Alouette Helicopters Declared Illegal Immigrants By The Faa
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Alouette Helicopters Declared Illegal Immigrants By The Faa
From Avweb today
ALOUETTE HELICOPTERS DECLARED ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS BY THE FAA
When Joe Altizer's employer (Marpat Aviation of Logan, West Virginia) bought three French-built Alouette helicopters, they'd all been flying previously in the U.S. All three came certified in the standard category and with current airworthiness certificates. A couple of weeks ago, FAA inspectors, accompanied by state troopers, visited Altizer's hangar and grounded the helicopters, resulting in the layoff of two pilots and a very uncertain future for the company.
The FAA says the absence of a piece of paperwork called a Certificate of Airworthiness for Export, which should have been with the aircraft when they were originally certified in the U.S., means they aren't eligible for that certification, and inspectors are tracking down all the Alouettes in the U.S. to possibly ground them as well. What's frustrating Altizer and other Alouette operators is the FAA doesn't seem to have a solution for a bureaucratic error of their own making and it's the current aircraft owners who are paying the price. We've contacted the FAA and expect a response from them shortly.
ALOUETTE HELICOPTERS DECLARED ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS BY THE FAA
When Joe Altizer's employer (Marpat Aviation of Logan, West Virginia) bought three French-built Alouette helicopters, they'd all been flying previously in the U.S. All three came certified in the standard category and with current airworthiness certificates. A couple of weeks ago, FAA inspectors, accompanied by state troopers, visited Altizer's hangar and grounded the helicopters, resulting in the layoff of two pilots and a very uncertain future for the company.
The FAA says the absence of a piece of paperwork called a Certificate of Airworthiness for Export, which should have been with the aircraft when they were originally certified in the U.S., means they aren't eligible for that certification, and inspectors are tracking down all the Alouettes in the U.S. to possibly ground them as well. What's frustrating Altizer and other Alouette operators is the FAA doesn't seem to have a solution for a bureaucratic error of their own making and it's the current aircraft owners who are paying the price. We've contacted the FAA and expect a response from them shortly.
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The Export Certificate of Airworthiness is a very important piece of paper, as it verifies the "birth" of the aircraft in meeting the FAR's.
Keep in mind that the Alouette was widely used in the military (French or otherwise). Without the Export CofA, there's no way of knowing whether it was a civil rotorcraft (certified to the FAR's/JAR's), or a military rotorcraft (certified to a MILSPEC, and which may include external stores and other mission equipment which can significantly effect maintenance, life limits, etc). The problem is significant, which the article neglects to say.
The same issue exists with the US military.
So to say that this is a "bureaucratic error of the FAA's own making" is dubious, at best.
Keep in mind that the Alouette was widely used in the military (French or otherwise). Without the Export CofA, there's no way of knowing whether it was a civil rotorcraft (certified to the FAR's/JAR's), or a military rotorcraft (certified to a MILSPEC, and which may include external stores and other mission equipment which can significantly effect maintenance, life limits, etc). The problem is significant, which the article neglects to say.
The same issue exists with the US military.
So to say that this is a "bureaucratic error of the FAA's own making" is dubious, at best.
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Naw the FAA couldn't possibly make a mistake!!!
Several of these helicopters were mistakenly issued import airworthiness certs by the FAA a few years ago. Aerospat forgot to exclude some of the serial numbers of machines built for military customers when they applied for the US type certificate. Some surplus dealers found this loophole and expolited it. Most of these machines were quickly sold to unsuspecting buyers (cheap), once the feds realized thier mistake they tried to revoke the airworthiness certs. 
Getting them to admit that they screwed up is hard enough, getting them to fix it is almost impossible. Many of the people who bought these aircraft are unaware of the problem until it's too late. So it was a beuracratic mess, caused by the FAA. Eurocopter is aware of the problem and they want nothing to do with these aircraft, they will not even discuss giving you a conformity statement if you were unlucky enough to have bougth one of these aircraft. Long story short, research the aircraft history before you buy, spend the money to hire an IA who knows the aircraft type and,"if it appears too good to be true it probably is". So the FAA isn't after all of the Alouettes, just the ones that were imported under this "mistake", and this isn't a new issue, they have been trying to do this for 5 years that I am aware of..
