Twin Squirrel from Battersea
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Twin Squirrel from Battersea
Can I ask for your opinion, with detail please?
I'll give you a scenario, client calls and asks to fly 3 or 4 passengers 65Nm North from a Battersea take-off. Has already been quoted in a Twin Squirrel. What do you do?
Would you quote your AS355F2 to do the task?
What if a 5th passenger was added? I now find myself in a right pickle and need some advice going forward!
I'll give you a scenario, client calls and asks to fly 3 or 4 passengers 65Nm North from a Battersea take-off. Has already been quoted in a Twin Squirrel. What do you do?
Would you quote your AS355F2 to do the task?
What if a 5th passenger was added? I now find myself in a right pickle and need some advice going forward!
Last edited by AussieAndy; 20th Jul 2007 at 18:22. Reason: Looked shite when I saw the display!
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Presumably its Public Transport as you are 'quoting'. So with that load you will be over the max Class1 Helipad weight of 2200kg for an F2. If the floats are installed, you can fly Class2 up to MAUW with the river as your reject area.
If you don't have floats then you might make Denham (after a Class1 Helipad takeoff) for a refuel but watch the weight limits especially in summer.
Four in the back of a 355 isn't very comfortable though......
If you don't have floats then you might make Denham (after a Class1 Helipad takeoff) for a refuel but watch the weight limits especially in summer.
Four in the back of a 355 isn't very comfortable though......
It depends on what other aircraft that you have available and the budget available. In an ideal world, another aircraft might be preferable.
But, according to my maths, the job is doable. Just.
4 x 80kg + 80kg for pilot: 400kg
2200 - 1640 - 400 = 160kg fuel.
160/57 = 28% fuel. (ie just under an hour to dry tanks).
65nm is 0.5 hrs flight time. So that should leave you 20 minutes (+ a very light reserve) to find a refuel. This obviously doesn't give you much margin for unforeseen circumstances.
Not ideal. But possible. 5 pax (or v heavy pax) would necessitate a refuel at one of the 'satellite' airfields.
But, according to my maths, the job is doable. Just.
4 x 80kg + 80kg for pilot: 400kg
2200 - 1640 - 400 = 160kg fuel.
160/57 = 28% fuel. (ie just under an hour to dry tanks).
65nm is 0.5 hrs flight time. So that should leave you 20 minutes (+ a very light reserve) to find a refuel. This obviously doesn't give you much margin for unforeseen circumstances.
Not ideal. But possible. 5 pax (or v heavy pax) would necessitate a refuel at one of the 'satellite' airfields.
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So without budgeting for a refuel, and if they working on just 3 passengers, is the flight doable or did the operator, 'lead me up the garden path?'
3 pax gives you 40% fuel. This is good for an hour's flight (+ a slightly better reserve).
The operator's quote should've included an option to refuel after the drop-off. (At least ours would have!)
And bear in mind that all of these timings work for approximate weights for the pax and the weight of our Squirrels. (A heavier Squirrel would obviously not be able to carry as much fuel.) With a job this tight on fuel, I would ask for the actual weights of the pax (explaining why it's so important) and fully explain the implications of bringing either 4 or 5 pax.
Like I said before, the job is doable. Just.
The operator's quote should've included an option to refuel after the drop-off. (At least ours would have!)
And bear in mind that all of these timings work for approximate weights for the pax and the weight of our Squirrels. (A heavier Squirrel would obviously not be able to carry as much fuel.) With a job this tight on fuel, I would ask for the actual weights of the pax (explaining why it's so important) and fully explain the implications of bringing either 4 or 5 pax.
Like I said before, the job is doable. Just.
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Cheers Bravo, can you PM me your details... this flight DID happen the week before last, and it was a disaster!!!
Any other thoughts/comments/opinions are appreciated....
Any other thoughts/comments/opinions are appreciated....
Fascinating thread. Yet again leaves me wondering where the CAA has its head. Here we have a vastly expensive twin engine helicopter at best only offering borderline safety for 4 pax.
In any normal country, a single would be safer, cheaper and have better load-carrying ability.
Battersea is of course unique with its Class requirements - but when will our regulators wake up and realise that their strange regs are putting people at risk ?
Tempted to ask why the operator offered a twin when a B3 with floats could do the job ?
