Safety clothing while training?
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The military, HEMS etc. wear all the gear presumably because it increases the chances of survival in an accident. The ground is just as hard and fire just as hot in your Robbie. I always wear a helmet and usually nomex and I dont care what people think. Its not like no one ever died in a light helicopter.
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Easy one malc. Tell them during the safety briefing that in the event of a problem it's in the pax's best interest that the pilot is not incapacitated. They happily accept that.
Chief Bottle Washer
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Gaseous, seen that one in action 
, but the pilot mentioned a birdstrike... the poor pax was privileged sit up front, he changed his mind and sat as far back as was possible 
(Mil Mi-2RM)
, but the pilot mentioned a birdstrike... the poor pax was privileged sit up front, he changed his mind and sat as far back as was possible (Mil Mi-2RM)
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pilot mentioned a birdstrike
If the pax doesnt like the risk and wants to get out I dont see a problem with that. Its never happened to me.
They usually regret it at the end!!!
Last edited by Gaseous; 15th Mar 2008 at 23:44.
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Lt Fubar, apologies if my reply seemed like an attack, certainly not the intention.
I don't know what correlation you can make to the relatively low ratio of fatal accidents in turbine commercial operations compared to piston training and commercial operations and the use or lack of safety gear. The data avalible doesn't allow for those kinds of interpretations to be made, but it would be interesting to compare the statistic on minor/major injuries on reported accidents that would have been fatalities if the crew had not been wearing gear...
Anyone aware of any recent accidents where part of the crew/passengers were killed or severely injured while the passengers/crew wearing protective gear were relatively unhurt?
I don't know what correlation you can make to the relatively low ratio of fatal accidents in turbine commercial operations compared to piston training and commercial operations and the use or lack of safety gear. The data avalible doesn't allow for those kinds of interpretations to be made, but it would be interesting to compare the statistic on minor/major injuries on reported accidents that would have been fatalities if the crew had not been wearing gear...
Anyone aware of any recent accidents where part of the crew/passengers were killed or severely injured while the passengers/crew wearing protective gear were relatively unhurt?
Hovering AND talking
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I wonder how our friends, passengers think if we had all the protection gear on
I don't know of any corporate pilots (S76s, A109s, EC135s etc) who wear all the protective clobber; they wear nice white shirts, smart, pressed trousers and jackets with, presumably a stylish corporate tie. And, of course, the obligatory 5 gold bars! I have been led to believe that the reason behind this that passengers want their pilots to look like pilots. After all, airline pilots don't wear Nomex suits and helmets.
It's all down to personal preference - I wear gloves but that's a personal preference (having hot little hands - can't make pastry) but other than that, I just wear natural fibres. If I was you Kneivel, I'd see how it goes before splashing out on equipment. I know ('cos I'm a girl and I love shopping) how tempting it is to get all kitted up but often you will find that there are non-aviation items that will do the job, or other things that are more important.
Take a few more lessons and see what your instructor says.
Cheers
Whirls
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Since I had some could-be-serious accidents, mostly connected with sailing, and "connected activities", I'm all for protective gear (heck, I won't wear a 100% Nylon jacket anymore, and I'm carrying folding knife wherever I go 
).
If the operator want its pilots to look like airline pilots, fine, but those shirts and trousers should be made of fire-retardant material. But the one 100% Cotton + magic powder are not really trustworthy, and the one made of Nomex... well the white are nowhere to be found (they're mostly navy, tan or khaki).
About the helmet... well there are cases of birdstrikes with fatalities due to not wearing head protection. There are also cases when birdstrike knocked out the pilot, even though he was wearing a helmet... but had his visor up (if I remember correctly it was an instructor in TH-67 during flight training), report stated that if he had his visor down nothing would happen... and having some serious pounds lying unconsciously on the cyclic is not really healthy scenario
).If the operator want its pilots to look like airline pilots, fine, but those shirts and trousers should be made of fire-retardant material. But the one 100% Cotton + magic powder are not really trustworthy, and the one made of Nomex... well the white are nowhere to be found (they're mostly navy, tan or khaki).