Getting them to admit that they screwed up is hard enough, getting them to fix it is almost impossible. Many of the people who bought these aircraft are unaware of the problem until it's too late. So it was a beuracratic mess, caused by the FAA. Eurocopter is aware of the problem and they want nothing to do with these aircraft, they will not even discuss giving you a conformity statement if you were unlucky enough to have bougth one of these aircraft. Long story short, research the aircraft history before you buy, spend the money to hire an IA who knows the aircraft type and,"if it appears too good to be true it probably is". So the FAA isn't after all of the Alouettes, just the ones that were imported under this "mistake", and this isn't a new issue, they have been trying to do this for 5 years that I am aware of..
there's no way of knowing whether it was a civil rotorcraft (certified to the FAR's/JAR's), or a military rotorcraft
Also a export certificate is not required for registration of foreign registered aircraft in Europe by the authorities (in Europe). However a Export C of A is a good insurance for the buyer that all inspections have been complied with and the aircraft has clean title.
I guess the FAA has a different view on the matter. Would be interesting to hear comments from others that are experienced in import/export to the USA?
AESIR I have imported ex mil jet rangers ( operated by civilian ) and we certainly needed export c of a to get them on register. I also think you will find that a lot of the rotables will have to be scrapped if operated by the military too.
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION
National Policy
Distribution: A-W(FS)-2; A-X(FS)-3; A-FFS-7 (LTD); AMA-200 (12 cys) Initiated By: AFS-350 (Electronically: A-W(FS)-2; A-X(FS)-2; A-FFS-7) National Policy
12/19/06 N 8300.124
Effective Date:
12/19/06
Cancellation Date:
12/19/07
12/19/06
Cancellation Date:
12/19/07
SUBJ:
Certification of Sud (Eurocopter) Alouette Helicopters
1. PURPOSE.
This notice stops the improper issuance of standard airworthiness certification to Sud (Eurocopter) Alouette (all models) helicopters. These types of aircraft are not eligible for a Standard Airworthiness Certificate, Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Form 8100-2, nor are they directly eligible for airworthiness certification in the Restricted category.
2. DISTRIBUTION.
We will distribute this notice to the division level in the Flight Standards Service in Washington headquarters, including the Regulatory Standards Division at the Mike Monroney Aeronautical Center; to the branch level in the regional Flight Standards divisions; and to all Flight Standards District Offices. Inspectors can access this notice through the Flight Standards Information Management System (FSIMS) at http://fsims.avr.faa.gov. Operators may find this information on the FAA Web site at: http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/e...spectors/8300/
3. BACKGROUND.
Since May 2004, the type certificate data sheets (TCDS) for Sud (Eurocopter) Alouette (all models) helicopters have required a review of the aircraft’s historical records to determine if the aircraft was delivered to and operated by a military organization.
4. DISCUSSION.
The TCDS have very specific requirements that must be met in order for an ex-military aircraft to be eligible for a Standard Airworthiness Certificate. These aircraft were originally built for use by various military organizations around the world and were not intended for civil certification. The aircraft may be accompanied by an "ATTESTATION" document that may appear to be equivalent to an Export Certificate of Airworthiness or used as a "certifying statement" in meeting the regulations or exporting requirements of a bilateral agreement. These documents must be reviewed to determined their true intent and usefulness in the certification process.
5. ACTION.
Effective immediately, the Fort Worth Aircraft Evaluation Group (FTW-AEG), in coordination with the Aircraft Certification’s Rotorcraft Directorate must determine/confirm any Sud (Eurocopter) Alouette (all models) helicopter’s eligibility. A written statement must be obtained from the FTW-AEG confirming an aircraft’s eligibility before a Standard Airworthiness Certificate can be issued. The only exception is for the airworthiness certification of these types and model helicopters which are seeking a special airworthiness certificate in the experimental category.
a.
