Helicopter Captains required £48K, plus benefits.
Guest
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I think the main reason is that we have a declining market! The only area with any (limited capacity!)hope these days seems to be in Police / HEMS. The UK market there has been cut-throat to get the contracts and will probably continue to be so for some time. Let's hope the market players realise that they should get their act together and give a better salary scale soon or folks will drift to plank wing and airlines even quicker..
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May the Force be with you - and may Gravity treat you gently..
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May the Force be with you - and may Gravity treat you gently..
Guest
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Yes, now we're getting somewhere. BJ, quite agree, I'd take less if the COST of living and lifestyle were lower and better.
For you old, bold pilot's out there and for those with a memory. A Helo' drivers salary AND conditions have deteriorated to the point that they are lower than that of a First Officers on a plank who probably has 200-700ish hour's, not as experienced, probably not ex-mil etc. Probably not having to succumb to some sort of roster involving unsocial hours, you better than most should know that SKYCOP!
From my humble experience, I reckon we have regressed over 10 years. I left a 5 day a week, daylight hours only job in 1989, on 25K.
I was offerd a job a short while ago flying a twin, night/day roster, less than 20 days leave,no benefits to speak of, for 29K !! No wonder the post is still vacant!
Anyone ever followed the US and their salaries? R&W do an annual salary review. Don't think anyone would dare do one in the UK! In 1992 I visited extensively in the US and reckoned they were getting dollars for our pounds. I now estimate we are averaging a third behind them and look at the positive state of their economy, back to BJ!
AND the CAA/BHAB/Employers tell us we don't need an IR, meanwhile we still see IMC type accidents!
So what is the answer guy's?
I'll put the orange box away now!!!
For you old, bold pilot's out there and for those with a memory. A Helo' drivers salary AND conditions have deteriorated to the point that they are lower than that of a First Officers on a plank who probably has 200-700ish hour's, not as experienced, probably not ex-mil etc. Probably not having to succumb to some sort of roster involving unsocial hours, you better than most should know that SKYCOP!
From my humble experience, I reckon we have regressed over 10 years. I left a 5 day a week, daylight hours only job in 1989, on 25K.
I was offerd a job a short while ago flying a twin, night/day roster, less than 20 days leave,no benefits to speak of, for 29K !! No wonder the post is still vacant!
Anyone ever followed the US and their salaries? R&W do an annual salary review. Don't think anyone would dare do one in the UK! In 1992 I visited extensively in the US and reckoned they were getting dollars for our pounds. I now estimate we are averaging a third behind them and look at the positive state of their economy, back to BJ!
AND the CAA/BHAB/Employers tell us we don't need an IR, meanwhile we still see IMC type accidents!
So what is the answer guy's?
I'll put the orange box away now!!!
Guest
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The salary rates for helicopter pilots in UK are driven by the North Sea because that's where the recruiting or firing power comes from. In 1987, Bristow, alarmed by the loss of pilots to plank wing, awarded a graded pay rise dependant on age, seniority etc. I went from 25-30k overnight as a 76 Captain, 1987 remember.
Since then, there has not been a migration of such large numbers at one time so there hasn't had to be such a catch up. It is now long overdue. When the North Sea pays better, then everyone else will have to catch up and things might improve. There is often discussion about pay rates in these great pages, but I see no action.
The North Sea pilots must unite and act as one, actually do something for a change. They have big power but don't seem to want to use it.
If you want a pay rise, then don't just whinge about it, do something about it. It's called a union. Get your union to work for you and get what you deserve. You will thank yourselves and other sectors of the UK helo industry will thank you.
Since then, there has not been a migration of such large numbers at one time so there hasn't had to be such a catch up. It is now long overdue. When the North Sea pays better, then everyone else will have to catch up and things might improve. There is often discussion about pay rates in these great pages, but I see no action.
The North Sea pilots must unite and act as one, actually do something for a change. They have big power but don't seem to want to use it.
If you want a pay rise, then don't just whinge about it, do something about it. It's called a union. Get your union to work for you and get what you deserve. You will thank yourselves and other sectors of the UK helo industry will thank you.
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I believe that the low pay is due to the fact that so many ex-mil guys cannot be bothered to barter for a decent basic salary because of the same tired old thing that's mentioned everytime that flying for PAS, Rigs etc is brought up - ' Well I know its not much, but with my pension blah blah blah'. It is because of this attitude that the rotary world is paid so badly. I suggest that all ex-mil types get together and tell their employers to ram it until the pay improves, and I also suggest that these guys phone every helo sqn, flt or whatever and tell their mates what the situation is and what to do, ie fall in line as not to sell rotary guys down the swanie! After all how many pure civvy helo pilots with ATPL are there in the UK? I bet that there aren't enough to fill the jobs/meet the requirements for employment!
[This message has been edited by Hydraulic Palm Tree (edited 26 July 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Hydraulic Palm Tree (edited 26 July 1999).]
