AAC H135M replace Gazelles

[gipsymagpie]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

I would think the 135 TRDF procedure is similar to the As 365 with the advice to maintain higher speeds for the running landing to keep airflow over the fin to produce the anti-torque thrust required.

Not really, you just do an autorotation to an EOL (iaw PCL)

You could do a fast running landing, but with skids it would be a different ball game to the wheeled AS365. The sim suggests you could get away with it but I wouldn't want to try for real.

[gipsymagpie]

Originally Posted by trim it out

The model we have doesn't have the end plates on the horizontal.

Thanks for the heads up on the TRDF, I'll have a dig into it if/when I return to 135

They lopped off the end plates and the lower fin to make out of wind hovering require less extremes of pedal...great for hoisting in the mountains...not so good for suppressing Dutch roll in forward flight and the 90 kt limit on IAS mode IFR. You win some, you lose some.

And the solution is to add more fin...genius.

[[email protected]]

Not really, you just do an autorotation to an EOL (iaw PCL)

That was an option on the 365 as well but again, although the sim thinks you can do it, you wouldn't want to try it for real.

A fast running landing on tarmac wouldn't be so bad, at least the friction would help directional control - it would be scary for sure but more controllable I think. Once you start the flare in an EOL with no TR you are in the lap of the Gods.

[casper64]

Originally Posted by gipsymagpie

Not really, you just do an autorotation to an EOL (iaw PCL)

You could do a fast running landing, but with skids it would be a different ball game to the wheeled AS365. The sim suggests you could get away with it but I wouldn't want to try for real.

Heard an Eurocopter pilot did it on a Runway some 20 years ago without issues. Aircraft was not even damaged and is flying again. (Just needed some new skid shoes I guess :-) ) (Don’t know if he did an AR or running landing…)

[Thud_and_Blunder]

You could do a fast running landing, but with skids it would be a different ball game to the wheeled AS365

Anyone else here remember the Met Police Bell 222 with TR problems that did a lovely high-speed running landing? All went well to touchdown (kudos), but I believe even differential braking couldn't keep it straight and it went off the runway/tipped over. Helis with high CofGs and relatively narrow wheel/skid track are going to experience significant roll moment as the aircraft yaws at speed on the ground. If the heli decelerates rapidly in a straight line before yaw starts to take effect the risk of the roll moment building is potentially reduced. I had a single engine problem in a 135T1 at night - carried out a running landing to a well-lit cargo apron instead of the runway proffered by ATC (dark desert surroundings, reduced height/depth perception). No yaw, hardly had to touch the pedals. With hindsight I was glad to have chosen the apron, as the surface wasn't finished to the same high standard as the runway so the friction (and resultant deceleration) was greater. The run-on was about 30m - a lot of noise and a shower of sparks behind the aircraft which was distracting, but the only things that needed replacing were the skid shoes. I was unfortunate enough later that year when training with a student to do a run-on to the main runway which resulted in more damage: after touchdown, the aircraft slid for over 100m even with the lever down, and I failed to stop the aircraft from yawing over the centreline lights. They might only be approx 2cm above the surface, with chamfered edges, but that was still enough to snap the right rear skid post. Moral to these tales - if you have to do a run-on landing in an aircraft with skids, use a taxiway or apron for preference and - if you have to use a runway - stay away from the centreline. I wouldn't use grass unless it was a patch I knew well (Middle Wallop or Tern Hill, for example) and had faith in the grounds-maintenance folk to keep it flat.

Once you start the flare in an EOL with no TR you are in the lap of the Gods

Absolutely right - teaching the exercise in the sim, we stressed the need to tighten the flare slightly more than for a 'normal' EOL to kill off all forward speed, then concentrate on getting the floor absolutely level for touchdown. Glad I'll never have to be the person who has to try it for real - retirement is a wonderful thing

[MightyGem]

Heard an Eurocopter pilot did it on a Runway some 20 years ago without issues. Aircraft was not even damaged and is flying again. (Just needed some new skid shoes I guess :-)

As did the Merseyside Police Twin Squirrel in 1993. Very poor quality video, but the stationary tail rotor can clearly be seen.

You Tube

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Did NOT know about that one, Gem - what a lovely bit of flying!

[[email protected]]

Textbook stuff and a great outcome - Kudos

[melmothtw]

Whatever the truth of the H135 vs H145 debate for training at DHFS, the MoD has just ordered another five of the former. Now at 34 H135s and 7 H145s, all in.

[[email protected]]

Are they looking to take on other defence-related training I wonder? Other nations military's have often wanted UK Mil level training.

[diginagain]

Originally Posted by MightyGem

As did the Merseyside Police Twin Squirrel in 1993. Very poor quality video, but the stationary tail rotor can clearly be seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3oVw6_0MEU

Chap did well.

[handysnaks]

JC, if I remember correctly. Top work by a top pilot.

[gipsymagpie]

Originally Posted by melmothtw

Whatever the truth of the H135 vs H145 debate for training at DHFS, the MoD has just ordered another five of the former. Now at 34 H135s and 7 H145s, all in.

Are not those the extras to replace Gazelle as per the original post? Not for Shawbs surely

[FloaterNorthWest]

Originally Posted by gipsymagpie

Are not those the extras to replace Gazelle as per the original post? Not for Shawbs surely

Not for Shawbury. Shawbury are Juno HT Mk 1 and these will be Juno AH Mk 1.

[gipsymagpie]

AH Mk2 is more likely as the mark number changes no matter what the letters are. Think Gazelle AH1, HT2, HT3, CC4

[melmothtw]

I don't see five helicopters being for a Gazelle replacement.

[diginagain]

Originally Posted by handysnaks

JC, if I remember correctly. Top work by a top pilot.

Apart from the bit that instigated the need for an EOL...

[handysnaks]

Cowling issue (I think).

[[email protected]]

I don't see five helicopters being for a Gazelle replacement.

pretty much what they need for 5 Regt AAC.

[MightyGem]

Originally Posted by handysnaks

JC, if I remember correctly. Top work by a top pilot.

Cowling issue (I think).

Yes to both.