Missile Thrown At Helicopter
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Twisted Prune......
Steep Offshore Approaches........now your in quicksand and up to your neck.
People look at these threads with the view of educating themselves, so I have to correct quite "Bluntly" your steep approach suggestions.
Why a steep approach....are you really suggesting its the best way to successfully land on the platform when somethings goes foul with your engine?
Your answer please....
And in helicopters with more than one engine......I guess your suggestion is a steep approach with little or no torque indication, lightly loaded disc is the best and safest way?
Your answer again please.
And please keep it to a paragraph. Knowledgable actions are far safer than words.
People look at these threads with the view of educating themselves, so I have to correct quite "Bluntly" your steep approach suggestions.
Why a steep approach....are you really suggesting its the best way to successfully land on the platform when somethings goes foul with your engine?
Your answer please....
And in helicopters with more than one engine......I guess your suggestion is a steep approach with little or no torque indication, lightly loaded disc is the best and safest way?
Your answer again please.
And please keep it to a paragraph. Knowledgable actions are far safer than words.
Mr Thickie PPrunefan - you clearly do not bother to actually read anyone elses posts - I suppose the fact that anyone has dared to contradict you is such an affront to your extremely inflated opinion of yourself that the red mist descends and you head straight for another ego runaway up on the keyboard.
I had better ring my boss and tell him I have changed nationality and aircraft type - only a retard could deduce that I am a 'south african R22 pilot' from my posts - numpty!
I just don't know how I managed to cope without your assistance the other day when I was winching an injured yachtsman off a 30' yacht in a Force 8 or the day before that pulling 2 cragfast climbers off a 300' cliff.
Guess what? steep approaches don't feature in my day to day flying because they take too long and are cock all use. If you were a real helicopter pilot you would know that a curved and relatively shallow and fast approach will get you almost anywhere safely and allow you to avoid farmers, chicken coops etc without the need for 12 degree (oops I've lost sight of the landing point) approaches.
CRM courses are run to highlight what a nightmare it can be having a knob like you in a cockpit, I just bet your students love flying with you!
I had better ring my boss and tell him I have changed nationality and aircraft type - only a retard could deduce that I am a 'south african R22 pilot' from my posts - numpty!
I just don't know how I managed to cope without your assistance the other day when I was winching an injured yachtsman off a 30' yacht in a Force 8 or the day before that pulling 2 cragfast climbers off a 300' cliff.
Guess what? steep approaches don't feature in my day to day flying because they take too long and are cock all use. If you were a real helicopter pilot you would know that a curved and relatively shallow and fast approach will get you almost anywhere safely and allow you to avoid farmers, chicken coops etc without the need for 12 degree (oops I've lost sight of the landing point) approaches.
CRM courses are run to highlight what a nightmare it can be having a knob like you in a cockpit, I just bet your students love flying with you!
I see what you mean TC - most of his posts are made shortly after school finishes, so he probably comes home, tells his mum he's going upstairs to research his homework on the internet and instead creates his works of fiction on PPrune. How is he ever going to pass his SATS? let alone his GCSEs.
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Let's all be fair here. I am an inexperienced heli pilot - 11 hours dual in total over 20 years. So I'm on my first lesson of circuits. Seven times in one hour we go through "the gate", 60kts/mph (can't remember the units, tsk tsk), at 500 ft with the spot in front of us. But every time, we were over a school playground. I kept thinking, "can't we keep the speed up for longer, and lower collective when we know the landing is assured?" And "are the children at all distracted by the noise of the engine/rotor?" I could hear the engine relaxing as it went down to 15" MAP, but the engine isn't the thing that people on the ground hear.
Experienced pilots, I wonder if you forget this. Hopefully I am an above-average student to be pondering such things, but I don't want to crash-land on a school.
PPRuNeFan, do you get the tone? I do not believe I am insulting anyone by this post. Equally, cannot instructors change their approach [literally] to take into account the surroundings of the airfield?
Mod, feel free to erase.
Experienced pilots, I wonder if you forget this. Hopefully I am an above-average student to be pondering such things, but I don't want to crash-land on a school.
PPRuNeFan, do you get the tone? I do not believe I am insulting anyone by this post. Equally, cannot instructors change their approach [literally] to take into account the surroundings of the airfield?
Mod, feel free to erase.
