Safety clothing while training?
Hovering AND talking
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Question for instructors (past & present)
The consensus of opinion here is that safety apparel is recommended whether it be gloves, footwear, suits, helmets etc.
Why then don't instructors wear the same gear and also encourage their students to get appropriately kitted out? If this happened, instructors can pass on information about what to look out for, any pitfalls, how to get a helmet to fit correctly etc. Then, if this became standard, no-one would feel a berk!
Given the "overall" (pun intended) cost of obtaining a PPL(H) and, of course subsequent licences and ratings, the cost of the kit is only a small proportion.
Cheers
Whirls
Why then don't instructors wear the same gear and also encourage their students to get appropriately kitted out? If this happened, instructors can pass on information about what to look out for, any pitfalls, how to get a helmet to fit correctly etc. Then, if this became standard, no-one would feel a berk!
Given the "overall" (pun intended) cost of obtaining a PPL(H) and, of course subsequent licences and ratings, the cost of the kit is only a small proportion.
Cheers
Whirls
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an instructors view
Here's my thoughts for what its worth
I guess it all comes down to personal preference. Also most schools have some form of corporate wear/uniform. Having met a guy in Canada some years ago who survived a post crash fire I have given it much thought. I like wearing gloves, some dont, leather boots or shoes seems fairly standard, I certainly recommend them rather than trainers.
The shirts I am provided with are not 100% cotton ? Though I do go for 100% cotton trousers, and tee shirt/underwear. Its got to help surely ! may well invest in a flameproof type jacket and or trousers, (be nice to find somewhere fairly local so you can actually see/try on the stuff, also what is the nomex gear like after a few too many washes, can you get the fire poofing re applied???) to wear a flight suit at work would not be part of the uniform??
Would be happy to wear a helmet I personally have no issues at all with them, the looking like a pill@ck argument doesnt wash, particularly if more people start using them. Though you would constantly get the "where's mine?" question from the guy or girl next to you, not sure what the boss would say when I am doing trial lessons in it though, may put the fear of god in some of the more nervous passengers.
I guess it all comes down to how the student percieves "the danger" Some people wil happily fly in shorts and flip flops
!!!
I guess it all comes down to personal preference. Also most schools have some form of corporate wear/uniform. Having met a guy in Canada some years ago who survived a post crash fire I have given it much thought. I like wearing gloves, some dont, leather boots or shoes seems fairly standard, I certainly recommend them rather than trainers.
The shirts I am provided with are not 100% cotton ? Though I do go for 100% cotton trousers, and tee shirt/underwear. Its got to help surely ! may well invest in a flameproof type jacket and or trousers, (be nice to find somewhere fairly local so you can actually see/try on the stuff, also what is the nomex gear like after a few too many washes, can you get the fire poofing re applied???) to wear a flight suit at work would not be part of the uniform??
Would be happy to wear a helmet I personally have no issues at all with them, the looking like a pill@ck argument doesnt wash, particularly if more people start using them. Though you would constantly get the "where's mine?" question from the guy or girl next to you, not sure what the boss would say when I am doing trial lessons in it though, may put the fear of god in some of the more nervous passengers.
I guess it all comes down to how the student percieves "the danger" Some people wil happily fly in shorts and flip flops
!!!
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Tony
1 - 'fire proofing' is inherent to the fabric and not a coating that is aplied to it so no amount of washing will wear it off.
2 - Just checking, you do realise that there is no such thing as fire proof when we are talking about clothing? The best we can hope for is flame retardent but even this will burn once it gets hot enough.
3 - The level of protection Nomex or cotton clothing will offer in anything other than the smallest of fires is negligible. Even in Nomex or cotton the heat generated by a fire will severely burn you.
I strongly support the wearing of helmets as, in the event of any impact, they may well save your life and I absolutely agree that looking like a div is neither here nor there.
Ultimately I would rather fly in shorts, t-shirt and a helmet than a Nomex flying suit with no helmet.
Like you said, danger is very much down to the perception of the individual so as long as the individual is comfortable and able to concentrate on their flying...