In any normal country, a single would be safer, cheaper and have better load-carrying ability.
Battersea is of course unique with its Class requirements - but when will our regulators wake up and realise that their strange regs are putting people at risk ?
Tempted to ask why the operator offered a twin when a B3 with floats could do the job ?
If you havent asked the weight of the pax you are really limited to 3 pax at standard weight and 1 hr fuel ....no way 4 pax legally.
The operator should have made this quite clear at the start ...he obviously did not have a float equiped machine which is the only one worth using out of B,sea. The CAA ( campaign against aviation ) have done a really fine job of making aoc,s uncompetitive.....how many pax can you take out of B,sea if you lease the helicopter ......5 ......if you charter ......3 !!!!!!
Even in a Dauphin if it is leased 9 to 10 pax ...on an aoc 6!!!
Even allowing for the CAA it sounds like a very dodgy operator to not make this clear to you ....we all know that an extra passenger is likely to turn up and the operator is saying his helicopter is a 6 seater . Name and shame i say
ps was it an F2 as old as my granny with a dodgy paint scheme ?????
The operator should have made this quite clear at the start ...he obviously did not have a float equiped machine which is the only one worth using out of B,sea. The CAA ( campaign against aviation ) have done a really fine job of making aoc,s uncompetitive.....how many pax can you take out of B,sea if you lease the helicopter ......5 ......if you charter ......3 !!!!!!
Even in a Dauphin if it is leased 9 to 10 pax ...on an aoc 6!!!
Even allowing for the CAA it sounds like a very dodgy operator to not make this clear to you ....we all know that an extra passenger is likely to turn up and the operator is saying his helicopter is a 6 seater . Name and shame i say
ps was it an F2 as old as my granny with a dodgy paint scheme ?????
And a single with floats is obviously a viable option. But then you are restricted to leaving the zone via the lanes (which can put x minutes on the trip, x being very variable!)
Why exactly is it the CAA's fault if they insist (in their mind, for safety) on Group A performance out of the helipad at Battersea? Seems quite sensible to me (and it should stop paying passengers getting wet in the event of engine troubles.)
Both aircraft you've quoted are Eurocopters. Surely you should be asking Eurocopter why they release helicopters with such pitiful Group A performance???
Both aircraft you've quoted are Eurocopters. Surely you should be asking Eurocopter why they release helicopters with such pitiful Group A performance???
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so the answer may well be to stop using battersea, its -
1) over priced
2) too small
3) in the wrong place for central london
4) will continue to have severe performance limitations especially with older types.
I think we will look back when its gone and wonder how it lasted so long !
regards
CF
1) over priced
2) too small
3) in the wrong place for central london
4) will continue to have severe performance limitations especially with older types.
I think we will look back when its gone and wonder how it lasted so long !
regards
CF
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Bravo73
"Surely you should be asking Eurocopter why they release helicopters with such pitiful Group A performance???"
The AS355N has excellent Group A performance at 2540Kg; in fact the latest NP (though few if any about) has full 2600kg Group A.
Everyone here seems to be assuming it is an F that has quoted for the job. May be it is an N. There are quite a few 355Ns around and 6 x 90 kg persons with 1.5 hours fuel is easily do-able operating to Class 1.
"Surely you should be asking Eurocopter why they release helicopters with such pitiful Group A performance???"
The AS355N has excellent Group A performance at 2540Kg; in fact the latest NP (though few if any about) has full 2600kg Group A.
Everyone here seems to be assuming it is an F that has quoted for the job. May be it is an N. There are quite a few 355Ns around and 6 x 90 kg persons with 1.5 hours fuel is easily do-able operating to Class 1.
Bravo 73 why is it deemed safe enough if the a/c is leased but not safe if it is chartered ?
It appears the operator offered up their F which under the caa rules is obviously not the right machine for the job . They are therefore mis selling and in the process giving the whole industry a bad name and leaving 4 or 5 people with a very bad taste in their mouths.....they are not going to know that they should have asked for a 355N or that they should have asked for floats !!!!! This is supposed to be a service industry but you would never have guessed it !!