The following information must be provided to the FTW-AEG in support of their review.
(1)
Builder’s name.
(2)
Model number.
(3)
Serial number.
(4)
Engine model designation.
(5)
Copy of importing document(s) (e.g., Export Certificate of Airworthiness, Attestation, etc.).
(6)
If available, a copy of any previously issued Standard Airworthiness Certificate issued by the "State-of-Design" and "State-of-Manufacture," which should be France.
b.
All aviation safety inspectors (ASI) assigned oversight responsibility of Designated Airworthiness Representatives (DARs) shall make them aware of this notice and require them to provide their managing office the information stated above for forwarding to the FTW-AEG for review. All ASIs will provide the information directly to the FTW-AEG. An airworthiness certificate must not be issued until the aircraft is determined to be eligible for a Standard Airworthiness Certificate.
6. DISPOSITION.
We will permanently incorporate the information in this notice in FSIMS before this notice expires. Questions concerning this notice should be directed to Jackie Black, Manager AFS-350, General Aviation and Avionics Branch, at (202) 267–7404.
ORIGINAL SIGNED (by)
James J. Ballough
Director, Flight Standards Service
ORIGINAL SIGNED (by)
James J. Ballough
Director, Flight Standards Service
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I was under the impression that all Eurocopter (Sud-Aviation, Aerospatiale etc.) were civil certified and then put into military OR civil use?
I suspect the dual-designation may be a fairly new means of tracking whether the aircraft was mil or civilian. I think previously, they had to be tracked by serial number...
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Latest from Avweb
Alouettes Remain Grounded
An FAA spokesman says a paperwork snag that has grounded an unkown number of French-built Alouette helicopters in the U.S. doesn't seem to have any easy solution. "The short answer is they're ungroundable," Roland Herwig, a communications officer for the FAA's Southwest office, told AVweb on Friday. Herwig also said he's continuing to gather information on the unusual case, which has shut down at least one helicopter operation in West Virginia. As AVweb reported in a July 20 podcast, Marpat Aviation of Logan, W.Va., had three Alouettes grounded on July 6 after FAA inspectors, accompanied by two state troopers, failed to find a Certificate of Airworthiness for Export that would have been issued by French authorities when the aircraft were sent to the U.S. Joe Altizer, Marpat's chief pilot, said the helicopters were purchased in the U.S. and all came with current U.S.-issued certificates of airworthiness in the standard category, meaning that FAA staff approved them for import without the paper they're now demanding. Altizer says it's not fair that current operators of the aircraft, who might be the third or fourth U.S. owners of them, should have their investments essentially erased because of an administrative error at the FAA.
Altizer said he and other Alouette owners have offered alternative solutions to the paper snag. He said the regs allow for other methods of proving airworthiness, but the FAA doesn't seem interested in pursuing them. He said the operators have even offered to bring French officials to the U.S. to inspect the aircraft and issue attestations to their airworthiness, but the FAA seems stuck on having the original paperwork only. The French officials wouldn't be able to issue export papers because the aircraft have already left their country."They're asking us for impossible paperwork," he said. Altizer said the aircraft can't even be shipped back to France because they can't be exported without current airworthiness certificates. Altizer said that to this point he's been cooperating with the FAA to try and find a mutually acceptable solution, but the agency's intransigence and apparent unwillingness to reveal information about the situation is forcing him to change tactics. The former Marine Corps air traffic controller says he's contacted his congressman and is looking for a meeting with top FAA officials, up to and including Administrator Marion Blakey.