Oh Crab (and what an appropriate moniker)... actually, I *do* read everyone's posts, even yours - as tedious and boring as they are. Dear Lord, you are so full of yourself...well, so full of something. I'll say one thing: You certainly provide a cure for my insomnia!
My dear fellow, it was *YOU* who leapt to the preposterous conclusion that I advocate steep, in-the-shaded-area approaches all the time. I believe that if you read some of *my* posts, you'd realize that is not the case. But you can't be bothered to read all the posts, can you? Or is it that your short-term memory is so bad that you can't remember that TOT was originally non-specific when it came to what type of ship he was in? Wasn't it *YOU* who assumed it was a Robbo because you didn't want to go back to Page One/Post One and look it up?
I call you an R-22 pilot because that is the way you come across in this forum: inexperienced and of limited intelligence. Not everyone flies SAR - some of us have real jobs, doing real things with helis that have to make money. We don't get the chance to stand around, patting ourselves on the back, telling ourselves (and anyone else who will listen) what great pilots we are. So maybe in your world this "curved," shallow, fast approach is what works. But for those of us who don't operate from airports, that won't work.
Speaking of which by the way, I'm still breathlessly waiting for your response to my three scenarios that I've previously posted. I know it's hard to believe, but all across the globe people use single-engine helis for a variety of things, including offshore and off-airport work. So I'm eager to hear your suggestions as to how a super pilot such as yourself would handle certain things. How do you do an approach to an offshore oil rig without being deeply inside the H-V curve? How to you do a site landing to a confined area without doing the same? Please enlighten us.
As for this "Old Man Rotor" piece of work. Well OMR, you certainly must be old, but your "rotor" qualifications are open for question. You say:
Old Man, the fact that you pose this question tells me two things: 1) You have never flown in the offshore environment, and 2) You would not believe me if I told you. So I'll offer this bit of advice. Go find a real heli pilot (e.g. one who is not you) who actually flies offshore, and ask him whether he uses a steep or shallow approach. Then get back to me with your apology, you fatuous cock.
PF#1, be careful. If we have to warn you again, you'll get the form letter we keep handy for Lu Zuckerman. Your mod status will be revoked and you might have to re-register under yet another screen name. -Helliport
To Shy of Torque. About CRM. When two pilots fly together in a "crew" situation, or in an instructor/student situation, then yes, what you say is true and I agree with you. But remember, we're not talking about student pilots here. What about a pilot/owner who is no longer a student and who is acting as PIC of his own aircraft? This was the case in the two examples I cited. I had no authority in those aircraft - was not acting in any official capacity other than map reader/holder. These guys wanted and needed to feel as though they were "pilot in command." They certainly would not feel that way if they had some smart-arse high-timer sharpshooting and second-guessing them all the time from the co-jo's seat. It's a difficult, uncomfortable position to be in.
I like the "kindler, gentler" approach to instructing as much as the next guy. But with rated pilots it's like this:
Please don't do that. Here's why.
Please don't do that.
Please don't do that again.
Don't do that.
Did I mention not to do that?
Look, you bl**dy turd, DON'T DO THAT!
Again, it comes down to a question of how many times do you tell a pilot not to do something until you have to let him go and see why he should not do that particular thing? One guy actually said to me, "Look, I'm not going to be flying this thing commercially. I'm just a private owner." I replied that with me on board, he better fly it like the Churchill himself was along for the ride (I suppose that would be the equivalent of Richard Nixon to you Yanks).
Well, we've certainly beaten this topic to death. Just in case anyone missed it, I avoid shallow approaches in helicopters if I can. I'll say one thing though. I've never had any irate chicken plucker try to take me out with his cap. And I continue to wonder at just which big (i.e. multiple runway) airport in the U.K. there is farmland within 100 metres (300 feet) of the runway pavement. It seems quite odd, but maybe I need to get out more.
Oh yeah...still waiting for your response, Crab!
Hilico asked:
Quite right, Hilico! Good on ya. And that is the very technique you will probably use if you ever encounter that situation after you get your rating.
The trouble is, you have to learn all types of approaches. And at your level of learning, the "normal" approache is what you need to concentrate on now. Other types will come in time.
It is unfortunate that there is a school playground right under the finals at the airport where you are taking lessons (but it might even be chicken coops!). Rest assured, they do hear the helicopter down there. And they are probably annoyed by it. If there was a way to avoid flying over it, let us hope that your flight school would've explored it by now.
