Kedarnath 119 (Kestrel) spins off pad
Full left pedal only works inside the certified flight envelope.
Nubian
That is hardly a high hover , 10 to 12 ft at most. No idea on a 119 , if throttle is a twist grip, why not close it and put her down, or were the pax too close ? or was he not trained ?
That is hardly a high hover , 10 to 12 ft at most. No idea on a 119 , if throttle is a twist grip, why not close it and put her down, or were the pax too close ? or was he not trained ?
I am aware 212man.
Hence my comment about all the folks on the pad he was attempting to land on. in the first video.
My comment on departures with no hover check was prompted by the second video on the thread showing a takeoff. “Yank, stomp on right pedal while simultaneously rotating forward”.
The trouble is, there is no warning light, or caption, or other text message conveyed to the pilot that he is outside of the certified flight envelope. Wouldn't that be nice! We pilots have to know what the performance limits are, and know when we're inside or outside of them. That's our job. That's that "pilot sh*t* we get paid handsomely for.
Sometimes full left pedal doesn't work even if you're still within the flight envelope. If you're really heavy, hovering on a high-DA day with a tailwind, full left pedal might not work to keep the nose pointed where you want. Helicopters are big weathervanes, and they strongly want to point into the wind. If full left pedal doesn't allow you to keep it pointed where you want, then you have to come up with a Plan B. And quickly. You can't just sit there like a big dummy, trying to figure out what's going on. If you're terminating an approach and you're at a high hover and it starts to rotate despite the application of full "power pedal," then you *HAVE* to remedy that situation...and fast! Lower the collective and drop down to a lower hover...see if that works. If it doesn't, you *HAVE* to get rid of some of that torque. Setting down while yawing isn't ideal, but it's better than crashing. You might also get down low and roll the throttle off. You don't have to be Chuck (Yeager or Aaron, your choice) to know how to do this stuff.
Let's guess that it wasn't the accident pilot's first approach of the day to that pad. If so, he must have known how close he was to the left-pedal stop on previous approaches - if indeed he paid attention to such things. So he should have been expecting this situation and had a plan of what to do if/when it happened. In commercial operations, there can be no "average" pilots. We have to be "above average" in skill. Or else things like this happen. It's just lucky, I guess, that nobody was ejected from that aircraft and killed.
Sometimes full left pedal doesn't work even if you're still within the flight envelope. If you're really heavy, hovering on a high-DA day with a tailwind, full left pedal might not work to keep the nose pointed where you want. Helicopters are big weathervanes, and they strongly want to point into the wind. If full left pedal doesn't allow you to keep it pointed where you want, then you have to come up with a Plan B. And quickly. You can't just sit there like a big dummy, trying to figure out what's going on. If you're terminating an approach and you're at a high hover and it starts to rotate despite the application of full "power pedal," then you *HAVE* to remedy that situation...and fast! Lower the collective and drop down to a lower hover...see if that works. If it doesn't, you *HAVE* to get rid of some of that torque. Setting down while yawing isn't ideal, but it's better than crashing. You might also get down low and roll the throttle off. You don't have to be Chuck (Yeager or Aaron, your choice) to know how to do this stuff.
Let's guess that it wasn't the accident pilot's first approach of the day to that pad. If so, he must have known how close he was to the left-pedal stop on previous approaches - if indeed he paid attention to such things. So he should have been expecting this situation and had a plan of what to do if/when it happened. In commercial operations, there can be no "average" pilots. We have to be "above average" in skill. Or else things like this happen. It's just lucky, I guess, that nobody was ejected from that aircraft and killed.
If he had come to the hover over the pad instead of well short of it, the reduced height agl and flat surface might have given him some IGE performance.
But since he was over much lower, steeper ground (where he eventually crashed) any ground effect benefit was denied.
But since he was over much lower, steeper ground (where he eventually crashed) any ground effect benefit was denied.
As far as the reason for him to stop short, I recon it's due to the crowd (all to common over there) congesting his landing-zone.
For training, my guess is fair to poor....
FH1100 Pilot
Sometimes full left pedal doesn't work even if you're still within the flight envelope. If you're really heavy, hovering on a high-DA day with a tailwind, full left pedal might not work to keep the nose pointed where you want.
Do you think it would gracefully descend like it does at sea level? More like a brick I would estimate.
