Big brother is watching................
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
why would you necessarily pick on a target in the hotspot of the city. There are plenty of of high profile targets around the Country, which will be relatively unguarded,
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
P.S. Shouldn't you be out here helping to wash the helicopter, or is it big breakfast time? 
Just because you don't get on with the people you work with, there's no need to spread your envious comments here
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I would have thought it better to do something effective, rather than wasting time and effort.
Now, please tell us, what would you be doing?
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I'm going on leave, Sid.
Not sure why you say that. In my time at a unit not far from yours we used to wash the aircraft on Sunday morning. We all brought in food and then cooked up the big Sunday breakfast (which I took my turn to cook and wash up after). These days we buy each other the breakfasts if we're in a position to get one.
Just because you don't get on with the people you work with, there's no need to spread your envious comments here
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Sorry, thought you were jumping on another bandwagon there 
Before you go, can you have a word with the HS and get rid of the leave ban throughout the period
p.s. He who cooks, doesn't wash up !
Before you go, can you have a word with the HS and get rid of the leave ban throughout the period
p.s. He who cooks, doesn't wash up !
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No bandwagon here, we're supposed to be on the same side. At least you're going to be paid this summer over the period of the Olympics. I know quite a few in the aviation industry who are being made to take unpaid leave for two months.
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Hi
Silsoe Sid - I didn't book into the hotel. No requirement too. (Based on permission being granted to me previously to land anytime I like).
The problem with this approach, is that I don't have to give my real details and it's therefore farcical. It's also inconsistent too. I've been to three different locations this weekend and no one else has asked for my personal information so Project Pegasus is self defeating.
Also, only authorised Law enforcement personell are allowed to ask for my credentials so again asking hoteliers to obtain the information is not going to work.
Misterbonkers commented that 2 GA Pilots were accosted at a London Aerodrome recently and accused of breaking the law because no notifications had been filed. That was me also, when I arrived at Blackbushe aerodrome (should i be paranoid ???)
The daft thing is this, I'm in favour of a national identity card but we don't have one and the plans to introduce them have been scrapped. We're shortly about to transfer over to an EASA license, but it doesn't include a photograph of the holder. Thats totally ridiculous - why doesn't it ???
I've also been asked to complete a GAR form for a visit I'm making in July to a hotel. I've politely refused on the basis that the form is completely inappropriate.I'll happily supply sensible details but the problem is that everyone is asking for something different and no-one knows why there asking or what, if anything, they should be asking for.
We must resist overly intrusive procedures from slowly creeping onto our aviating or else we will be required, eventually, to file some form of paperwork prior to each flight.
Joel
Silsoe Sid - I didn't book into the hotel. No requirement too. (Based on permission being granted to me previously to land anytime I like).
The problem with this approach, is that I don't have to give my real details and it's therefore farcical. It's also inconsistent too. I've been to three different locations this weekend and no one else has asked for my personal information so Project Pegasus is self defeating.
Also, only authorised Law enforcement personell are allowed to ask for my credentials so again asking hoteliers to obtain the information is not going to work.
Misterbonkers commented that 2 GA Pilots were accosted at a London Aerodrome recently and accused of breaking the law because no notifications had been filed. That was me also, when I arrived at Blackbushe aerodrome (should i be paranoid ???)
The daft thing is this, I'm in favour of a national identity card but we don't have one and the plans to introduce them have been scrapped. We're shortly about to transfer over to an EASA license, but it doesn't include a photograph of the holder. Thats totally ridiculous - why doesn't it ???
I've also been asked to complete a GAR form for a visit I'm making in July to a hotel. I've politely refused on the basis that the form is completely inappropriate.I'll happily supply sensible details but the problem is that everyone is asking for something different and no-one knows why there asking or what, if anything, they should be asking for.
We must resist overly intrusive procedures from slowly creeping onto our aviating or else we will be required, eventually, to file some form of paperwork prior to each flight.
Joel
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Silo,
There are quite few hot and V delicate places around Preston, One thing though the Bobbies used to go round in twos, its now threes, but I am not sure if the third one is the one going for the Kababs or the Colonel!!
Peter R-B
Too near Preston!
There are quite few hot and V delicate places around Preston, One thing though the Bobbies used to go round in twos, its now threes, but I am not sure if the third one is the one going for the Kababs or the Colonel!!
Peter R-B
Too near Preston!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Blimey, what is it with you lot? It's like listening to Shami Chakrabarti.