It is smart to keep your eyes on what is underneath you as you fly and modify your profile accordingly. To fail to do so would expose you as an unprofessional, inconsiderate rank amateur.
My dear fellow, it was *YOU* who leapt to the preposterous conclusion that I advocate steep, in-the-shaded-area approaches all the time. I believe that if you read some of *my* posts, you'd realize that is not the case. But you can't be bothered to read all the posts, can you? Or is it that your short-term memory is so bad that you can't remember that TOT was originally non-specific when it came to what type of ship he was in? Wasn't it *YOU* who assumed it was a Robbo because you didn't want to go back to Page One/Post One and look it up?
I call you an R-22 pilot because that is the way you come across in this forum: inexperienced and of limited intelligence. Not everyone flies SAR - some of us have real jobs, doing real things with helis that have to make money. We don't get the chance to stand around, patting ourselves on the back, telling ourselves (and anyone else who will listen) what great pilots we are. So maybe in your world this "curved," shallow, fast approach is what works. But for those of us who don't operate from airports, that won't work.
Speaking of which by the way, I'm still breathlessly waiting for your response to my three scenarios that I've previously posted. I know it's hard to believe, but all across the globe people use single-engine helis for a variety of things, including offshore and off-airport work. So I'm eager to hear your suggestions as to how a super pilot such as yourself would handle certain things. How do you do an approach to an offshore oil rig without being deeply inside the H-V curve? How to you do a site landing to a confined area without doing the same? Please enlighten us.
As for this "Old Man Rotor" piece of work. Well OMR, you certainly must be old, but your "rotor" qualifications are open for question. You say:
Steep Offshore Approaches........now your in quicksand and up to your neck.
People look at these threads with the view of educating themselves, so I have to correct quite "Bluntly" your steep approach suggestions.
Why a steep approach....are you really suggesting its the best way to successfully land on the platform when somethings goes foul with your engine?
Your answer please....
People look at these threads with the view of educating themselves, so I have to correct quite "Bluntly" your steep approach suggestions.
Why a steep approach....are you really suggesting its the best way to successfully land on the platform when somethings goes foul with your engine?
Your answer please....
PF#1, be careful. If we have to warn you again, you'll get the form letter we keep handy for Lu Zuckerman. Your mod status will be revoked and you might have to re-register under yet another screen name. -Helliport
To Shy of Torque. About CRM. When two pilots fly together in a "crew" situation, or in an instructor/student situation, then yes, what you say is true and I agree with you. But remember, we're not talking about student pilots here. What about a pilot/owner who is no longer a student and who is acting as PIC of his own aircraft? This was the case in the two examples I cited. I had no authority in those aircraft - was not acting in any official capacity other than map reader/holder. These guys wanted and needed to feel as though they were "pilot in command." They certainly would not feel that way if they had some smart-arse high-timer sharpshooting and second-guessing them all the time from the co-jo's seat. It's a difficult, uncomfortable position to be in.
I like the "kindler, gentler" approach to instructing as much as the next guy. But with rated pilots it's like this:
Please don't do that. Here's why.
Please don't do that.
Please don't do that again.
Don't do that.
Did I mention not to do that?
Look, you bl**dy turd, DON'T DO THAT!
Again, it comes down to a question of how many times do you tell a pilot not to do something until you have to let him go and see why he should not do that particular thing? One guy actually said to me, "Look, I'm not going to be flying this thing commercially. I'm just a private owner." I replied that with me on board, he better fly it like the Churchill himself was along for the ride (I suppose that would be the equivalent of Richard Nixon to you Yanks).
Well, we've certainly beaten this topic to death. Just in case anyone missed it, I avoid shallow approaches in helicopters if I can. I'll say one thing though. I've never had any irate chicken plucker try to take me out with his cap. And I continue to wonder at just which big (i.e. multiple runway) airport in the U.K. there is farmland within 100 metres (300 feet) of the runway pavement. It seems quite odd, but maybe I need to get out more.
Oh yeah...still waiting for your response, Crab!
Hilico asked:
Let's all be fair here. I am an inexperienced heli pilot - 11 hours dual in total over 20 years. So I'm on my first lesson of circuits. Seven times in one hour we go through "the gate", 60kts/mph (can't remember the units, tsk tsk), at 500 ft with the spot in front of us. But every time, we were over a school playground. I kept thinking, "can't we keep the speed up for longer, and lower collective when we know the landing is assured?"
