UK Air Ambulance night flights
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UK Air Ambulance night flights
BBC News - Air ambulance night flights are set to begin
Edited to add :- is this new or just a rehash of old news?
Edited to add :- is this new or just a rehash of old news?
Last edited by Pittsextra; 24th May 2013 at 19:04.
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I imagine that was the plan and the delay in starting may have been regulatory red tape. Better late than never when introducing a significant advance for UK operations. Good luck!
Last Thursday I attended an excellent lecture at the Royal Aeronautical Society on day and night all environment flying including NVGs, LLTV, FLIR and synthetic vision. Both the presentation and the subsequent discussion emphasised the limitations of NVGs, the failures of equipment, and in particular that landing helis away from pre planned LZs and airports was far far more difficult than low flying GR2s in zero vis
Against this we have to ask why? Most rural trauma such as horse riding accidents, mountaineering and farming simply don't occur at night. Vehicle accidents are often covered by prehospital doctors and road congestion is less of a problem.
I am sure senior ambulance officers who have seen with relief how helicopters can help them meet government targets without any detriment to their budgets are keen to roll them out to 24 hour operations, but the question has to be asked as to whether the risk benefit ratio has been properly assessed. A parallel thread on this site is discussing how UK HEMS has far lower accident rates than the US. Many US accidents have been related to night and poor vis flights.
Against this we have to ask why? Most rural trauma such as horse riding accidents, mountaineering and farming simply don't occur at night. Vehicle accidents are often covered by prehospital doctors and road congestion is less of a problem.
I am sure senior ambulance officers who have seen with relief how helicopters can help them meet government targets without any detriment to their budgets are keen to roll them out to 24 hour operations, but the question has to be asked as to whether the risk benefit ratio has been properly assessed. A parallel thread on this site is discussing how UK HEMS has far lower accident rates than the US. Many US accidents have been related to night and poor vis flights.
In 20 years of using NVG, I have never had either a tube or battery failure - the technology is mature and robust and, as long as you maintain them properly, NVG are extremely reliable.
NVG ops to unrecced sites is not rocket science but it does need training and practice - I am sure that the AOCs will have set out quite clear minimum weather and light levels for AA ops.
NVG ops to unrecced sites is not rocket science but it does need training and practice - I am sure that the AOCs will have set out quite clear minimum weather and light levels for AA ops.
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Crab, it looks like AA will not be allowed down to military limits. Talking to the crews and seeing/flying the aircraft, the risk will be reduced somewhat. The poster above who mentions poor vis/night accident rates is correct. I would guess that the mature experienced crews trialling this capability will take things carefully and step by step. They know an accident could pull the plug and they will fly accordingly.
When we started doing night fields in N Ireland in the early 90s, I was a doom merchant, saying we would have an accident straight away. I am happy to admit that I was totally wrong and the incident rate has been incredibly low ever since.
Lets give this a chance and judge it on actions, not predictions. If it is unsafe, the company will not be scared to pull the plug. management is robust and, in my view, totally supportive of crews.
When we started doing night fields in N Ireland in the early 90s, I was a doom merchant, saying we would have an accident straight away. I am happy to admit that I was totally wrong and the incident rate has been incredibly low ever since.
Lets give this a chance and judge it on actions, not predictions. If it is unsafe, the company will not be scared to pull the plug. management is robust and, in my view, totally supportive of crews.
Hi Wannabe
That is a pretty meaningless statement unless there is a bit more information - what percentage of the total flights were carried out single pilot?
Using your argument, I can prove that single-pilot operations are far safer than multi-pilot - From memory, the following multi-pilot aircraft experienced unintended controlled flight into (or onto) the sea around the UK, BIH S76, Penzance S61, Coastguard S61, Cormorant 'A' Puma, Bond Puma. How many single-pilot helicopters did the same? I've got a feeling the answer is zero. Ergo, single-pilot operations are far safer than multi-pilot!
...and while I think of it, what did the 66% of accidents over the past twenty years involve, if they didn't hit anything?
Cheers
TeeS
Of the accidents over the past 20 years, one in three - involved the aircraft hitting something. With the exception of a pilot-check ride in Michigan in May 2007, all the others were operated by a single pilot.
Using your argument, I can prove that single-pilot operations are far safer than multi-pilot - From memory, the following multi-pilot aircraft experienced unintended controlled flight into (or onto) the sea around the UK, BIH S76, Penzance S61, Coastguard S61, Cormorant 'A' Puma, Bond Puma. How many single-pilot helicopters did the same? I've got a feeling the answer is zero. Ergo, single-pilot operations are far safer than multi-pilot!