I guess you don't wear seat belts, just incase you can't get out of the vehicle after the crash, or you use mobile phones while driving simply because when flying you can talk on the radio, read a map and fly all at the same time and you have decided that the mobile phone regulations are an unreasonable and un-enforceable! You may well be 'not doing anything dodgy'. But how on Earth is anyone talking to you, watching you, serving you tea, to know that?
Maybe that is because I will be at work
Probably vetted as much as the staff at your local flying club where you hire the ac from have been!! 
And under what authority have you can decided that? Obviously you think you are an authority on national security in the run up to the Olympics, so tell us what your plan would be!
You don't fill in any paperwork before flying ?!?!
It's simple folks. The world has changed. The UK has changed. We have the Olympics coming up. Aviation is seen as a threat. People are ****ting their pants over what could happen and we probably haven't even imagined what the terrorists have up their sleeve. Is it really so much of a problem for you to play ball for a while rather than be an unnecessary thorn in the side of the security services?
Yes, someone said earlier 'terrorism wins again'. That will, as we have learnt from the past, always be the case.
Don't ever forget people;
The terrorist has to get it right just the once in a thousand times, the security services have to get it right every single time !
I guess you don't wear seat belts, just incase you can't get out of the vehicle after the crash, or you use mobile phones while driving simply because when flying you can talk on the radio, read a map and fly all at the same time and you have decided that the mobile phone regulations are an unreasonable and un-enforceable! You may well be 'not doing anything dodgy'. But how on Earth is anyone talking to you, watching you, serving you tea, to know that?
At least you're going to be paid this summer over the period of the Olympics.
So I plan to go to a hotel to drop off some passengers. The hotel requires, in advance, my flight details. I send them, as requested. They now have details of my aircraft type, who I am, who my pax are, where I've come from and where I'm going. So they now know the capabilities of the aircraft as it arrives, including its range. They also know what date/time I'm arriving and how long I'll be there. There is no security at the hotel landing site. It's next to the public car park.....
Do you not see an issue here? Is that information kept secure? Have the hotel staff been security vetted?
Do you not see an issue here? Is that information kept secure? Have the hotel staff been security vetted?
I've also been asked to complete a GAR form for a visit I'm making in July to a hotel. I've politely refused on the basis that the form is completely inappropriate.
We must resist overly intrusive procedures from slowly creeping onto our aviating or else we will be required, eventually, to file some form of paperwork prior to each flight.
It's simple folks. The world has changed. The UK has changed. We have the Olympics coming up. Aviation is seen as a threat. People are ****ting their pants over what could happen and we probably haven't even imagined what the terrorists have up their sleeve. Is it really so much of a problem for you to play ball for a while rather than be an unnecessary thorn in the side of the security services?
Yes, someone said earlier 'terrorism wins again'. That will, as we have learnt from the past, always be the case.
Don't ever forget people;
The terrorist has to get it right just the once in a thousand times, the security services have to get it right every single time !
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
And what will you be doing after April 8th, in your self important world of clandestine need to know secrecy?
How about playing ball
You must carry Photo Id, licence and medical at all times: This used to apply only to commercial pilots, who could be ramp checked at any time. The new EASA rule (FCL.045) requires all pilots to carry their current pilot licence, medical and photo-id at all times. At least you dont need to carry your logbook with you. Photo-Id could be the newer UK credit card sized driving licence or passport; other types may be acceptable.
There are plenty of good points coming out of this one and much healthy discussion.
Perhaps I could point out the aviation community itself seems to have far more intelligence on it's activities than Project Pegasus and it's the manner in which PP are going about their activities that is causing concern. There are examples of a distinct lack of intelligence AND examples of poor attitude towards those that are able to contribute. This could potentially alienate large parts of the flying community - the ones that seem to know far more the PP and it's colleagues.
I work with the Police regularly and have seen many things good and bad.
The local bobby who would rather film the Air Ambulance landing on his mobile phone than stop traffic passing an upturned vehicle with a trapped passenger.
The Police vehicle that cannot follow instructions from it's Air Support and whose driver clearly does not their LEFT from their RIGHT.
GA is a community. The Police need interact with it in a modern day fashion.
Perhaps I could point out the aviation community itself seems to have far more intelligence on it's activities than Project Pegasus and it's the manner in which PP are going about their activities that is causing concern. There are examples of a distinct lack of intelligence AND examples of poor attitude towards those that are able to contribute. This could potentially alienate large parts of the flying community - the ones that seem to know far more the PP and it's colleagues.
I work with the Police regularly and have seen many things good and bad.
The local bobby who would rather film the Air Ambulance landing on his mobile phone than stop traffic passing an upturned vehicle with a trapped passenger.
The Police vehicle that cannot follow instructions from it's Air Support and whose driver clearly does not their LEFT from their RIGHT.