The trouble is, you have to learn all types of approaches. And at your level of learning, the "normal" approache is what you need to concentrate on now. Other types will come in time.
It is unfortunate that there is a school playground right under the finals at the airport where you are taking lessons (but it might even be chicken coops!). Rest assured, they do hear the helicopter down there. And they are probably annoyed by it. If there was a way to avoid flying over it, let us hope that your flight school would've explored it by now.
It is smart to keep your eyes on what is underneath you as you fly and modify your profile accordingly. To fail to do so would expose you as an unprofessional, inconsiderate rank amateur.
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Health Warning..........[your own health]
Please note that the poster "PPRUNE FAN#1" has been posting statements and answers that are contrary to the Helicopter Industry best standards and practices.
Whilst I am sure he / she does / can make some valid points, in general he / she is not presenting the most accepted and safe method of operating helicopters in today's industry.
Some of his / her statements are ficticous, dangerous and technically inept.
There are a significant number of knowledgable people in these threads that can and do make valid and worthwhile contributions to Pprune....."PPRUNEFAN #1" is not one of them.
As a service to the high standard of both Onshore and Offshore pilots around the world and to Pprune itself, I will try and place this warning after each and every statement that Mr / Mrs PPRUNE FAN#1 makes, to ensure that you do not accept his / her statements as representative of our industry.
Whilst I am sure he / she does / can make some valid points, in general he / she is not presenting the most accepted and safe method of operating helicopters in today's industry.
Some of his / her statements are ficticous, dangerous and technically inept.
There are a significant number of knowledgable people in these threads that can and do make valid and worthwhile contributions to Pprune....."PPRUNEFAN #1" is not one of them.
As a service to the high standard of both Onshore and Offshore pilots around the world and to Pprune itself, I will try and place this warning after each and every statement that Mr / Mrs PPRUNE FAN#1 makes, to ensure that you do not accept his / her statements as representative of our industry.
Last edited by Old Man Rotor; 4th May 2003 at 06:41.
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Quality thread chaps! Best value on PPrune for ages.
In my experience (far less than many here I figure), I always try to weigh up the scenario before making the approach. I usually figure that a low (ish) approach with speed, whilst it may sometimes inconvenience or annoy some on the ground, will not generally result in my precious skin (or those of my crew) being bruised in the event something goes wrong. And climbing to the LS can be better still in the mountains!
An unduly steep approach can help keep the neighbours happy, but you can look a right prat when the donk stops.
It's all about captaincy.
Every approach is different.
I agree with PP1 that sometimes a steep approach can be necessary. I've sometimes had to descend maybe 300' vertically (night, IMC and poor weather, back of bowl feature, mountains, very high power, no flyaway). It was what was called for at the time, and if it goes wrong then you just have to take the rough with the smooth. The same goes for confined areas. That's what we get paid for. You just need a few beers at the end of the shift.
I merely suggest that gate approaches, with a ground track chosen appropriate to local obstacles, are generally better than steep, slow approaches. (An appropriate level of) speed can give you more options. Keep your flyaway for as long as possible. It's what I'd commend to other pilots.
And don't be foolish enough to mess about in single engined helicopters!
In my experience (far less than many here I figure), I always try to weigh up the scenario before making the approach. I usually figure that a low (ish) approach with speed, whilst it may sometimes inconvenience or annoy some on the ground, will not generally result in my precious skin (or those of my crew) being bruised in the event something goes wrong. And climbing to the LS can be better still in the mountains!
An unduly steep approach can help keep the neighbours happy, but you can look a right prat when the donk stops.
It's all about captaincy.
Every approach is different.
I agree with PP1 that sometimes a steep approach can be necessary. I've sometimes had to descend maybe 300' vertically (night, IMC and poor weather, back of bowl feature, mountains, very high power, no flyaway). It was what was called for at the time, and if it goes wrong then you just have to take the rough with the smooth. The same goes for confined areas. That's what we get paid for. You just need a few beers at the end of the shift.
I merely suggest that gate approaches, with a ground track chosen appropriate to local obstacles, are generally better than steep, slow approaches. (An appropriate level of) speed can give you more options. Keep your flyaway for as long as possible. It's what I'd commend to other pilots.
