Big brother is watching................

[SilsoeSid]

JT

So lets move on to the second point. What paperwork am I obligated to file before any flight I make ? An inference you made in post 50.

Silsoe, I've read the posts carefully, and I've replied, carefully. Perhaps you should too. :-)

I await your response to the filing of paper work.
Joel

Yes, lets read my post 50 shall we!!

Aaah Yes. You will notice I said;

You don't fill in any paperwork before flying ?!?!

Bit of a difference between your accusation that I'm saying that you had to file paperwork before flying and the actual fact that I questioned that you didn't fill in any paperwork before going flying.

Once again, please give me the decency of reading my posts before commenting on them :roll eyes:


file, fill, fuel, full, fail,

[nigelh]

OK Silsoe admit it your having a laugh arent you I also think its quite fun to wind people up on this site .....but please , its gone on long enough and surely you MUST have SOME work to do I advised Joel to ignore you because having brought up 2 children you realize when someone is arguing just for the sake of it !!!!!!!!!! Joel was in essence correct about filing paperwork ...citing N Ireland was you just being an anorak . Also , having flown for 30 years with a lot of pilots well more experienced than you i have never done a W&B ( unless axtraordinary loads or luggage ), not even on my PPL or CPL or CFI checks . I hardly ever did one in my 350 for normal pax flights as yet again i knew that unless there was something out of the ordinary it would be in limits . I think he has flown 206,s for long enough to know . You are quite at liberty to sit down and do one for every flight if that floats your beurocratic boat I dont consider looking at wx on my iphone as "paperwork " ...i dont draw a line on my map either ....so NO i dont do any paperwork either before a flight other than first of day for check A .
Now be good and go get a life ...!!!!!!!!!!

[JTobias]

Silsoe

I think we're on different conversations here and again you are doing your deflection bit.

Firstly I never said I didn't check the Met - I live on the weather website, and use various apps on my iPhone and iPad multiple times each day to check the weather constantly whether I'm flying or not. It's what I do as an aviation nut !

The same with the Notams, particularly as I use Skydemon on my iPad which has a great Notam section.

In terms of weight and balance, I know that if I carry 2 people in my Jet Ranger or even 3, maybe even 4 (99.99999% of my flights are 3 POB or less) then I'm within limits.

None of that is paperwork !!

I've also just read Nigel's response and he is right. Children 'argue for arguments' sake and rarely stick to the issue, choosing to regularly deflect onto another. it's looking familiar.

Nigel, I apologise, I should have taken your advice and ignored Silsoe Sid because he's not listening or reading.

Joel

[ShyTorque]

Sid, You seem intent on taking this discussion well away from the original point.

However, to answer some of the questions you directed at me:

So how well vetted are a local flying clubs staff or the staff at the location you operate your ac?

Fairly well vetted, I'd say. As I said before, I don't operate from a flying club (and I don't actually see the relevance of that compared to a discussion about hotel landing sites). The staff at our base location are CRB checked in order to get an ID card. We have similar security in place to the location that you operate from (I've visited your building on a number of occasions and also been inside your unit accommodation in the past, so I do know).

Our operation is a very close knit one with a very small number of staff. Having worked from this location for well over a decade, I'm well aware of who is "local" and who is a visitor. Until last week even my actual employer was not aware of the exact location of the other main landing site I use. That site has its own company security staff and access to the main site is controlled by them, company ID cards are in place there too. The HLS has ten foot high security fencing with a lockable gate, the whole site also has CCTV. I'm personally known to the staff.

The aircraft is kept in a secure hangar at base. So, I think our operation has pretty good security, in all. Far better than any hotel system or flying club, for sure and at least on a par with your "local" security, probably better.

For example, our helicopter has never been destroyed in an arson attack.... How's your new(ish) one settling in, Sid?

BTW, they didn't ask for a GAR last time I visited your base, or even ask if I'd flown in from across an international border ).