Alouettes Remain Grounded
An FAA spokesman says a paperwork snag that has grounded an unkown number of French-built Alouette helicopters in the U.S. doesn't seem to have any easy solution. "The short answer is they're ungroundable," Roland Herwig, a communications officer for the FAA's Southwest office, told AVweb on Friday. Herwig also said he's continuing to gather information on the unusual case, which has shut down at least one helicopter operation in West Virginia. As AVweb reported in a July 20 podcast, Marpat Aviation of Logan, W.Va., had three Alouettes grounded on July 6 after FAA inspectors, accompanied by two state troopers, failed to find a Certificate of Airworthiness for Export that would have been issued by French authorities when the aircraft were sent to the U.S. Joe Altizer, Marpat's chief pilot, said the helicopters were purchased in the U.S. and all came with current U.S.-issued certificates of airworthiness in the standard category, meaning that FAA staff approved them for import without the paper they're now demanding. Altizer says it's not fair that current operators of the aircraft, who might be the third or fourth U.S. owners of them, should have their investments essentially erased because of an administrative error at the FAA.
Altizer said he and other Alouette owners have offered alternative solutions to the paper snag. He said the regs allow for other methods of proving airworthiness, but the FAA doesn't seem interested in pursuing them. He said the operators have even offered to bring French officials to the U.S. to inspect the aircraft and issue attestations to their airworthiness, but the FAA seems stuck on having the original paperwork only. The French officials wouldn't be able to issue export papers because the aircraft have already left their country."They're asking us for impossible paperwork," he said. Altizer said the aircraft can't even be shipped back to France because they can't be exported without current airworthiness certificates. Altizer said that to this point he's been cooperating with the FAA to try and find a mutually acceptable solution, but the agency's intransigence and apparent unwillingness to reveal information about the situation is forcing him to change tactics. The former Marine Corps air traffic controller says he's contacted his congressman and is looking for a meeting with top FAA officials, up to and including Administrator Marion Blakey.
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ridiculous!!
i have had the pleasure of working at marpat for the last year and have watched this situation develop over the past 6 months, it is the most stupid situation an operator can be in, marpat bought the aircraft with all the correct paper work, and have complied with the usual regs that any other operator would comply with, except one day out of the blue some big wig decides that these aircraft dont have the paper work needed to operate, which the operator can never get, so we get shut down, lose all our aircraft and the pilots are as good as out of work, and none of it is the operators fault, its all the faa,s fault, the operator gets no compensation, no sorry, just told that we are no significant impact to the industry!!! funny ole world isnt it!!!!! but it gets worse, we are lucky to only be owners of allouettes which have a fairly low acquisition cost, i feel really sorry for the lama and gazzelle owners who are going to watch the value of their aircraft plummet!! we have been told there are approx 76 aircraft in the states to lose their CoA !!! im sure this is the beginning of whats going to be a long battle with operators and the faa and it will be a very interesting outcome.
just my bit!!!
blue skies
matt
just my bit!!!
blue skies
matt
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feel really sorry for the lama and gazzelle owners who are going to watch the value of their aircraft plummet!! we have been told there are approx 76 aircraft in the states to lose their CoA !!! im sure this is the beginning of whats going to be a long battle with operators and the faa and it will be a very interesting outcome.
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its anything with the artouste engine from the military, the whole range of aircraft which is using them, as far as we were told. it is not restricted to just allouettes at all!!!
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mathew
so is the problem with the artouste military engine not the artouste cilivil engine that would go in a civil allouette 2 or 3
or is it the whole allouette range
the tds sheet for alouette 2/3 gives the civil engines not the military variants we have a similar problem in the uk where the caa will not execpt [for the gazelle ]the military variant engine the astazou 3n2 but the do except the astazou 3a and the xivh
so is the problem with the artouste military engine not the artouste cilivil engine that would go in a civil allouette 2 or 3
or is it the whole allouette range
the tds sheet for alouette 2/3 gives the civil engines not the military variants we have a similar problem in the uk where the caa will not execpt [for the gazelle ]the military variant engine the astazou 3n2 but the do except the astazou 3a and the xivh
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as far as i understand, its the ex military versions in the usa that are having the problems, if they came over here in the civilian category and apparently there are a couple here from what i understand they are ok. i have now been told that this does not apply to just helicopters and that the faa is doing the same thing with ex military fixed wing, this i cannot confirm though, i recommend for more accurate info than i can give you should talk to bossman on verticalreference, he is my old boss who is dealing with the whole thing and somwhat of an expert now on what is happening across the states. i have now left marpat aviation and to be honest not as up to date on the info as i was!!
blue skies
matt
ps where in uk are you? im a brit in the states!
blue skies
matt
ps where in uk are you? im a brit in the states!