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What a pleasure to see a concensus of opinion for a change.
We are getting most of the points that we believe drive down our lot, there are more to come I feel, competative tendering by the cops and other onshore contract's, novelty value of certain job's appealing to the inexperienced (for a short time!), dual-rated plank-drivers with no moral obligation to their old colleagues (doing it on the cheap), the ubiquitous military pension. Possibly people too ready to accept second class citizenship! CAA/BHAB too ready to bow to commercial concerns, rather than what is right for the workers within it and ultimately the industry as a whole (Golden Goose syndrome!)including it's safety.
What is to be done????
We are getting most of the points that we believe drive down our lot, there are more to come I feel, competative tendering by the cops and other onshore contract's, novelty value of certain job's appealing to the inexperienced (for a short time!), dual-rated plank-drivers with no moral obligation to their old colleagues (doing it on the cheap), the ubiquitous military pension. Possibly people too ready to accept second class citizenship! CAA/BHAB too ready to bow to commercial concerns, rather than what is right for the workers within it and ultimately the industry as a whole (Golden Goose syndrome!)including it's safety.
What is to be done????
Guest
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I agree with HPT above; the driving force for salaries must be the number of ex-mil pilots who are too willing to work for not much on the basis that they have have earned a pension from their mil service. Could this situation be, in part, caused by the number of relatively-poorly paid ex-SNCO AAC pilots forced to leave at 22 years service; I suspect that these are more happy to work for barely £30k plus a pension.
If the point regarding the North Sea sector driving pilot pay is correct I suspect all helicopter pilots are in for a hard time, given the bleak prospects for offshore contracts.
The only question is - are enough rotary pilots leaving to go to the airlines to reduce the supply and hence increase the demand and therefore cause an increase in salaries?
Many RAF pilots seem to be going that way, but then again many of them have enough FW hours to make it reasonably easy to get a frozen ATPL. Others may not find it so easy.
[This message has been edited by PUP (edited 26 July 1999).]
If the point regarding the North Sea sector driving pilot pay is correct I suspect all helicopter pilots are in for a hard time, given the bleak prospects for offshore contracts.
The only question is - are enough rotary pilots leaving to go to the airlines to reduce the supply and hence increase the demand and therefore cause an increase in salaries?
Many RAF pilots seem to be going that way, but then again many of them have enough FW hours to make it reasonably easy to get a frozen ATPL. Others may not find it so easy.
[This message has been edited by PUP (edited 26 July 1999).]
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PUP
You missed the point. I am not denying that there are plenty of ex mil drivers who will work for 30k, but if the salary rates on the North Sea increased by 25%, as they should do, the onshore side of the industry would be forced to pay more.
The North Sea aircraft numbers are basically stable, there will always be some contract movement between companies and the odd sharing deal but this will have limited impact as those oil companies who can share are already doing it.
The only advantage of flying onshore is that you don't have to wear an immersion suit and that you don't have to live in Aberdeen or Yarmouth. Anybody who doesn't have an ATPL/IR and who flies anything smaller than an S76 or 365N doesn't deserve more than 30k anyway.
You missed the point. I am not denying that there are plenty of ex mil drivers who will work for 30k, but if the salary rates on the North Sea increased by 25%, as they should do, the onshore side of the industry would be forced to pay more.
The North Sea aircraft numbers are basically stable, there will always be some contract movement between companies and the odd sharing deal but this will have limited impact as those oil companies who can share are already doing it.
The only advantage of flying onshore is that you don't have to wear an immersion suit and that you don't have to live in Aberdeen or Yarmouth. Anybody who doesn't have an ATPL/IR and who flies anything smaller than an S76 or 365N doesn't deserve more than 30k anyway.
Guest
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LE, I am intrigued by your opinion that aircraft size should govern salary. What are you getting at and why? I take it you fly something not smaller than...Also, from your profile you appear to be somewhat out of the UK market; 12000 miles or so. You may not have all the relevant facts.
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Yes, I am a long way from the UK market but it is a recent move so I still know what is going on there. My point about size was really more about equipment and complexity.
If you are Multi Engine, IFR, ATPL, with lots of experience, then you should command a higher salary than if you are a VFR 206 pilot doing charter work. The two markets are separate. The Multi Engine IFR pay rates will be dictated by the biggest users of those skills and requirements, ie the North Sea Operators. If the North Sea sheds pilots who have that ME experience and they become available on the market, then supply and demand will dictate that the pay rates will remain low.
As I said before, when pilots were leaving the North Sea to go fixed wing in 1987-88 in big numbers, salary scales went up by
15-20% and the whole industry, offshore and onshore, had to lift their game. The North Sea Operators, therefore, need to increase salaries before you can all earn an extra quid and that won't happen without a united approach.