As far as knowing the requirements for submission of a GAR... after nearly twenty years of military flying (including time based both in NI and in Europe), followed by another similar period of civilian ops, over ten years of that based in UK in the VIP/Corporate industry (and some of it in the same role as yourself), I have become quite well accustomed to the rules (not personal opinion, note - but the legal requirement). From your earlier comments it appeared that you didn't actually know the rules but I'm sure you've since been able to look them up to continue with this debate). I also know that in your type of employment (having been in your type of work myself, albeit some years ago), you wouldn't often see a GAR because you don't usually, if ever, cross international borders or transit the Irish Sea because you mainly operate over one central area.

Might have to change for you soon under NPAS, though, eh?

[JTobias]

Silsoe,

There's a tune that keeps popping into my head. I can't quite make it out, but I remember the words :-

'Oh it's all gone quiet over there'

Joel


Sorry, couldn't resist

[nigelh]

Let us know when youve finished reading the regs ....

[SilsoeSid]

Well, it seems I have been the most consistent along the way, and waiting for my time to mention N.Ireland being part of the UK was worth the wait to see how adamant JT was that he knew the rules. Nigel of course followed along one minute agreeing with me, then with whoever had most on their side. A common trait!

Of course I read up the GAR instructions, I never claim to know everything, that is why we are able to go to official sites and get the information needed, unlike JT's top of his head knowledge and reading things to suit his arguments.

I feel there is a lot of embarrassment over the 'file and fill' mis-read earlier, especially after we were told, "I've read the posts carefully". Quite laughable that one.

Amazing that the term 'paperwork' has not moved into the modern world. Surely in anyones eyes, pre flight planning such as Met, Notams, check etc are paperwork. Just because you use an iPad/Pod/Phone it is still 'Paperwork' in the sense that the word is used.

ShyT, it's a shame that we have agreed on a few threads previously for you now to get fairly hurtful here with your comments. Don't quite understand your gripe. Of course a GAR isn't familiar territory, but at least when I read about it I knew what I was talking about, as opposed to JT's interpretation.


Nigel, you're a star.
"NO! i dont do any paperwork either before a flight other than first of day for check A . "

'I don't do any paperwork....'Other than'...classic


Once we get back to the main points to this thread...What would you do in the run up to the Olympics to interrupt any unwanted activity. Of course the feeling I get from some here is to stop a particular part of our society from flying. However, as that isn't going to happen what would really be wrong with everyone filing a GAR for the next few months?

Don't like big brother watching? (thread title)
Not too bad when big brother prevents your car/house/family being interfered with is it?
ShyT, does your security involve CCTV?
JT, do you ask the hotels to put their CCTV on your ac?
Nigel, earlier you said you were happy with flight following.

Yes it is all about the Olympics;
As Bertrand Russell said;

The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation.

[ShyTorque]

Sid, you're only getting backlash from me over this is because you unfortunately waded in very strongly indeed and upset other contributors by your "I know better than you" attitude.

In my case, you made a patronising jibe at me by insuinuating I was an ignorant PPL hiring from a flying club in order to progress your argument. Later you tried to make out that I didn't know the basic rules of my job. As a professional pilot with almost forty years of aviation experience, I did take strong exception to this and so I gave you some back. If you "deal **it out" on a professional pilots' forum, then be prepared to get some back!

We are now in a situation where some of those holding the keys to our industry don't seem to know the law with regard to aviation as it stands. We are very aware of Op Pegasus; a rep has visited our base (we have a local SB rep). In some cases it appears that non-aviation folk such as hotel staff have been given the wrong impression by their local law enforcers. As I posted earlier, I recently rang a hotel to get management permission to land and was told that I would have to complete some paperwork. I was happy to do this, we routinely do it but in this case a GAR was emailed to me, along with the requirement to complete it well in advance (actually more notice than is needed for an international flight). I was told this was so the local police could "approve" the flight! Total nonsense. I queried this and it was immediately referred back to the police by the hotel. Needless to say, I will still be going to that hotel but with less detail being given.

My argument that giving out too much detail to persons unknown, in an uncontrolled security environment, is actually leaving us open to an aircraft hi-jack and is therefore counter-productive. Unless the police are going to meet every flight, check out the passengers and secure the landing site. We know the answer to that one.