1 - 'fire proofing' is inherent to the fabric and not a coating that is aplied to it so no amount of washing will wear it off.
2 - Just checking, you do realise that there is no such thing as fire proof when we are talking about clothing? The best we can hope for is flame retardent but even this will burn once it gets hot enough.
3 - The level of protection Nomex or cotton clothing will offer in anything other than the smallest of fires is negligible. Even in Nomex or cotton the heat generated by a fire will severely burn you.
I strongly support the wearing of helmets as, in the event of any impact, they may well save your life and I absolutely agree that looking like a div is neither here nor there.
Ultimately I would rather fly in shorts, t-shirt and a helmet than a Nomex flying suit with no helmet.
Like you said, danger is very much down to the perception of the individual so as long as the individual is comfortable and able to concentrate on their flying...
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O27PMR- Thanks, I thought I'd heard of some Fire retardant clothing that didnt stand up to washing too well but I could be wrong. Fully appreciate its not "Fire Proof" I just like something that is not going to melt to my skin, which would make matters worse, and may well give you a few extra seconds with flames licking round your feet !!!
save your skin for under £10
O27PMR- Thanks, I thought I'd heard of some Fire retardant clothing that didnt stand up to washing too well but I could be wrong. Fully appreciate its not "Fire Proof"
Proban is an industrial process that impregnates fabric with a fairly stable solution that makes the fabric fire retardant. However the polymer can be removed by oxidising agents found in some washing powders. Proban impregnated clothing is popular in industrial applications where risk is low (racing marshals usually wear proban)
You can make your own solution to impregnate fabrics using the chemical Borax.
From the National Fire Protection Association " 9 oz Borax Powder; 4 oz Boric Acid; 1 gallon of water . Mix thoroughly and spray on or dip. Solution should drip off material."
300gms of Borax £1.25 from herehttp://www.inest.co.uk/products/Fire_Retardant_Spray_For_Fabric.asp
or buy it ready prepared from here....
http://www.lawsonscleaning.co.uk/pro...o.php?pid=1900
In my view an ideal garmet is one that is moisture resistant so if the fabric is splased with fuel it is not absorbed.
As far as I can tell the new Massif water proof jacket is one of the few that fits the bill.
But not much good for hot climates!
The triage rule of thumb for 1st responders goes like this;
100 less your age = max percentage of your body with 3rd degree burns
So a 50 year old is likely to perish if more than 50% of their body is burnt.
A 25 year old can take 75% burns and still survive. So protecting at least half your body ain't a bad idea.
A roll of cling film is a cheap and excellent 1st aid treatment to protect serious burns from infection. Throw a roll in your flight bag. If you survive shock or blocked airway at the crash site it is usually infection that kills weeks after the event.
So initial problem in treatment is to find clean water/liquid to cool the burn, the experts say it is better to cool the burn with a fire hose than delay waiting for sterile water, then rinse the water with saline solution asap.
Thinking of the smaller airports and fields, crash trucks could be equipped with cling film and a few gallons of sterile water for under £10.
Mickjoebill
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MJB,
Crash truck? Never heard of or seen such a thing. Good points though for any workplace where a fire extinguisher is required, just keep the cling wrap in it's box or it'll get filthy in a hangar.
Funnily enough I recently had a conversation with a CFI recently about this kind of thing and he quite liked the idea of protective clothing but was very shy about wearing a helmet with students.
I made the point that students tend to adopt the habits of their instructors, both good and bad. A student that starts training and progressively invests in appropriate safety equipment is more likely to have a preservative frame of mind than somebody who flits about in a jockstrap and stilletos.
I can see for an introductory flight it would be confronting for your instructor to wear a helmet, but the early lessons before hovering can be managed to be relatively low risk, barring mishandling at altitude and a helmet isn't going to help if you're mast bumping an R22.....
There was a fatal ground accident in Australia some time ago where the instructor left the aircraft and removed his helmet when outside the disk. He then returned to the aircraft while it was shutting down and was struck by a sailing blade at relatively low rpm. The injury was not immediately fatal, but the instructor never regained consciousness before succumbing. I believe the instructor's family posted on this forum at the time but haven't found the thread yet.
