by road and it took three hours. I know which method I'd prefer...
And for yourself and PA news...
Any suggestion, veiled or otherwise, that the police knowingly just decided not to turn up to set up a LZ is frankly offensive. And, yes, we do have a very good working relationship with the other, similarly overstreteched emergency services and will pull out all the stops to assist whenever humanly possible.
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DBChopper,
Thanks for the possible patient idea, makes sense. I'm not sure who suggested the police deliberately didn't turn up, it certainly wasn't me I was more interested in whether there were procedures which required a LZ to be set up. Obviously not.
pies,
Favouritism is rife in the medical trade, I've seen it, I've done it, I've benefited from it. A cardiologist mate of mine jumped an 18 month waiting list last week (though they are not supposed to exist). I don't agree with it but I'm not going to change it. It was at least 15 years ago and I can promise you that there is no way that helicopter got sent out back then unless there was a major mess. I guess I was smiling because I don't often see helicopters that large transport patients, no harm done, it's good to smile.
Actually pies, I tell a lie. We used sea kings to pick people up from the Lake District Fells when I was in the mountain rescue team back in the real old days. Big ******s they were, and they wore helmets in those too. I didn't smile much then as it was usually bloody miserably cold.
Thanks for the possible patient idea, makes sense. I'm not sure who suggested the police deliberately didn't turn up, it certainly wasn't me
I was more interested in whether there were procedures which required a LZ to be set up. Obviously not.pies,
Favouritism is rife in the medical trade, I've seen it, I've done it, I've benefited from it. A cardiologist mate of mine jumped an 18 month waiting list last week (though they are not supposed to exist). I don't agree with it but I'm not going to change it. It was at least 15 years ago and I can promise you that there is no way that helicopter got sent out back then unless there was a major mess. I guess I was smiling because I don't often see helicopters that large transport patients, no harm done, it's good to smile.
Actually pies, I tell a lie. We used sea kings to pick people up from the Lake District Fells when I was in the mountain rescue team back in the real old days. Big ******s they were, and they wore helmets in those too. I didn't smile much then as it was usually bloody miserably cold.
I'm not sure who suggested the police deliberately didn't turn up, it certainly wasn't me
It was nobody.... my comment was just that in recent years the police are, or claim to be, overstretched and there are few people with the authority around able to clear a landing ground ... hence the circling that was at the root of a prior comment. It was only a suggestion anyway.
It was nobody.... my comment was just that in recent years the police are, or claim to be, overstretched and there are few people with the authority around able to clear a landing ground ... hence the circling that was at the root of a prior comment. It was only a suggestion anyway.
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First, congratulations to Essex on their new EC135. I’m sure the benefits will be obvious very soon.
slim-slag
In response to your previous posting:
London HEMS is a service bringing senior trauma specialised Doctors with paramedics to the patient. As with all U.K air ambulances it is dispatched by the regional ambulance control (London Ambulance Service) and is therefore not in a competitive market. There will only be one helicopter sent to a job unless another one has been requested from or by another county service.
On the Sunday afternoon in question, the aircraft had been tasked to an incident on the Thames at Richmond. The captain elected to land in the park as there was no suitable area nearer to the incident. The patient was transferred from scene by ambulance to the helicopter and following treatment by the doctor, airlifted to a major trauma unit.
HEMS have an excellent working relationship with the Met Police. New Scotland Yard control room is informed every time the aircraft is dispatched and they in turn help us as much as possible. With the short sector times we have (6 minutes average) plus the police’s own pressures, they are not always able to attend before we land, even if they know where we are going.
In the U.K it is mandatory for all flight crews of air ambulance & police helis to wear flame retardant overalls and flying helmets. As for the size of the MD902, in the U.S many operations use SK76, SA365, and B412 which are much larger helicopters. We had a SA365 Dauphin prior to the MD902.
With respect to your partner, I am sure she is well qualified and experienced in her job. However, I am also sure she cannot give a general anaesthetic, perform life-saving surgery on scene or give drugs beyond a certain level. When your partner takes a critically injured patient to hospital, does she hand them over to a nurse or to a doctor led trauma team?
The education of the public and consequent fundraising from is an uphill struggle at the best of times. Uninformed comments like yours do nothing to help.
slim-slag
In response to your previous posting:
London HEMS is a service bringing senior trauma specialised Doctors with paramedics to the patient. As with all U.K air ambulances it is dispatched by the regional ambulance control (London Ambulance Service) and is therefore not in a competitive market. There will only be one helicopter sent to a job unless another one has been requested from or by another county service.
On the Sunday afternoon in question, the aircraft had been tasked to an incident on the Thames at Richmond. The captain elected to land in the park as there was no suitable area nearer to the incident. The patient was transferred from scene by ambulance to the helicopter and following treatment by the doctor, airlifted to a major trauma unit.
HEMS have an excellent working relationship with the Met Police. New Scotland Yard control room is informed every time the aircraft is dispatched and they in turn help us as much as possible. With the short sector times we have (6 minutes average) plus the police’s own pressures, they are not always able to attend before we land, even if they know where we are going.
In the U.K it is mandatory for all flight crews of air ambulance & police helis to wear flame retardant overalls and flying helmets. As for the size of the MD902, in the U.S many operations use SK76, SA365, and B412 which are much larger helicopters. We had a SA365 Dauphin prior to the MD902.
With respect to your partner, I am sure she is well qualified and experienced in her job. However, I am also sure she cannot give a general anaesthetic, perform life-saving surgery on scene or give drugs beyond a certain level. When your partner takes a critically injured patient to hospital, does she hand them over to a nurse or to a doctor led trauma team?
The education of the public and consequent fundraising from is an uphill struggle at the best of times. Uninformed comments like yours do nothing to help.