If the law is changed and GAR completion in advance becomes mandatory for all internal flights, so be it, we'll have to do it, but it will cause corporate helicopter pilots like myself a big problem and I'll be the first to object. We know all about the Olympics restrictions as it's highly likely to stop our ops to London for two months, our key "earner". A major London handling agent has recently advised staff that they will be laid off for the duration because GA flights will no longer be accepted. The helicopter industry is under huge pressure as it is, every time we turn and comply someone seems to put another obstacle in our way. As things are at the moment, an extra "security charge" of £1500 has recently been levied on every GA movement to LHR. This is on top of normal landing and handling fees. How many clients are going to pay this?

The only reason corporate helicopters exist at all is to provide clients with the ability to be highly flexible in where they go, at what time of day and who flies with them. The required passenger load does sometimes change at short notice, even at the point of passenger embarkation, in my case.
This is a legal right, whether you like it or not, that's the way it is, that's what we provide to make a living. That right is being eroded, little by little.

We are all aware of the need to be constantly vigilant about security. I would say that I am very much so, perhaps more than your own department has shown itself to be (sorry about mentioning the arson attack but I couldn't resist that one). I'm afraid you haven't helped win any "hearts and minds" here by your sniping and attempts to put down anyone with a different viewpoint to your own.

All I ask is that you see my viewpoint without the petty sniping.

[nigelh]

Well, it seems I have been the most consistent along the way, and waiting for my time to mention N.Ireland being part of the UK was worth the wait to see how adamant JT was that he knew the rules. Nigel of course followed along one minute agreeing with me, then with whoever had most on their side. A common trait!.........Quotes Silsoe.
Right there you have it ....a childs response !! We were talking about local flights in the UK and you have to point out the exception of N Ireland ....clever little boy .
You are now backed into a corner and using any lapse of correct grammar to score points .....so ok the only paperwork i do is the first flight check A ...happy now ?? I can only assume that you are a very sad individual who haunts this site ....you need to get out more ...you need to listen to other peoples views ...you need to understand that some arguments do not involve a right or wrong . You may be isolated in your little job , your job may be unaffected by this but you need to see the point of view from others ...some of whom will lose their jobs and some may lose the business . You are myopic ....open your eyes and see what is happening to others . Think before you wade in otherwise you make a fool of yourself insulting some of the more experienced on this site ...as you have done .
( So have i in the past ....!!) It is not too late to keep some dignity and apologise whilst still keeping your views

[Old Age Pilot]

I once thought of helicopter pilots as cool

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Just because you use an iPad/Pod/Phone it is still 'Paperwork' in the sense that the word is used.

Is anyone else reminded of the Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky episode and the "That depends on what your definition of the word 'is' is" defence?

it's a nugatory system because it totally depends on the honesty of the individual. The people who need catching are obviously anything but honest and would obviously never be caught in this "trap"!

Are you sure about the first sentence? Presumably the police will instantly check the information they were given, and be able to tell there and then if the information is false or unverifiable.

I once thought of helicopter pilots as cool

OAP...totally, some of this thread is downright embarrassing

[ShyTorque]

Are you sure about the first sentence? Presumably the police will instantly check the information they were given, and be able to tell there and then if the information is false or unverifiable.

TOTD,

The police or other government agencies can of course check that any given passport information is correct (provided the person actually has a passport to be checked, again there is no requirement to be in possession of a passport for the type of flights we are discussing here). But there is no physical system in place to confirm who is actually in the aircraft when it lands at a private helicopter landing site. Just as no-one checks who is in a private car or hired taxicab driving between two private addresses (what is the difference, in reality).

Want to hide someone? Then don't put them on the form. Or avoid going anywhere near any sort of known HLS and just land unseen in a remote field behind a wood where a private car is waiting.

I'm certain that if someone with evil intent wanted to use a helicopter for any purpose they wouldn't be so stupid as to fill a form out and submit it in advance to the authorities for prior approval!