Crash truck? Never heard of or seen such a thing. Good points though for any workplace where a fire extinguisher is required, just keep the cling wrap in it's box or it'll get filthy in a hangar.
Funnily enough I recently had a conversation with a CFI recently about this kind of thing and he quite liked the idea of protective clothing but was very shy about wearing a helmet with students.
I made the point that students tend to adopt the habits of their instructors, both good and bad. A student that starts training and progressively invests in appropriate safety equipment is more likely to have a preservative frame of mind than somebody who flits about in a jockstrap and stilletos.
I can see for an introductory flight it would be confronting for your instructor to wear a helmet, but the early lessons before hovering can be managed to be relatively low risk, barring mishandling at altitude and a helmet isn't going to help if you're mast bumping an R22.....
There was a fatal ground accident in Australia some time ago where the instructor left the aircraft and removed his helmet when outside the disk. He then returned to the aircraft while it was shutting down and was struck by a sailing blade at relatively low rpm. The injury was not immediately fatal, but the instructor never regained consciousness before succumbing. I believe the instructor's family posted on this forum at the time but haven't found the thread yet.
Crash truck? Never heard of or seen such a thing.
"crash truck"
n.
A truck specially designed and equipped to rescue victims of an air crash. Also called crash wagon.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved
Mickjoebill
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Tony - Sorry if you thought I was trying to teach you to suck eggs but I just wanted to make sure you knew the difference...(I have met too many people who believe a layer of nomex will make them 'fireproof')
MJB - Thanks for the info about chemical treatments, I've not come across this before and I have no idea how effective it is. I would have thought that it would still need to be applied to a natural fibre which then begs the question - is it worth it? I think that if I really wanted my clothing to be flame retardent then I would buy something designed to be so.
Excellent advice about first aid treatment of burns too... Clingfilm is one of the best ways of covering a burn and keeping it clean. Even if the roll is a bit grotty it should always be clean on the inside. Always make sure that the burn is thoroughly cooled though, with water preferably but if no clean water is available any cold harmless liquid is better than no cooling at all, before applying the clingfilm dressing. Don't wrap it too tight either
PR
MJB - Thanks for the info about chemical treatments, I've not come across this before and I have no idea how effective it is. I would have thought that it would still need to be applied to a natural fibre which then begs the question - is it worth it? I think that if I really wanted my clothing to be flame retardent then I would buy something designed to be so.
Excellent advice about first aid treatment of burns too... Clingfilm is one of the best ways of covering a burn and keeping it clean. Even if the roll is a bit grotty it should always be clean on the inside. Always make sure that the burn is thoroughly cooled though, with water preferably but if no clean water is available any cold harmless liquid is better than no cooling at all, before applying the clingfilm dressing. Don't wrap it too tight either
PR
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There are some very good and indeed, interesting snippets of info in this thread. I wonder - in the event of an accident / incident and the crew decided to make an insurance claim against their policy [or other] would the insurance bean counters raise the question "were you wearing approved protective equipment". Now I know that provided we follow CAA policies etc that in theory this circumstance should not happen. However, in other industries, failure to observe H&S etc does result in loss of claim payment or a proportion thereof. I guess tis only a matter of time before the insurance wallahs figure another way to avoid paying out the loot. Just a thought. I wonder if there is anyone out there who has been in such a predicament/ or similar.
Best Wishes
Best Wishes
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Insurance avoidance
In Oz the workplace insurer is called workcover and covers the person, not the property for medical and rehab costs incured in an accident/incident.
In line with A.A's question on insurance, now that Robinson has the Safety notice about wearing safety clothing (incl helmets), and the general FAA/CAA/CASA rule that aircraft are to be operated in accord with flight manuals, it's not a long step for an insurer (workcover) to argue that safety gear must be worn. The consequence of not doing so? The insurer saying that their liability has been mitigated by the persons own actions and risk taking behaviour...