RVDT
Looks like he was over the pad seeing how the pax ran ? From the video he seems to rotate back to the sloping ground, if he had shut the throttle from 10 ft over the concrete, rotation would have slowed or stopped and ended on the concrete ?
Just seen one of the other videos which shows him short of the pad, so yup OGE
Looks like he was over the pad seeing how the pax ran ? From the video he seems to rotate back to the sloping ground, if he had shut the throttle from 10 ft over the concrete, rotation would have slowed or stopped and ended on the concrete ?
Just seen one of the other videos which shows him short of the pad, so yup OGE
RVDT
Looks like he was over the pad seeing how the pax ran ? From the video he seems to rotate back to the sloping ground, if he had shut the throttle from 10 ft over the concrete, rotation would have slowed or stopped and ended on the concrete ?
Just seen one of the other videos which shows him short of the pad, so yup OGE
Looks like he was over the pad seeing how the pax ran ? From the video he seems to rotate back to the sloping ground, if he had shut the throttle from 10 ft over the concrete, rotation would have slowed or stopped and ended on the concrete ?
Just seen one of the other videos which shows him short of the pad, so yup OGE
I don’t think shutting the throttle would have been a good idea as he was heavy and high he would have landed very hard. That height is probably survivable with heavy airframe damage.
lowering the collective in the early stages when the rate of rotation was fairly low may have been enough to stop the spin it certainly would have reduced it. Landing would then be at a more reasonable ROD and you would still have the option to pull pitch at the bottom even if that increased the spin.
We tend to fixate on procedure to remove spin for an emergency. Stopping spin but having a massive ROD doesn’t really solve your problem. Flat concrete pad he’s got a reasonable chance to not roll it.
That same Hellicopter landing there before, coming super shalow, tail stinger almost boucing on the pad threshold, with a tad of forward speed on touchdown.
other videos they all do it like that, 350s, 407s, 206s...
That same Hellicopter landing there before, coming super shalow, tail stinger almost boucing on the pad threshold, with a tad of forward speed on touchdown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVhJmr0jznU
other videos they all do it like that, 350s, 407s, 206s...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVhJmr0jznU
other videos they all do it like that, 350s, 407s, 206s...
If he had come in faster with a big flare at the end I could have understood your concern but they looked like well controlled approaches and landings at very high DA.
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I really don't see why the pilot could not lower the lever, stick forward a bit, to reduce right spin, and cushion it onto the pad. Also, in those parts of the world, landing with your tail rotor over the ledge is usefull because it eliminates the risk of earthlings doing a tail rotor selfie/haircut.
Based on my Himalaya flying experience, by mid morning the wind will usually be blowing up the valley, early mornings it blows down the valley, although I don't know the conditions there on the day. Perhaps the wind switched? either way, it looks like a total f*** up.
Based on my Himalaya flying experience, by mid morning the wind will usually be blowing up the valley, early mornings it blows down the valley, although I don't know the conditions there on the day. Perhaps the wind switched? either way, it looks like a total f*** up.
That same Hellicopter landing there before, coming super shalow, tail stinger almost boucing on the pad threshold, with a tad of forward speed on touchdown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVhJmr0jznU
other videos they all do it like that, 350s, 407s, 206s...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVhJmr0jznU
other videos they all do it like that, 350s, 407s, 206s...
Hot/high performance of the AW119 is not that great. I don't know how much fuel they had on board here, but from my experience, a landing at 12k ft with a full cabin would be pretty performance limited even on a cold winter day. If that's really ISA+20, then I wouldn't have to pull up any performance charts to turn the job down.
This type also requires a pretty significant amount of airspeed to gain or re-gain ETL. When you're at the red line in a high hover and try to accelerate, there is a far more pronounced "dip" in altitude before you gain lift than in other similar size types like the 407 or AS350. My point is, once they lost ETL, the lady in the dashboard probably started yelling, and outcome in the video is then not far from the best case scenario.
This type also requires a pretty significant amount of airspeed to gain or re-gain ETL. When you're at the red line in a high hover and try to accelerate, there is a far more pronounced "dip" in altitude before you gain lift than in other similar size types like the 407 or AS350. My point is, once they lost ETL, the lady in the dashboard probably started yelling, and outcome in the video is then not far from the best case scenario.