GA is a community. The Police need interact with it in a modern day fashion.
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SS,
But you'll get your paid leave later. You'd have something else to say if you were told your services weren't required for two months and you weren't getting paid over that period. How's your savings account?
Cheap jibe, unwarranted and totally inaccurate. I don't hire from a flying club. In fact I never have. I get paid to fly someone else's aircraft. Just like you.
Sid, just look up the rules, will you? A GAR is definitely not required for an internal UK flight. It's not down to personal opinion. As I wrote earlier, I recently questioned the need to do this when it was demanded. It was referred to the Lancashire Police. They have confirmed the member of staff concerned was in error to demand one because the rules weren't understood.
A GAR will be required for flights into the Olympics airspace (Restricted and Prohibited areas). It's not required for all flights elsewhere, either now or during the Olympics. But I'm sure you know that.
Why don't you fill in a GAR form for all your flights that involve an off-base landing? I'll give you a clue - you won't find it in the PAOM parts 1 or II, because in this particular instance it's not a matter of an aircraft being operated under a PAOC being given an exemption.
Maybe that is because I will be at work
Probably vetted as much as the staff at your local flying club where you hire the ac from have been!!
Quote:
I've also been asked to complete a GAR form for a visit I'm making in July to a hotel. I've politely refused on the basis that the form is completely inappropriate.
And under what authority have you can decided that? Obviously you think you are an authority on national security in the run up to the Olympics, so tell us what your plan would be!
I've also been asked to complete a GAR form for a visit I'm making in July to a hotel. I've politely refused on the basis that the form is completely inappropriate.
And under what authority have you can decided that? Obviously you think you are an authority on national security in the run up to the Olympics, so tell us what your plan would be!
A GAR will be required for flights into the Olympics airspace (Restricted and Prohibited areas). It's not required for all flights elsewhere, either now or during the Olympics. But I'm sure you know that.
Why don't you fill in a GAR form for all your flights that involve an off-base landing? I'll give you a clue - you won't find it in the PAOM parts 1 or II, because in this particular instance it's not a matter of an aircraft being operated under a PAOC being given an exemption.
Silsoe. If you look back at some of your comments in the cold light of day you will see that you appear to be losing the plot 
I am sure you are trying to make a valid argument but making more and more posts of ramblings ( 3 in the space of 5 minutes ..!!) doesn't help your cause . maybe their is another police pilot out there who can articulate a defence better ..??
Everybody here is in favour of good security and would embrace any sensible well thought out plan ...I think we all agree on that .
Ps I don't think Joel hires an aircraft either ......!!!
I am sure you are trying to make a valid argument but making more and more posts of ramblings ( 3 in the space of 5 minutes ..!!) doesn't help your cause . maybe their is another police pilot out there who can articulate a defence better ..??Everybody here is in favour of good security and would embrace any sensible well thought out plan ...I think we all agree on that .
Ps I don't think Joel hires an aircraft either ......!!!
As with most police operations/investigations it's all about eliminating lines of inquiry or leaving them on the maybe pile. Once they have had a little look at you and established who you are / what you do / where you go / when you go and you are no potential threat, they rule you out and move on.
When building the bigger intelligence picture, every little scrap of int, no matter how small or insignificant helps. Like it or not, if you are in aviation, you are a piece in that jigsaw.
If the police have uncovered a plot to hijack a heli at a hotel in Lancs and I was a heli user visiting hotels in Lancs, then I for one would want the police to know all the details of my visits. Makes it very easy for them to put 2 & 2 together and phone me up on 'the day' with a "police operation on a xyz hotel today, Sir, I'm afraid you can't land there." Only later when you see the 'police arrest 3 terror suspects at xyz hotel' headlines, does the penny drop and you thank god we have people working so hard in the background!
When building the bigger intelligence picture, every little scrap of int, no matter how small or insignificant helps. Like it or not, if you are in aviation, you are a piece in that jigsaw.
If the police have uncovered a plot to hijack a heli at a hotel in Lancs and I was a heli user visiting hotels in Lancs, then I for one would want the police to know all the details of my visits. Makes it very easy for them to put 2 & 2 together and phone me up on 'the day' with a "police operation on a xyz hotel today, Sir, I'm afraid you can't land there." Only later when you see the 'police arrest 3 terror suspects at xyz hotel' headlines, does the penny drop and you thank god we have people working so hard in the background!
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Everybody here is in favour of good security and would embrace any sensible well thought out plan ...I think we all agree on that .