I fly an R22 & B206 in 40 deg (C) heat doing scenics and photo work. I wear nomex gloves every flight. I used to wear dark blue nomex pants in my last company, but this new company wears charcoal coloured pants, and I haven't had a new set of pants made up in the new colour.
I'm not allowed to wear a helmet for scenics/joy flights. I would have to buy my own helmet for other airwork.
In line with A.A's question on insurance, now that Robinson has the Safety notice about wearing safety clothing (incl helmets), and the general FAA/CAA/CASA rule that aircraft are to be operated in accord with flight manuals, it's not a long step for an insurer (workcover) to argue that safety gear must be worn. The consequence of not doing so? The insurer saying that their liability has been mitigated by the persons own actions and risk taking behaviour...
I fly an R22 & B206 in 40 deg (C) heat doing scenics and photo work. I wear nomex gloves every flight. I used to wear dark blue nomex pants in my last company, but this new company wears charcoal coloured pants, and I haven't had a new set of pants made up in the new colour.
I'm not allowed to wear a helmet for scenics/joy flights. I would have to buy my own helmet for other airwork.
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Robinson Safety Notice 40(?)
I don't have a copy to hand, but I believe that this notice (and the other notices) are in the "non-approved" section of the manual/POH, which makes it an interesting inclusion, but not an enforceable part of the manual/POH, like MGW. Otherwise we'd never be able to fly it out of balance or do photo flights with less than 500 hours.
Still makes for a very good idea though.
I don't have a copy to hand, but I believe that this notice (and the other notices) are in the "non-approved" section of the manual/POH, which makes it an interesting inclusion, but not an enforceable part of the manual/POH, like MGW. Otherwise we'd never be able to fly it out of balance or do photo flights with less than 500 hours.
Still makes for a very good idea though.
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Helmets
"I'm not allowed to wear helmets for scenics/joy flights"..
Doesn't that raise an interesting liability issue for the company then, that they are preventing you from wearing safety equipment?
Have you got it in writing, say in your ops manual or employment contract, that you are not allowed to wear helmets for certain flights?
Doesn't that raise an interesting liability issue for the company then, that they are preventing you from wearing safety equipment?
Have you got it in writing, say in your ops manual or employment contract, that you are not allowed to wear helmets for certain flights?
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safety
hi guys, after 21 years in the usaf helmits are good, for ppl or cpl, get one and be safe,
in a crash it would give you 70% more chance,
what can i say, every bit helps, lol
in a crash it would give you 70% more chance,
what can i say, every bit helps, lol
I'm pretty sure if you turned up in a clown outfit, knowing your instructor, he would be laid back enough to not really care, as long as the big pants didn't catch on the cyclic or collective, and you did as you were told! 
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somewhere back, the original poster mentioned his need to protect his hearing..
I don't wear a helmet, but found the constant noise on the ramp was giving me some 'ringing'.
I bought musicians earplugs from entymotics, they're molded to my ear, are clear and can stay in for a conversation, as they block out only the harmful frequencies..
$100 and paid for themselves 100 times already never mind the extension to my medical...hopefully.
I don't wear a helmet, but found the constant noise on the ramp was giving me some 'ringing'.
I bought musicians earplugs from entymotics, they're molded to my ear, are clear and can stay in for a conversation, as they block out only the harmful frequencies..
$100 and paid for themselves 100 times already never mind the extension to my medical...hopefully.
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Bluestack,
Is there any chance you could tell me who sell the earplugs, being a Sound Engineer and working on the Formula One circuit I could do with a pair of these even if just for my job, i've not found a pair that cut out noise yet you can still hear conversations without taking one ear out.
Many thanks.
Is there any chance you could tell me who sell the earplugs, being a Sound Engineer and working on the Formula One circuit I could do with a pair of these even if just for my job, i've not found a pair that cut out noise yet you can still hear conversations without taking one ear out.
Many thanks.
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Does anyone know anything about Mart Aviation.........tried to contact them a few times but there's never been an answer?
Are they a big company or a one man band?
They've got some decent stuff, just wish I could contact them!
Are they a big company or a one man band?
They've got some decent stuff, just wish I could contact them!