And don't be foolish enough to mess about in single engined helicopters!
Avoid imitations
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PF#1,
Now you have at least stopped calling me names, I will say that I do have some understanding of the situation you have been in with pilots who seem to stop learning once they are qualified.
However, with experience, I would play it slightly differently to how I might have done in my own past. I have learned that some people tend to "blank out" memories of unpleasant exchanges and so might not remember a "right rollocking" as readily as one might think they should, strange as it seems.
I would a) probably not voluntarily go flying with qualified pilots who seem to keep making the same silly mistakes and explain why not, or b) if I did, I would give my advice early rather than late "I knew that would happen" type rebuffs.
A timely polite rhetorical question such as "are we OK for performance on this next landing?" or "could we go a little higher, I'm finding difficulty in seeing my way to the airfield" can be used rather than an angry outburst. Next time the other guy might remember to ask himself the same question and then he's learned his lesson.
CRM issues? As I said, if I'm in the aircraft, in any capacity, it's still my arse that's likely to get busted too if the flight goes pear shaped.
These days I fly two pilot aircraft, we don't employ co-pilots but take turns to be commander. We check up on each other, gently take the pi$$ out of each other all day, take the same in return in good spirit and help prevent each other's mistakes before they happen if we possibly can.
It's not a good safe cockpit environment if one guy is thinking he's not in charge but wishes he was and the other is thinking he's in charge but wishes he wasn't.
I need every spare brain cell I can scrape together to be at my best. A bad cockpit environment makes me use some of them up thinking about stuff I could well do without.
Now you have at least stopped calling me names, I will say that I do have some understanding of the situation you have been in with pilots who seem to stop learning once they are qualified.
However, with experience, I would play it slightly differently to how I might have done in my own past. I have learned that some people tend to "blank out" memories of unpleasant exchanges and so might not remember a "right rollocking" as readily as one might think they should, strange as it seems.
I would a) probably not voluntarily go flying with qualified pilots who seem to keep making the same silly mistakes and explain why not, or b) if I did, I would give my advice early rather than late "I knew that would happen" type rebuffs.
A timely polite rhetorical question such as "are we OK for performance on this next landing?" or "could we go a little higher, I'm finding difficulty in seeing my way to the airfield" can be used rather than an angry outburst. Next time the other guy might remember to ask himself the same question and then he's learned his lesson.
CRM issues? As I said, if I'm in the aircraft, in any capacity, it's still my arse that's likely to get busted too if the flight goes pear shaped.
These days I fly two pilot aircraft, we don't employ co-pilots but take turns to be commander. We check up on each other, gently take the pi$$ out of each other all day, take the same in return in good spirit and help prevent each other's mistakes before they happen if we possibly can.
It's not a good safe cockpit environment if one guy is thinking he's not in charge but wishes he was and the other is thinking he's in charge but wishes he wasn't.
I need every spare brain cell I can scrape together to be at my best. A bad cockpit environment makes me use some of them up thinking about stuff I could well do without.
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The question remains unanswered....
Why a steep approach....are you really suggesting its the best way to successfully land on the platform when somethings goes foul with your engine?
Your answer please....
And in helicopters with more than one engine......I guess your suggestion is a steep approach with little or no torque indication, lightly loaded disc is the best and safest way?
Your answer again please.
Your answer please....
And in helicopters with more than one engine......I guess your suggestion is a steep approach with little or no torque indication, lightly loaded disc is the best and safest way?
Your answer again please.
Old Man....if you want to have a real deep dish meal....lock a Bristow 212 TRE in a room with an Air Log Check Airman and an ERA-Alaska Cook Inlet Pilot....and throw out the steep vs. shallow approach or anything in between deal and watch the fur fly. When you bore of that bloody (american usage) scene....then bring in the second Bristow 212 TRE and an ARAMCO Safety Pilot and have them challenge each other's concept of takeoff techiques from offshore platforms. The only common fact to any of the arguments will be that all the companies fly the same make and model of aircraft. Each company has the unique way to Salvation and any discussion otherwise is pure folly. Why should this thread be any different.