About the helmet... well there are cases of birdstrikes with fatalities due to not wearing head protection. There are also cases when birdstrike knocked out the pilot, even though he was wearing a helmet... but had his visor up (if I remember correctly it was an instructor in TH-67 during flight training), report stated that if he had his visor down nothing would happen... and having some serious pounds lying unconsciously on the cyclic is not really healthy scenario
Hovering AND talking
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But this isn't about what an operator wants their professional pilots to wear but what a student with a few hours should wear.
This is about assessed risk; a pilot, flying a solo mission, say HEMS, may feel differently to the pilot who is piloting Lord & Lady B to Cheltenham for the Gold Cup. Similarly, students are not going to be put in risky cirmcumstances but a) his or her instructor or b) the nature of the flying.
I had a bird strike on my second solo circuit; the nature of the flying meant that the danger was very much less than if it had been a commercial, operational flight.
Cheers
Whirls
This is about assessed risk; a pilot, flying a solo mission, say HEMS, may feel differently to the pilot who is piloting Lord & Lady B to Cheltenham for the Gold Cup. Similarly, students are not going to be put in risky cirmcumstances but a) his or her instructor or b) the nature of the flying.
I had a bird strike on my second solo circuit; the nature of the flying meant that the danger was very much less than if it had been a commercial, operational flight.
Cheers
Whirls
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I had a bird strike on my second solo circuit; the nature of the flying meant that the danger was very much less than if it had been a commercial, operational flight.
I have witnessed at first hand the results of a bird in the cockpit. A helmet and visor is essential in such a circumstance to retain vision for the future. And no, bird strikes do not just take place at low level.
Best Wishes
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My philosophy is that you should use whatever protective equipment you like to keep you as well protected as you feel comfortable with. You never know if the thing is going to catch fire or something will try and bang your head. It may all happen during training you know.
I always fly with my helmet on and wearing a flight suit. Up here it keeps me warm, I don't think it would be comfy in warmer places but fire is very warm everywhere.
You can think about why the heck we (in Iceland) are supposed to carry lifevests even though we are not flying over water at all? If that is a safety requirement, why isn't a personal protective gear also required?
It is up to you and only you what you like to wear until you meet the bosses that want you to look like a pilot ad.
I have gotten the question about why I am wearing a fire retardant suit and a helmet but not the passengers. First It was a little embarrassing but when the passengers got the explanation about that we wouldn't want to have our pilot incapacitated in case of some emergency, they accepted it with no further questions or comments.
On the other hand, why are flight instructors shy of wearing the gold bars?
I always fly with my helmet on and wearing a flight suit. Up here it keeps me warm, I don't think it would be comfy in warmer places but fire is very warm everywhere.
You can think about why the heck we (in Iceland) are supposed to carry lifevests even though we are not flying over water at all? If that is a safety requirement, why isn't a personal protective gear also required?
It is up to you and only you what you like to wear until you meet the bosses that want you to look like a pilot ad.
I have gotten the question about why I am wearing a fire retardant suit and a helmet but not the passengers. First It was a little embarrassing but when the passengers got the explanation about that we wouldn't want to have our pilot incapacitated in case of some emergency, they accepted it with no further questions or comments.
On the other hand, why are flight instructors shy of wearing the gold bars?
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I think the point I was trying to make is that the idea that instruction and the student pilot phase is less risky than any other point in your career is a myth. When do you do the most autorotations, when do you do the most slope landings, when do you do lots of manuvers with lots of chances for things to go wrong... in the student instruction phase. I think I'm in a lot more danger as a student/instructor than as a tour pilot.
Certainly the US accident statistics put a lie to the idea that instruction is less dangerous or has less accidents than pretty much all other commercial sectors.
Bird strikes happen to students and students with instructors, I've seen the results and they are not pretty.
Certainly the US accident statistics put a lie to the idea that instruction is less dangerous or has less accidents than pretty much all other commercial sectors.
Bird strikes happen to students and students with instructors, I've seen the results and they are not pretty.