If you are Multi Engine, IFR, ATPL, with lots of experience, then you should command a higher salary than if you are a VFR 206 pilot doing charter work. The two markets are separate. The Multi Engine IFR pay rates will be dictated by the biggest users of those skills and requirements, ie the North Sea Operators. If the North Sea sheds pilots who have that ME experience and they become available on the market, then supply and demand will dictate that the pay rates will remain low.
As I said before, when pilots were leaving the North Sea to go fixed wing in 1987-88 in big numbers, salary scales went up by
15-20% and the whole industry, offshore and onshore, had to lift their game. The North Sea Operators, therefore, need to increase salaries before you can all earn an extra quid and that won't happen without a united approach.
Guest
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Sorry, only a nibble! I guess pilots like me are somewhere in between your two cases. In fact I took a 60% pay drop when I left my last job (single pilot IFR, multiple types, multi role), so I know exactly what you are talking about. The experience level required for the two jobs are roughly the same although this one doesn't require an IR as police work can't be done if you're not VMC. In this country we are underpaid, full stop. P.S. I am also fixed-wing qualified and may soon be forced to move on to pay the bills...
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May the Force be with you - and may Gravity treat you gently..
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May the Force be with you - and may Gravity treat you gently..
Guest
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I agree that the whole UK (and many other countries) helicopter pilots are underpaid. Sad thing is that unless something is done about it by the pilots themselves, then little is likely to change.
Helicopter flying for a good company with a reasonable pay packet and fair working conditions can be a great job. Pilots don't even mind wearing rubber suits, so long as they are looked after as people and in the pay packet. As an industry, we're not greedy, we just want a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. The industry will not be able to attract good people unless salaries are in line with the skills, dangers and requirements of the job.
The offshore helicopter pilots here do reasonably ok, not as well as they should, but ok. However, the lower cost of living and the lifestyle go a long way to making things better than they otherwise would be.
The current helicopter salaries and conditions have been hard won by many a session in the industrial courts backed by the union. Basically, the union here have done ok for their rotary wing members.
That's what needs to happen in the UK, firstly on the North Sea because that's where the impact can initially be made. Strong, united union representation and full recognition of the unions by the operator's management is needed before things can improve. Experience has shown that if everybody just sits back then things will only get worse.
Helicopter flying for a good company with a reasonable pay packet and fair working conditions can be a great job. Pilots don't even mind wearing rubber suits, so long as they are looked after as people and in the pay packet. As an industry, we're not greedy, we just want a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. The industry will not be able to attract good people unless salaries are in line with the skills, dangers and requirements of the job.
The offshore helicopter pilots here do reasonably ok, not as well as they should, but ok. However, the lower cost of living and the lifestyle go a long way to making things better than they otherwise would be.
The current helicopter salaries and conditions have been hard won by many a session in the industrial courts backed by the union. Basically, the union here have done ok for their rotary wing members.
That's what needs to happen in the UK, firstly on the North Sea because that's where the impact can initially be made. Strong, united union representation and full recognition of the unions by the operator's management is needed before things can improve. Experience has shown that if everybody just sits back then things will only get worse.
Guest
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Well I'm ex-mil with a pension and I do not think it is relevant to what I would ask for a day's pay. Like everyone else in this forum I would like more. As to the various statements about a union could anyone point me/us in the right direction of which one to join? Also I should point out that SNCO pilots in the mil are not badly paid ie at S/Sgt level with 8 years experience they are on about 40K. Much better than the norm in the UK.
Guest
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Guys,
You are all missing the causes somewhere.
Basically, unless the pilots can shut down the N. Sea little is going to be done as the oil companies are driving the cost reduction.
The oil majors have a cost reduction initiative called CRINE, which aims to reduce production costs to $10 a barrel by next year, and $8 a barrel by 2002! They are going to bully all their contractors to cut costs, and the biggest costs which can be easily controlled is wages. You have all, I'm sure, seen the press about the other independent offshore contractors threatening strike action because they were having their wages CUT, not just not increased!
The N. Sea is a very unhappy place to be right now, for good reason. I don't think that anybody feels secure in their job!
You are all missing the causes somewhere.
Basically, unless the pilots can shut down the N. Sea little is going to be done as the oil companies are driving the cost reduction.
The oil majors have a cost reduction initiative called CRINE, which aims to reduce production costs to $10 a barrel by next year, and $8 a barrel by 2002! They are going to bully all their contractors to cut costs, and the biggest costs which can be easily controlled is wages. You have all, I'm sure, seen the press about the other independent offshore contractors threatening strike action because they were having their wages CUT, not just not increased!
The N. Sea is a very unhappy place to be right now, for good reason. I don't think that anybody feels secure in their job!
Guest
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I qualified one year ago in Australia and you think you guys in the UK. have got it hard try AUS.dollars 20,000 i think thats about pounds 8k per year. dont get me wrong i love this job and wish i had taken it up sooner but you guys aint got it so bad over there. 30k pounds is an alright living in the uk, ok maybe not as much as the stiff wing world but its a decent living,,just food for thought, cheers and safe flying to all