I have been told at various times....in various standards of firmness....that my approaches were too steep...too shallow...too fast...too slow...had too much pitch attitude change....not enough change....hovered too high...hovered too low...started too far back...too far forward....should have climbed at Vx, accelerated level until reaching Vy.....and so on and so forth....depending upon who was sitting in the other seat in the "training-checking" mode. I remain totally confused.....the one thing that remained constant.....not one of the outfits wanted to hear how "we used to do it at ..........! " In that one area of concern they each were very much in lock step.
One would think the current amalgamation of international airlaws into one Joint volume would be a golden time to try to sort out some of this ?
I have been told at various times....in various standards of firmness....that my approaches were too steep...too shallow...too fast...too slow...had too much pitch attitude change....not enough change....hovered too high...hovered too low...started too far back...too far forward....should have climbed at Vx, accelerated level until reaching Vy.....and so on and so forth....depending upon who was sitting in the other seat in the "training-checking" mode. I remain totally confused.....the one thing that remained constant.....not one of the outfits wanted to hear how "we used to do it at ..........! " In that one area of concern they each were very much in lock step.
One would think the current amalgamation of international airlaws into one Joint volume would be a golden time to try to sort out some of this ?
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tot
prune 1 says a steeper aproach. most of us are just arguing with him on that one, but a steep aproach is likely in different situations like this one. after all you have to find the balance between safety and environmental impact. just seeing the chicken coops would have altered my aproach path to probably steering around them.
i was aproaching a station the otherday and noticed a couple thousand head of cattle yarded up. as i was closing fairly fast, i initiated a split ass turning decent to tree top hight, to eliminate noise and a bit of fun, to radio in and ask for fuel. he told me the cows were mothering up, and that they would bring the fuel to the front gate.
the chances of me keeping my curent job would have greatly diminished if i had of continued in.
i was aproaching a station the otherday and noticed a couple thousand head of cattle yarded up. as i was closing fairly fast, i initiated a split ass turning decent to tree top hight, to eliminate noise and a bit of fun, to radio in and ask for fuel. he told me the cows were mothering up, and that they would bring the fuel to the front gate.
the chances of me keeping my curent job would have greatly diminished if i had of continued in.
Last edited by vorticey; 4th May 2003 at 15:49.
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Struth, you blokes are a bit harsh on the old robbo pilots.
I happen to know a few blokes that will fly rings around most of you blokes, in the bigga stuff, in a robbo.
I woulda thought that bursting around in a robbo was a tad harder than than flying the twin turbine jiggers in straight lines.
Aaaah what would I know, I'm only a ringer.
I happen to know a few blokes that will fly rings around most of you blokes, in the bigga stuff, in a robbo.
I woulda thought that bursting around in a robbo was a tad harder than than flying the twin turbine jiggers in straight lines.
Aaaah what would I know, I'm only a ringer.
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Sassy....
I take your points................
I just want to give this Technically Inept Dork [capital D] the opportunity to explain to the world, in a technical sense, why we are doing it wrong.
He has now been asked twice....to no avail.
I just want to give this Technically Inept Dork [capital D] the opportunity to explain to the world, in a technical sense, why we are doing it wrong.
He has now been asked twice....to no avail.
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The wizard of auz
No Mate.....don't take it that way.......
You guys in the bush with Roobies certainly can do things.... that I am willing to let you do all alone!!!
Your a valuable part of the industry........But.....enjoy your swag, I'll take the Sheraton thanks.....
You guys in the bush with Roobies certainly can do things.... that I am willing to let you do all alone!!!
Your a valuable part of the industry........But.....enjoy your swag, I'll take the Sheraton thanks.....
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Red wine, all right then, I wont take it that way. .
I certainly do enjoy me swag..... and the Sheraton, but they won't let me take me swag in there........ and thats probably a good thing coz it wont fit in the ol robbo.
.I certainly do enjoy me swag..... and the Sheraton, but they won't let me take me swag in there........ and thats probably a good thing coz it wont fit in the ol robbo.
Sticks and stones may break my bones etc etc etc
OK PPF#1 my suggestions (which I am sure you will wholeheartedly disagree with) to your jolly demanding scenarios
Scenario 1) Approach to an oil platform that is 100' feet above the water;
Answer - either a normal sight picture approach (3 to 6 degrees) or a level approach to the hover 10-15' above the height of the deck - either could be curved to avoid obstacles/turbulence from the superstructure- most definitely not a 12+ degree approach that by its steepness might take you through the exhaust of the rig.