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Just to add my belated 2c worth - In my nearly 1000 hours of PPL flying and nearly 5 years as a flight physician on a rescue helicopter I flew about an hour without a helmet. The rest of the time I had a bone dome including all my training (and even used it when I did the recent test piloting on my home built fixed wing)
While life or death is a significant demarcation there is a further possible result and that is closed brain damage from blunt force head injury. That can be far more debilitating than being dead.
I don't have any figures but I suspect since many prangs are non-fatal that a head injury is probably more of a risk than death.
It doesn't take much rattling around in a small cockpit to smack your noggin on some structural surface and end up alive but disabled, unable to function or unable to carry on in the job that you now do.
Flight suits - Wore them on the job but very hot (in North Queensland in Australia). Gloves same. In the R22 I admit I didn't, mainly because of the discomfort of the heat. Had one in the hangar but only wore it a few times. Probably should have but got lucky.
While life or death is a significant demarcation there is a further possible result and that is closed brain damage from blunt force head injury. That can be far more debilitating than being dead.
I don't have any figures but I suspect since many prangs are non-fatal that a head injury is probably more of a risk than death.
It doesn't take much rattling around in a small cockpit to smack your noggin on some structural surface and end up alive but disabled, unable to function or unable to carry on in the job that you now do.
Flight suits - Wore them on the job but very hot (in North Queensland in Australia). Gloves same. In the R22 I admit I didn't, mainly because of the discomfort of the heat. Had one in the hangar but only wore it a few times. Probably should have but got lucky.
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From reading this and similar threads on PPRuNe, it seems to me that almost everyone agrees that safety gear should really be worn. The only comments against it are based on appearance and being laughed at. In reality, I really doubt many pilots want to wear it to look good etc, they want to wear it to try save themselves from injury or death. We don't laugh at motorbikers for wearing their safety gear - it's seen as normal, and none of the bikers I know would consider riding out without it.
Do we all have to be involved in accidents for this to become normal?
I'd suggest the risks for all pilots are probably the same - for students, risks come from inexperience, for frequent flyers (commercial or otherwise), from the higher flying time.
Robinson Safety Notice SN-40 (Jul 2006):
There have been a number of cases where helicopter or light plane occupants have survived an accident only to be severely burned by fire following the accident. To reduce the risk of injury in a postcrash fire, it is strongly recommended that a fire-retardant Nomex flight suit, gloves, and hood or helmet be worn by all occupants.
There have been a number of cases where helicopter or light plane occupants have survived an accident only to be severely burned by fire following the accident. To reduce the risk of injury in a postcrash fire, it is strongly recommended that a fire-retardant Nomex flight suit, gloves, and hood or helmet be worn by all occupants.
I'd suggest the risks for all pilots are probably the same - for students, risks come from inexperience, for frequent flyers (commercial or otherwise), from the higher flying time.
Having played the wienie roast scene as the weinie....
Gloves...leather or nomex or combination.....must have...must wear.
Nomex flight suit....nice to have....should be worn.....but at a minimum...natural fibers unstarched material. NOTHING NYLON, POLYESTER....and ladies....no tights, panty hose, or similar garments.
Boots....all leather uppers and at least above the ankle.
Helmets....wear them all the time.
Despite wearing gloves, I was in the fire long enough (in flight mind you)...for them to burn off and provide me the distinct pleasure (Not!) of watching the skin on the top of both hands bubble up like a balloon before we were able to land. Imagine if I had not been wearing gloves at all.
The Nomex flight suit I wore worked as published....anywhere it was double or triple thickness due to pockets and folds.....no damage....where it pulled tight in a single thickness.....serious burns occurred. They may be baggy but there is a reason for that being "good" although not very fashionable.
The real key is avoiding the use of man made fabrics (less Nomex or other fire resistant fabrics) that will melt and adhere to yer hide. Wool and Cotton work fine.
Also...remember that applies to yer knickets, tights, undies, and support garments too.....fore if you get into a real fire....they will burn too.