...and while I think of it, what did the 66% of accidents over the past twenty years involve, if they didn't hit anything?
Cheers
TeeS
Thank you to all who posted in reply to my last post. I am certainly not an expert in NVGs but my understanding is that firstly not all objects are visible and secondly that crew need significant and ongoing training. Their use relies on a degree of background illumination
This increase in cost and possible reduction in safety has to be offset against need. Despite the previous posting, at night most areas have good cover from pre hospital care practitioners - doctors with advanced skills beyond those of paramedics - and their response times at night for road accidents and the odd stabbing (one in twenty years on my patch) is as good as HEMS
I am keen to achieve a coordinated HEMS system funded by the NHS as opposed to the current vagaries. This will not be helped by increasing costs especially if no benefits can be proved.
This increase in cost and possible reduction in safety has to be offset against need. Despite the previous posting, at night most areas have good cover from pre hospital care practitioners - doctors with advanced skills beyond those of paramedics - and their response times at night for road accidents and the odd stabbing (one in twenty years on my patch) is as good as HEMS
I am keen to achieve a coordinated HEMS system funded by the NHS as opposed to the current vagaries. This will not be helped by increasing costs especially if no benefits can be proved.
Jayteeto - I presume by military limits you are referring to the heights at which we fly low level on NVG - if so I would definitely hope that is not what night HEMS is planning!
Presumably the intention is to use NVG at normal (reversionary) night flying heights to improve lookout and weather awareness and the only new bit will be the letdown, recce and approach into the LS.
Tees - some of those crashes weren't at night and most involved procedural failures The number of pilots on board is irrelevant - night HEMS overland is a very different kettle of fish.
There will always be those who think they are better than the rest and can do single pilot NVG (mosty ex-military sadly) - goody for them but I would much prefer a second pilot.
Presumably the intention is to use NVG at normal (reversionary) night flying heights to improve lookout and weather awareness and the only new bit will be the letdown, recce and approach into the LS.
Tees - some of those crashes weren't at night and most involved procedural failures The number of pilots on board is irrelevant - night HEMS overland is a very different kettle of fish.
There will always be those who think they are better than the rest and can do single pilot NVG (mosty ex-military sadly) - goody for them but I would much prefer a second pilot.
Everyone forgets that the charity UK HEMS world used to do night HEMS, quite a few years ago!
....and in unstabilised cabs with just a nitesun, single pilot and non rated!
...until a certain police cab with autopilot and a rated pilot got 'disorientated' engaging the autopilot one night and hit the deck!
....and in unstabilised cabs with just a nitesun, single pilot and non rated!
...until a certain police cab with autopilot and a rated pilot got 'disorientated' engaging the autopilot one night and hit the deck!
Absolutely - keep the money away from central government (or NHS) control and you will retain the ability to tailor the AA capability and response to the local needs rather than a 'one size fits all but benefits no-one' NPAS solution.
There will always be those who think they are better than the rest and can do single pilot NVG (mosty ex-military sadly) - goody for them but I would much prefer a second pilot.
I am sure that the AOCs will have set out quite clear minimum weather and light levels for AA ops.
, I know what it's like. However, with all the domestic and cultural lighting reflecting from the cloud, it's going to be the weather limits that stop us from flying rather than the light levels. Unless it's a deep, dark valley in North Wales...
Are the AAs planning on two pilots or a pilot and trained Paramedic?
The NHS has indeed many problems, mostly relating to political meddling. Successive reorganisations and foolish moves such as PFI have wasted billions, demoralised staff and resulted in a health service far worse than many others in the western world. However, it remains a service to be envied because it provides universal access, free at point of use, and subject to objective assessment as well as political lobbying.
The public's generosity to HEMS is outstanding but we have systems of varying medical quality. Some have doctors on board which the Sheffield study demonstrated was the only way to prove lives saved. Others do not. There are also many operational issues. On more than one occasion I have been on the front line requesting air support only to find that system was down or unavailable.
I do not see why the ambulances and police are nationally funded, why the anaesthetist and surgeon are part of a national health system working to national standards and so on, but one link in the chain is not. A national system would provide uniform medical staffing, more uniform coverage and most importantly the possibility of proper audit. It is medically extraordinary that after 27 years and hundreds of millions of pounds we have no peer reviewed prospective study on medical outcome.