[SilsoeSid]

Shy,
It is no way an 'I know better then you attitude'. Nor do I question your professional standing. I am more than aware of the experience here on PPRuNe and therefore have a pause, two, three, before posting on anything written in black and white, i.e. not opinion based. It's called getting your facts right. However, when someone says that 'one' doesn't have to file a GAR for flights within the UK, highlighting how well they know the rules and how right they are, don't question me etc, what is wrong with pointing out that according to the rules in some cases you do. Not that I know better than anyone, just that I read the rules, updated myself and pointed out the flaw in their statement.

Please don't pretend that you didn't know what I meant with the flying club reference. We know each other, and even those that don't can look at your profile, so why do you say I was calling you an ignorant PPL? All I was pointing out was the staff at a hotel are probably as vetted as most staff at a flying club. So, someones flight details are as safe at the club as they possibly could be at a hotel.

I notice you said that you didn't file a GAR when visiting our place. Rightly so. However, I bet they had your details on the handling agents board. The one behind the desk that anyone walking in to the office can see.

As far as your comments on security at a personal level goes, who'd have thought that with manned security posts, fences, armed patrols and regular activity, someone would attack us? Hindsight is a marvellous thing to poke fun at people with. Good job none was injured this time. I notice the security at your old place wasn't too good (when you were there I add) until this particular incident happened. Things are different now, all round.


Anyway, back to the thread itself;
If you see being hijacked the greatest threat, are you in favour of pleasure flights and the like being cancelled during the Olympic period?


p.s. I think you may have upset some private pilots here, who in my opinion are always more than welcome.

[SilsoeSid]

Aah, Nigel.

We were talking about local flights in the UK and you have to point out the exception of N Ireland ....clever little boy .

There was no mention of 'local flights' by anyone. Flights within the UK yes, but where is a 'local flight' mentioned in the whole GAR discussion?
What's a 'local flight', if you operate for example out of Oban, Carlisle, Blackpool, Prestwick, is NI local?

You are now backed into a corner and using any lapse of correct grammar to score points .....so ok the only paperwork i do is the first flight check A ...happy now ??

Grammar? It's the definition of paperwork I asked for :roll eyes:

Happy? With the comment early of "I don't do any....the only paperwork I do is..." in mind ecstatic

You may be isolated in your little job , your job may be unaffected by this but you need to see the point of view from others ...some of whom will lose their jobs and some may lose the business . You are myopic ....open your eyes and see what is happening to others .

Perhaps it is as simple as, I don't see the problem of 'booking in' with a hotel that I am visiting.

[SilsoeSid]

Back to thread?

I am intrigued to know if those that complain about 'Big Brother', have Tracker devices fitted to their vehicles, refuse to go to fuel stations that have forecourt surveillance cameras or even question department stores by asking under what authority are they recording their actions in their shop? Even our local tip has a plate recogniser that flashes your reg on an LED display as you go in. Some here use iWhatevers for flight planning etc. I take it that you have location services switched off and take all actions to prevent being tracked.

The Register

The researchers used three HTC smartphones for the tests: a Magic and a Passion, both running Android, and a Tytn II running Windows Mobile. Among the 21 apps tested were browsers, photo uploaders, newspaper apps, mapping, Twitter, and games like chess, Sudoku and Angry Birds.

The breakdowns are interesting: in the free Angry Birds app, the researchers found, user tracking accounted for 45 percent of power consumption, one-third of which is devoted to GPS tracking. To this the app adds the energy used in uploading user information and downloading ads.

As I said before, if a particular hotel has to keep a record of movements to show the usage of the site, would you mind giving your details then, or was it the hotels mention of the Police asking them to take your details that upsets more?

[ShyTorque]

Please don't pretend that you didn't know what I meant with the flying club reference.

No pretence here, I don't know what you meant, I just took the comment at face value.

As far as the other "Big Brother" things you mentioned, such as cameras at petrol stations etc. I don't have an issue with them because I can see that they do provide a worthwhile deterrent against bilkings and other criminal acts. In any case, at those locations I'm not required to give persons unknown what I consider to be sensitive personal details about myself and my passengers.

You asked me about CCTV at my operating locations. I did specifically mention that point prior to your question.