It appears the operator offered up their F which under the caa rules is obviously not the right machine for the job . They are therefore mis selling and in the process giving the whole industry a bad name and leaving 4 or 5 people with a very bad taste in their mouths.....they are not going to know that they should have asked for a 355N or that they should have asked for floats !!!!! This is supposed to be a service industry but you would never have guessed it !!
As we've already established, yes, of course, there are aircraft better suited for the job. But it was/is doable by an F2.Not really. Given the facts above, the job was doable. I don't think that AussieAndy is giving us the full facts though.
And to rotorspeed:
But thanks for the performance info anyway. 
BRAVO 73
A reply to some of your points.
Your point about killing passengers seems illogical , as it is quite clear that they allow private flights to take far more passengers than aoc ones
If they wished to keep the "tally" down they would allow the "pros" to take more pax.?
At standard weights the flight was NOT doable in the F2. This has been confirmed to me by 2 operators. ( in any event if it was that close they should have alerted the client ...what if 2 of the pax were fatties ???)
I agree that there is no room for passing off a pvt flight as public but am not aware of that happening. ( people who lease aircraft sign agreements etc etc and are fully aware )
Lastly i agree that the client is not interested in what type he is flying ....but he is expecting the operator to provide a suitable machine for the purpose !! Would you go and inspect your surgeons scalpels before an op just to check they are sharp and clean ????? No and neither should a client have to check that he has been sold the right aircraft. The broker probably deals with hundreds of different types of aircraft and cannot be expected to know all the quirks and performances of each make and model. Did you, for instance know that a dauphin can only take 5 pax and reasonable fuel ? ( i didnt !!)
Anyway a very good lesson on how not to do it !!
A reply to some of your points.
Your point about killing passengers seems illogical , as it is quite clear that they allow private flights to take far more passengers than aoc ones
If they wished to keep the "tally" down they would allow the "pros" to take more pax.?At standard weights the flight was NOT doable in the F2. This has been confirmed to me by 2 operators. ( in any event if it was that close they should have alerted the client ...what if 2 of the pax were fatties ???)
I agree that there is no room for passing off a pvt flight as public but am not aware of that happening. ( people who lease aircraft sign agreements etc etc and are fully aware )
Lastly i agree that the client is not interested in what type he is flying ....but he is expecting the operator to provide a suitable machine for the purpose !! Would you go and inspect your surgeons scalpels before an op just to check they are sharp and clean ????? No and neither should a client have to check that he has been sold the right aircraft. The broker probably deals with hundreds of different types of aircraft and cannot be expected to know all the quirks and performances of each make and model. Did you, for instance know that a dauphin can only take 5 pax and reasonable fuel ? ( i didnt !!)
Anyway a very good lesson on how not to do it !!
Do you know understand?
And finally:
BRAVO
You appear to be very agressive ,saying that i am lying and just plain wrong on everything ....if this is the way you operate then it is a wonder that you have any clients at all !!!!
By the way how many pax can a CJ2 take out of La Mole airport , S France on a hot day ???? What is the internal weight you can take in a 109 Mk11 with floats and aux fuel tanks ???? I very much doubt if you have a clue And if you gave an answer i would assume you are lying again , as usual oh , and next time you book your flights ask your travel agent what distance runway the aircraft requires .....I,m sure they will know !!!! If you really believe that asking the operator if his helicopter can take off safely is NOT similar to asking your surgeon if his knives are sharp then that is up to you .....I think they are similar and personally not ring up BA just to check they have enough runway
As for the lease agreements ....how long do you want one for ?? It has to be flown by a competent pilot though..
You appear to be very agressive ,saying that i am lying and just plain wrong on everything ....if this is the way you operate then it is a wonder that you have any clients at all !!!!
By the way how many pax can a CJ2 take out of La Mole airport , S France on a hot day ???? What is the internal weight you can take in a 109 Mk11 with floats and aux fuel tanks ???? I very much doubt if you have a clue
And if you gave an answer i would assume you are lying again , as usual oh , and next time you book your flights ask your travel agent what distance runway the aircraft requires .....I,m sure they will know !!!! If you really believe that asking the operator if his helicopter can take off safely is NOT similar to asking your surgeon if his knives are sharp then that is up to you .....I think they are similar and personally not ring up BA just to check they have enough runway As for the lease agreements ....how long do you want one for ?? It has to be flown by a competent pilot though..