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All this is quite interesting. I have been involved in the importation of several aircraft over the years. Most of them did not have an Export C of A. It is my understanding that all the Export C of A does is shows that the aircraft meets the airworthiness requirements of the country the aircraft is being exported from and that the aircraft is 'de-registered' in the exporting country. Even with an Export C of A, you will sill have to do a conformity inspection to put an aircraft on the importing country registration.
I know of two aircraft that can in without an Export C of A that went through an FAA NASIP (National Aviation Safety Inspection Program) inspection without any issues. These inspections are conducted by FAA people out of Oklahoma City, Washington and the regional offices. It is not a fun experience going through that.
And I know of two ex-RAF aircraft that came into the US that the FAA themselves signed off on.
At one time it was possible to convert ex-military aircraft to normal category. However that changed a few years ago. Right now they can only be converted to operated in Restricted Category. There has been discussion on the part of the FAA to rescind all the normal category airworthiness certificates issued to former military aircraft. I have not seen anything official on this though.
I did discuss the issue with a Designated Examiner today. The word he has from the FAA is that the helicopters involved are all ex-military and the Designated Airworthiness Representative (DAR) was 'pencil-whipping' the paperwork. And that this person's authority had been pulled. However it does seem strange that the FAA office involved is not willing to consider options.
I know of two aircraft that can in without an Export C of A that went through an FAA NASIP (National Aviation Safety Inspection Program) inspection without any issues. These inspections are conducted by FAA people out of Oklahoma City, Washington and the regional offices. It is not a fun experience going through that.
And I know of two ex-RAF aircraft that came into the US that the FAA themselves signed off on.
At one time it was possible to convert ex-military aircraft to normal category. However that changed a few years ago. Right now they can only be converted to operated in Restricted Category. There has been discussion on the part of the FAA to rescind all the normal category airworthiness certificates issued to former military aircraft. I have not seen anything official on this though.
I did discuss the issue with a Designated Examiner today. The word he has from the FAA is that the helicopters involved are all ex-military and the Designated Airworthiness Representative (DAR) was 'pencil-whipping' the paperwork. And that this person's authority had been pulled. However it does seem strange that the FAA office involved is not willing to consider options.
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More food for thought
If the DAR is a "pencil whipper" (sounds like a "Loomis statement") then what category does the FAA inspector (that signed off 7 of these birds) fall into?? And if the DAR got a revocation then why is the FAA inspector still on the job. This "Witch Hunt" is so out of balance - pitiful!!!
According to the latest EASA listing the Artouste and Astazou II versions do not have a type certificate!!!!
This does not affect the III versions in the Gazelle, Alouette 3 and Lama.
I am sure that I saw an article somewhere which said Turbomeca were withdrawing support from the II versions not sure which suffix.
This does not affect the III versions in the Gazelle, Alouette 3 and Lama.
I am sure that I saw an article somewhere which said Turbomeca were withdrawing support from the II versions not sure which suffix.
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the 11a engine is on the faa tds i cant find a allouette 2 tds on the caa site
heres a link if it works
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/56cb8d6209ac814f862572880073be24/$FILE/7H1.pdf
heres a link if it works
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/56cb8d6209ac814f862572880073be24/$FILE/7H1.pdf
It was actually CAP 747 where I saw the no TC comment in the list of engines manufactured by Turbomeca.
I am surprised by this, could be a mistake, but maybe they have withdrawn the type cert (Turbomeca).
I am surprised by this, could be a mistake, but maybe they have withdrawn the type cert (Turbomeca).