While in the Camp Zama Army Hospital Burn Ward in 1970....I saw perfect examples of just why the choice of garmets and or equipment was so important. The nylon web seats in Hueys and LOH's and the Survival Vests made of the same material....melted and adhered to the victim's skin. Nomex burned but charred.....issue Jungle Fatiques made of all cotton charred and fell off....the mixed cotton and polyester uniforms caused bad burns.
Nomex is not fireproof.....only resistant and chars rather than melts and is only for flash or short term fires. If you get into a real fire for any length of time Nomex will only protect you so far before serious burns occurr.
Gloves...leather or nomex or combination.....must have...must wear.
Nomex flight suit....nice to have....should be worn.....but at a minimum...natural fibers unstarched material. NOTHING NYLON, POLYESTER....and ladies....no tights, panty hose, or similar garments.
Boots....all leather uppers and at least above the ankle.
Helmets....wear them all the time.
Despite wearing gloves, I was in the fire long enough (in flight mind you)...for them to burn off and provide me the distinct pleasure (Not!) of watching the skin on the top of both hands bubble up like a balloon before we were able to land. Imagine if I had not been wearing gloves at all.
The Nomex flight suit I wore worked as published....anywhere it was double or triple thickness due to pockets and folds.....no damage....where it pulled tight in a single thickness.....serious burns occurred. They may be baggy but there is a reason for that being "good" although not very fashionable.
The real key is avoiding the use of man made fabrics (less Nomex or other fire resistant fabrics) that will melt and adhere to yer hide. Wool and Cotton work fine.
Also...remember that applies to yer knickets, tights, undies, and support garments too.....fore if you get into a real fire....they will burn too.
While in the Camp Zama Army Hospital Burn Ward in 1970....I saw perfect examples of just why the choice of garmets and or equipment was so important. The nylon web seats in Hueys and LOH's and the Survival Vests made of the same material....melted and adhered to the victim's skin. Nomex burned but charred.....issue Jungle Fatiques made of all cotton charred and fell off....the mixed cotton and polyester uniforms caused bad burns.
Nomex is not fireproof.....only resistant and chars rather than melts and is only for flash or short term fires. If you get into a real fire for any length of time Nomex will only protect you so far before serious burns occurr.
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SASless: Thank you, born of personal experience I think that that post just about states the case for wearing the right gear. I have for all of my career and will continue to do so. So far I have been pretty fortunate but on the one occasion that I did not wear my helmet when I should have - I ended up with 8 stitches in my scalp. That was the first and last time I made that mistake.
If anyone thinks that their flying rate does not warrant precautions then consider the number of accidents involving helicopters this year alone. I suspect the majority were not 'commercial' but involved PPL's. But its the same old story, "It won't happen to me, I don't do enough to worry about it".
Best Wishes
If anyone thinks that their flying rate does not warrant precautions then consider the number of accidents involving helicopters this year alone. I suspect the majority were not 'commercial' but involved PPL's. But its the same old story, "It won't happen to me, I don't do enough to worry about it".
Best Wishes
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I fly the 22 and the 44.. always wear a nomex flight suit and gloves even though I fly in 40 degree heat. I'm sure many think I look like a knobber, but its funny how the more you fly and the better you like your life the more comfortable you become with the odd strange look.
For me its all about managing risk. Both A/C have 100LL sitting directly above a hot engine and my chances of getting burned in a survivable "hard" landing are thus greatly increased over the same level of accident in a Cessna 182 where once the fuel is cut the tanks are behind the engine.
The turning point for me was when I saw that retired USAF Majors slide show (can't remember his name) on aviation burns victims due to innapropriate clothing.
Bottom line is you look a lot less stupid in a flight suit and gloves than you do with 60% burns and claws for hands...
For me its all about managing risk. Both A/C have 100LL sitting directly above a hot engine and my chances of getting burned in a survivable "hard" landing are thus greatly increased over the same level of accident in a Cessna 182 where once the fuel is cut the tanks are behind the engine.
The turning point for me was when I saw that retired USAF Majors slide show (can't remember his name) on aviation burns victims due to innapropriate clothing.
Bottom line is you look a lot less stupid in a flight suit and gloves than you do with 60% burns and claws for hands...