From my own experience of full time police aviation, the pilot of the day was always looked upon to be the fount of knowledge of all things aviation. A police pilot giving incorrect advice to his police colleagues could cause an incident of a serious nature, especially in the heat of an enhanced security state, as we are now leading up to.
I'll give you one example, albeit from over a decade ago now: Returning from a job in a police helicopter, I was asked by ATC to look out for an aircraft that was squawking 7700, at a certain position. We soon found a small helicopter in cruise flight, in transit and outside controlled airspace. I was then urged by the excited police observers on board to pursue the aircraft and intercept it so we could land alongside, whereupon they would arrest the pilot..... I kid you not!
I told them that was definitely not required and not really a safe idea. Instead I asked them to use the on board camera zoom lens to get the registration so I didn't have to get too close. I then called the next likely ATC unit on his route and advised them of the situation so they could tell the pilot to check his transponder. They did so and all was resolved; it was an inadvertant selection by the other pilot. Had I followed the police "textbook" solution you would have probably read about it in the papers.
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Originally Posted by SilsoeSid
Blimey, what is it with you lot? It's like listening to Shami Chakrabarti.
Originally Posted by SilsoeSid
I guess you don't wear seat belts, just incase you can't get out of the vehicle after the crash,
Originally Posted by SilsoeSid
or you use mobile phones while driving simply because when flying you can talk on the radio, read a map and fly all at the same time and you have decided that the mobile phone regulations are an unreasonable and un-enforceable!
However, Silsoe hun, the examples you are quoting are LAW. Current LAW. However, if something is not LAW, why should anyone follow it? I believe it is my right, as an Anglo/Irish(wo)man, to go and do and say what I want provided it is not against the LAW. I do not see why (especially as I have grown up with terrorism) I need to prove who I am to those who ARE NOT recognised Government officials.
Originally Posted by SilsoeSid
You may well be 'not doing anything dodgy'. But how on Earth is anyone talking to you, watching you, serving you tea, to know that?
Now Silsoe Sid ... I KNOW that I am providing you with heaps of ammo here ... but why not take a step back and really think about what you're writing? It seems to me to be a knee -jerk reaction without thinking about the implications?
In my current employment we have had certain intelligence that terrorist threats during the Olympics will come from outside the Olympic region i.e the North. However, none of the measures that have been written about here would curb any such terrorist activity.
C'mon guys ... we have all lived with terrorism for decades, and none of the measures made recently have made a whole helluva lot of difference. Why not learn from the past rather than simplying imposing rules that may, or may not, cover a Government Official's arse?
Cheers
Whirls
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Silsoe Sid,
I think we've had some sort of run-in before ??? You were wrong then also.
Please tell me on what basis I am obligated to complete a GAR form and provide it to a hotel when my flight originates and end within the United Kingdom and does not cross an international boundary ???
I'll answer it for you - there is no absolutely no basis that requires me to complete it - Olympic Games or otherwise ! (Unless of course, I'm planning on flying within the temporary boundaries defined for the Olympics, which I wasn't at the time, and in this case I would file it with the relevant authority which is NOT a hotel)
You asked me what MY plan would be - I answered it in the same sentence, but for some reason you ignored it. I said I would happily supply sensible information. I do NOT have to complete a GAR.
In terms of being an expert on National Security, I'm definateley not, but I am far more of an expert on it than you are, particularly as my business involves Law Enforcement and regularly deals with National Security.
In terms of paperwork, unless I'm mistaken, I'm not required to complete any paperwork before a flight - and I'm certainly not required to 'file' it with anyone.
Anything else ?
Joel
I think we've had some sort of run-in before ??? You were wrong then also.
Please tell me on what basis I am obligated to complete a GAR form and provide it to a hotel when my flight originates and end within the United Kingdom and does not cross an international boundary ???
I'll answer it for you - there is no absolutely no basis that requires me to complete it - Olympic Games or otherwise ! (Unless of course, I'm planning on flying within the temporary boundaries defined for the Olympics, which I wasn't at the time, and in this case I would file it with the relevant authority which is NOT a hotel)
You asked me what MY plan would be - I answered it in the same sentence, but for some reason you ignored it. I said I would happily supply sensible information. I do NOT have to complete a GAR.
In terms of being an expert on National Security, I'm definateley not, but I am far more of an expert on it than you are, particularly as my business involves Law Enforcement and regularly deals with National Security.
In terms of paperwork, unless I'm mistaken, I'm not required to complete any paperwork before a flight - and I'm certainly not required to 'file' it with anyone.
Anything else ?
Joel
Last edited by JTobias; 18th Mar 2012 at 23:33.
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Yes, let's all go on leave. Everbody out!
P.S. But that's what they want....
P.S. But that's what they want....