The other advantages would be a dedicated interhospital ITU transfer system for both adults and children which have been shown by such studies to save lives. HEMS aircraft are neither staffed nor equipped for this work.
Finally it would remove the risk, albeit small I accept, that funding might dry up. Perhaps more relevant is the ongoing evidence that the public has a finite pot for charitable giving. The UK's medical research has been decimated over the past 30 years and many lives have been truncated and lost as a result. Whether HEMS is more or less important than say high density lipid reuptake control research is irrelevant, but the latter may well have been cracked if funding had been more available. The public SARWannabe may indeed be happy to donate to HEMS, but if told that the money spent to save one life by HEMS could potentially prevent muturity onset diabetes which will affect 5 million in the UK in a few years and causes 4.6 million deaths a year worldwide.......
I dont believe we should have charities going head to head with each other - that would be self defeating and destructive. I do believe that an essential part of trauma care should be available to all, free at point of use and funded by government. Charities are better deployed to medical research
I recognise this thread is mostly used by pilots and in many ways you have good reason to question my stance because many of the aviation aspects, governed by ANO etc, are indeed standardised. It is when we consider the medical interface that we find the pitfalls and potential improvements.
The public's generosity to HEMS is outstanding but we have systems of varying medical quality. Some have doctors on board which the Sheffield study demonstrated was the only way to prove lives saved. Others do not. There are also many operational issues. On more than one occasion I have been on the front line requesting air support only to find that system was down or unavailable.
I do not see why the ambulances and police are nationally funded, why the anaesthetist and surgeon are part of a national health system working to national standards and so on, but one link in the chain is not. A national system would provide uniform medical staffing, more uniform coverage and most importantly the possibility of proper audit. It is medically extraordinary that after 27 years and hundreds of millions of pounds we have no peer reviewed prospective study on medical outcome.
The other advantages would be a dedicated interhospital ITU transfer system for both adults and children which have been shown by such studies to save lives. HEMS aircraft are neither staffed nor equipped for this work.
Finally it would remove the risk, albeit small I accept, that funding might dry up. Perhaps more relevant is the ongoing evidence that the public has a finite pot for charitable giving. The UK's medical research has been decimated over the past 30 years and many lives have been truncated and lost as a result. Whether HEMS is more or less important than say high density lipid reuptake control research is irrelevant, but the latter may well have been cracked if funding had been more available. The public SARWannabe may indeed be happy to donate to HEMS, but if told that the money spent to save one life by HEMS could potentially prevent muturity onset diabetes which will affect 5 million in the UK in a few years and causes 4.6 million deaths a year worldwide.......
I dont believe we should have charities going head to head with each other - that would be self defeating and destructive. I do believe that an essential part of trauma care should be available to all, free at point of use and funded by government. Charities are better deployed to medical research
I recognise this thread is mostly used by pilots and in many ways you have good reason to question my stance because many of the aviation aspects, governed by ANO etc, are indeed standardised. It is when we consider the medical interface that we find the pitfalls and potential improvements.
Homonculus: Welcome. It is as ever, a pleasure reading your contributions to this forum, as a "non pilot" you have significant insight into the trade, nonetheless.
If I may comment on your last post?
NVG - One day (not far away) ALL (civvy) night flying will mandate NVD's. First public services will go that way, then corporate/charter and finally GA.
It is inevitable. It is to helicopters what halide lights are to cars. There is no mystery to them anymore as Crab says. They have been around and proven time and time again. The CAA, as ever, are (a) being extra cautious and (b) under staffed in this department.
Night HEMS / /Air Ambulances:
I concur with your observation, too. The demand is perceived not prevailing.
This is where it gets 'interesting'. In the UK, HEMS and Air Ambulance, are seen by the public to be charity driven. By that I mean on face value the engine or driving force is: altruism. However, over the years it has become a front cover for small businesses generating millions of pounds, expensive machines, numerous staff and big salaries. Don't get me wrong - to date it still retains its virtues but the purpose for its existence might (by some) appear 'blurred'. Do you see what I am saying (without saying it!).
The public seem happy for it continue as is - so it does. The country is covered in them, we all benefit and that's great. But make no mistake, night flying in this industry will fuel the engine for a greater number and more expensive operations with more equipment and more staff - but will the benefits increase pro rata? I think not. The public will dig deeper into their pockets....until.