I don't have a Tracker on my car; I see no financial gain as it's not valuable enough to me and probably of little interest to a criminal. It's insured against theft in any case. If someone steals it they will have to damage it to gain entry and then I probably wouldn't want it back.

I have disabled "location following" on my mobile phone which was designed merely to satisfy some outfit who want to sell me their stuff, or tell others exactly where I am so they can tailor their own adverts. It's annoying how it has recently begun trying to get me to turn it back on. I do have a choice, though and will continue to make it. Haven't Google just been in the news for being warned that what they are trying to do via mobile phones is against European law and rights of the individual?

Regarding earlier comments about flight following, the ANO mentions that in the absence of a written flight plan, a responsible person should be nominated for this purpose. This doesn't have to be hotel staff and I wouldn't personally expect them to understand what this really means or to be prepared to take on this role. Instead I keep in touch with my base by phone where necessary; if I don't get in touch they often ring me to check up how we're doing. Obviously they know more or less where I should be at any one time, so do ATC because I make a point of obtaining a service of some sort or other whenever it's available; it usually is on mainland UK. If there's no radar or other more relevant unit in the vicinity, I use London or Scottish Info who provide a very good service for transit flights. They are trained to take overdue action and will do so if necessary.

Regarding booking in; I've spent much of the day finding ad-hoc landing sites for future flights. They were all given our details, including the insurance, as we always do expect to provide. However, none of them expected passport numbers of the aircraft occupants and if they had asked I would have politely declined to give them. The easiest permission to obtain was the one I thought was potentially the most difficult, on a private estate. A quick couple of phone calls, yes no problem was the reply. The only thing needed was the time of arrival so they could let our driver in to meet us. Some folk on here, or policemen on PP might go slightly faint with worry if I said where it was, so I won't.

[pilotmike]

Embarrassing. Deeply embarrassing.

It was with a sense of dread, yet curious, guilty voyeurism that I felt compelled to read on, hoping that there would be more gems worthy of Basil Fawlty - and it didn't disappoint!

Amazement that the term 'paperwork' has everything to do with PAPER!

"Surely in anyones eyes, ..."???

It is widely accepted that 'surely' almost invariably introduces a weak argument!

Keep the comedy coming - it is almost too much!

[ShyTorque]

Keep the comedy coming - it is almost too much!

I'm just the straight man, but I'll try to keep up ...

....meanwhile, I've got to get back to printing off some more GAR forms.

[JTobias]

Hey Silsoe,

I'm getting a bit naffed off with your arrogance now, and twisting things to suit your pathetic arguments.

1) You basically chastised me for politeley refusing to fill out a GAR form and provide it to a hotel. You asked me on what authority I decided that it was inappropriate.

Question Do I or do I not need to complete a GAR and provide it to a HOTEL ?

You then went off at some ridiculous tangent regarding the filing and completion of paperwork prior to a flight being conducted.

Question In the context of the type of flight I started this thread with, what paperwork do I need to complete and file before I conduct a flight ?

I'm not twisting anything or pretending I know stuff when I don't. You however, are behaving like a prat and arguing for the sake of it.

Now answer the above two questions. Or shall I answer them for you?

The answer to both of the above is that I'm not required to do either. Which makes me right on both counts and you wrong (again!)

Joel

[helicopter-redeye]

I'm all for national security. Twice in many years have the police (or anybody) asked for details about a flight outside of controlled airspace. Both in Scotland strangely. Once on a remote island with only one policeman on it. Appeared within 10 mins of landing and asked politely for details. Information provided, he went away happy and I'm sure never called the CAA/ Scottish Information/ local FISO who knew about the flight/ anybody else, because the answers passed the reasonableness test. The other time was an airport where the locals were able to say 'och whist, he's been coming here for years Jock'. Same result.

Actually it was quite reassuring that people cared enough to check that I was not a rag-head with a chemical bomb on board.

The olympics would be just the sort of situation the bad guys would like to make something of. Let's not give them the chance.

h-r

Incidently, I've always found Preston to be a very dodgy place. Wrong side of the Pennines.