Scenario 2) A landing to an off-airport site 100' in diameter surrounded by tall trees;
Answer - 100' diameter site is huge but you haven't defined tall trees - if you mean 100'+ then a double angle approach initially aiming at the far side tree tops of the clearing and then once the tail is clear, steepening slightly. Or in a proper confined area an approach to the HOGE (ideally level as it requires less power) then a vertical descent once over the middle of the clearing.
Scenario 3) An approach to an airport where the designated landing spot is near the field boundary, where there are obstructions in the approach path.
Answer - a curved approach so as not to fly over the obstacles if necessary out of wind.
A confined area is the only situation that demands a steeper approach by its very nature and that is only at the end.
I know you will argue that 20 years of military helo flying into all sorts of sites (yes I've even landed on a rig!!!) does not count as the real world in your book but you are trying to advocate a steep approach for all occasions which is downright dangerous. I hope the less experienced pilots here will not listen to a word of your inaccurate, pathetically rude and personal rantings.
OK PPF#1 my suggestions (which I am sure you will wholeheartedly disagree with) to your jolly demanding scenarios
Scenario 1) Approach to an oil platform that is 100' feet above the water;
Answer - either a normal sight picture approach (3 to 6 degrees) or a level approach to the hover 10-15' above the height of the deck - either could be curved to avoid obstacles/turbulence from the superstructure- most definitely not a 12+ degree approach that by its steepness might take you through the exhaust of the rig.
Scenario 2) A landing to an off-airport site 100' in diameter surrounded by tall trees;
Answer - 100' diameter site is huge but you haven't defined tall trees - if you mean 100'+ then a double angle approach initially aiming at the far side tree tops of the clearing and then once the tail is clear, steepening slightly. Or in a proper confined area an approach to the HOGE (ideally level as it requires less power) then a vertical descent once over the middle of the clearing.
Scenario 3) An approach to an airport where the designated landing spot is near the field boundary, where there are obstructions in the approach path.
Answer - a curved approach so as not to fly over the obstacles if necessary out of wind.
A confined area is the only situation that demands a steeper approach by its very nature and that is only at the end.
I know you will argue that 20 years of military helo flying into all sorts of sites (yes I've even landed on a rig!!!) does not count as the real world in your book but you are trying to advocate a steep approach for all occasions which is downright dangerous. I hope the less experienced pilots here will not listen to a word of your inaccurate, pathetically rude and personal rantings.
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Crab,Now you know the way you were taught to approach a rig in the military, sea level - until 200 yards from the rig and then haul back on the stick and pop up onto the pad avoiding the aerials . LOL
As someone on here once said," never argue with a fool, he will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience!"
I am very interested however, in how the single engined helicopters that PF1 has mentioned could go into an OGE hover with 6 PAX into a rig.
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Here is my opinion, AGAIN.
If during an approach to most any decent airport in the world . . . . . . you fly low enough to be within reach of a hat THROWN BY A FARMER,
YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING VERY WRONG.
P E R I O D
The nice thing about helicopters is that you can manuver a 1,000,000 ways to avoid bothering anyone or getting yourself into trouble.
If any heli pilot can't do this, or has no common sense to do this, then may I suggest flying airplanes in which common sense is not so essential since you have all those nice, checklists, SOP, approach charts, computers, autopilots, and procedures to do or tell how to do things for you.
If during an approach to most any decent airport in the world . . . . . . you fly low enough to be within reach of a hat THROWN BY A FARMER,
YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING VERY WRONG.
P E R I O D
The nice thing about helicopters is that you can manuver a 1,000,000 ways to avoid bothering anyone or getting yourself into trouble.
If any heli pilot can't do this, or has no common sense to do this, then may I suggest flying airplanes in which common sense is not so essential since you have all those nice, checklists, SOP, approach charts, computers, autopilots, and procedures to do or tell how to do things for you.
Hovver Bovver, now you're talking fun - in the dark on goggles, fast roping onto rigs - I'm sure PPF1 would fly a 12 degree approach to that too!
Blenderpilot - you are absolutely correct, there are many different ways of making an approach in a helicopter - that is why so many of us object when we are told by dorks like PPF1 that we should all be flying steep approaches all the time.
Blenderpilot - you are absolutely correct, there are many different ways of making an approach in a helicopter - that is why so many of us object when we are told by dorks like PPF1 that we should all be flying steep approaches all the time.