This is why the government want nothing to do with AA or HEMS because it costs too much. If the NHS took control it would go the same way as the police units (NPAS) and the industry would rapidly decline from its current status due to financial starvation.
Finally, the USA:
A lot has been said about the safety record in the US with regard to EMS.
An enormous amount of froth and not much substance, to be honest.
The bottom line for their abysmal record is quite simply this:
Press - on - itis. Their industry is corporate/profit driven. Money is king and profits make or break each and every EMS outfit.
Pilots crash because they are under enormous pressure to meet operational/business demands. They get airborne in less than satisfactory weather conditions and occasionally in a/c that are not adequately equipped. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It is a hard pill to swallow for a lot of "professionals" out there, but it is the truth. Single Vs dual pilot is a red herring.
Stay tuned..................
If I may comment on your last post?
NVG - One day (not far away) ALL (civvy) night flying will mandate NVD's. First public services will go that way, then corporate/charter and finally GA.
It is inevitable. It is to helicopters what halide lights are to cars. There is no mystery to them anymore as Crab says. They have been around and proven time and time again. The CAA, as ever, are (a) being extra cautious and (b) under staffed in this department.
Night HEMS / /Air Ambulances:
I concur with your observation, too. The demand is perceived not prevailing.
This is where it gets 'interesting'. In the UK, HEMS and Air Ambulance, are seen by the public to be charity driven. By that I mean on face value the engine or driving force is: altruism. However, over the years it has become a front cover for small businesses generating millions of pounds, expensive machines, numerous staff and big salaries. Don't get me wrong - to date it still retains its virtues but the purpose for its existence might (by some) appear 'blurred'. Do you see what I am saying (without saying it!).
The public seem happy for it continue as is - so it does. The country is covered in them, we all benefit and that's great. But make no mistake, night flying in this industry will fuel the engine for a greater number and more expensive operations with more equipment and more staff - but will the benefits increase pro rata? I think not. The public will dig deeper into their pockets....until.
This is why the government want nothing to do with AA or HEMS because it costs too much. If the NHS took control it would go the same way as the police units (NPAS) and the industry would rapidly decline from its current status due to financial starvation.
Finally, the USA:
A lot has been said about the safety record in the US with regard to EMS.
An enormous amount of froth and not much substance, to be honest.
The bottom line for their abysmal record is quite simply this:
Press - on - itis. Their industry is corporate/profit driven. Money is king and profits make or break each and every EMS outfit.
Pilots crash because they are under enormous pressure to meet operational/business demands. They get airborne in less than satisfactory weather conditions and occasionally in a/c that are not adequately equipped. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It is a hard pill to swallow for a lot of "professionals" out there, but it is the truth. Single Vs dual pilot is a red herring.
Stay tuned..................
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 25th May 2013 at 21:13.
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...and relax!
On a lighter note;
School children are being asked to do some blue sky thinking to find a name for Yorkshire Air Ambulance’s new mascot.
I'm plugging for YAA
YAA
GENDER: Feminine
USAGE: Western African, Akan
Means "born on Thursday" in Akan.
Behind the Name: Meaning, Origin and History of the Name Yaa
On a lighter note;
School children are being asked to do some blue sky thinking to find a name for Yorkshire Air Ambulance’s new mascot.
We love our new mascot but it doesn’t have a name. So, we’re asking all our young supporters to come up with some suggestions.
It can be a boy or girl’s name, but needs to be something original and memorable. And, whatever name is chosen, our mascot will be kept very busy over the coming months at shows, fetes and events throughout the region.
It can be a boy or girl’s name, but needs to be something original and memorable. And, whatever name is chosen, our mascot will be kept very busy over the coming months at shows, fetes and events throughout the region.
I'm plugging for YAA
YAA
GENDER: Feminine
USAGE: Western African, Akan
Means "born on Thursday" in Akan.
Behind the Name: Meaning, Origin and History of the Name Yaa
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Crab i think your statement is not correct, wait and see what the different limits are. We cannot low fly at any time so that is not on the table. Dont assume anything!
The approaches might not be flown like the military. I dont know the exact details so i will not assume facts, however the ac does have a large number of floodlights on the belly, lets wait and see eh?
The approaches might not be flown like the military. I dont know the exact details so i will not assume facts, however the ac does have a large number of floodlights on the belly, lets wait and see eh?
Avoid imitations
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First public services will go that way, then corporate/charter and finally GA.