r22 rollover
Guest
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WB,
>>Sounds like this was the first flight of the day. So how come they didn't do a full preflight check and realise the skids were frozen to the ground? Sounds an awful lot like carelessness to me, unless I'm missing something here.<<
Sounds like it to me too. What else may they have forgone? Cold weather pre-flights can be a b*tch, but you got to do them. Just another case of not taking the proper steps to assure safety, period.
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Marc
>>Sounds like this was the first flight of the day. So how come they didn't do a full preflight check and realise the skids were frozen to the ground? Sounds an awful lot like carelessness to me, unless I'm missing something here.<<
Sounds like it to me too. What else may they have forgone? Cold weather pre-flights can be a b*tch, but you got to do them. Just another case of not taking the proper steps to assure safety, period.
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Marc
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4Rvibes:
Well said. With you all the way.
A fellow aviator (may have) made a mistake. It's far to early to be sure.
Even if he did, let's just be happy that a few days before Christmas, nobody was killed, nobody was widowed, no child lost a parent.
If the day ever arrived when I knew everything, and never made a mistake, perhaps I'd adopt the Whirlybird approach.
In the meantime, there but for the grace of God ....
Lu: What on earth have your posts, especially the last, got to do with this thread?
Hoverman made a valid point very politely. Instead of taking the point, you just took the opportunity to add yet another anti-Robinson post. Amazing!
Well said. With you all the way.
A fellow aviator (may have) made a mistake. It's far to early to be sure.
Even if he did, let's just be happy that a few days before Christmas, nobody was killed, nobody was widowed, no child lost a parent.
If the day ever arrived when I knew everything, and never made a mistake, perhaps I'd adopt the Whirlybird approach.
In the meantime, there but for the grace of God ....
Lu: What on earth have your posts, especially the last, got to do with this thread?
Hoverman made a valid point very politely. Instead of taking the point, you just took the opportunity to add yet another anti-Robinson post. Amazing!
Guest
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Yes, nondeplume, carelessness is what it sounds like. But it might not have been; I wasn't there and I was relying on jacquestall's account of what happened. and I could be wrong anyway. And if it was, yes, I too have been careless, many times, and there but for the grace of God etc. And yes, thankfully no-one was killed. All these things are true, why the oversensitivity to an opinion all of a sudden? 
This is PPRuNe!!!
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
This is PPRuNe!!!------------------
Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
Guest
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Still pleased that no one was injured as I am sure everyone is. Unfortunate that the skids were not checked (an assumption)for everyone. I have answered so many calls today "...and with all these accidents...."
Just shows what such an incident can do to
public perception. If two other people fell
off a motorcycle on the road nearby and were not badly injured the story would not have travelled further than the end of that road.
Reason for writing though is just to say that
all the good advice in the world on DR deals only with a drifting heli, not one with a skid stuck. By the time the stuck skid breaks free it is practically all over, it's a different game. It happens even faster than the tethered skid which must take up its slack first.
It would be some mighty quick pilot that managed to lower the lever and save the situation. I doubt it is possible. The best advice has to be check first, no matter if the Heli has been there 10 mins or 10 hrs. Easy to check with a Robbie as I mentioned eariler - Use the tail check. The 'power to hover' is also a very good check, well said.
Humour - It can be misunderstood (and don't I know it!). As long as we are all happy with our own conduct then that is often the best we can do. You most certainly cannot please everyone. In that way I am happy with what I had to say on the matter and do not intend to add to it now.
Just shows what such an incident can do to
public perception. If two other people fell
off a motorcycle on the road nearby and were not badly injured the story would not have travelled further than the end of that road.
Reason for writing though is just to say that
all the good advice in the world on DR deals only with a drifting heli, not one with a skid stuck. By the time the stuck skid breaks free it is practically all over, it's a different game. It happens even faster than the tethered skid which must take up its slack first.
It would be some mighty quick pilot that managed to lower the lever and save the situation. I doubt it is possible. The best advice has to be check first, no matter if the Heli has been there 10 mins or 10 hrs. Easy to check with a Robbie as I mentioned eariler - Use the tail check. The 'power to hover' is also a very good check, well said.
Humour - It can be misunderstood (and don't I know it!). As long as we are all happy with our own conduct then that is often the best we can do. You most certainly cannot please everyone. In that way I am happy with what I had to say on the matter and do not intend to add to it now.
Guest
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Nom de plume - Are you seriously implying that just because no-one died in this accident that a complete lack of airmanship should be forgiven. I and many other QHIs spend hours trying to prevent such occurences by highlighting such cock-ups in the hope that our students will never make the same errors. If the reports are correct then the pilot (who sounds like a rich boy with a PPL given his attitude about it being a lot of fuss about nothing) failed to observe a very basic principle of aviation ie completing a thorough pre-flight walkround to ascertain if the aircraft is fit to fly.
I hope he has learned his lesson as is aviation not many people get a second chance!
I hope he has learned his lesson as is aviation not many people get a second chance!
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During training in the Robo we had a simple way of checking if the skids were stuck: watch carefully when the instructor gets in.
Normally the skids splay out and the fuselage sinks. If nothing happens it means the skids are stuck to the ground...
Note: If the skids are stuck, in certain cases the weight of instructor climbing in may even serve to dislodge them.
Normally the skids splay out and the fuselage sinks. If nothing happens it means the skids are stuck to the ground...
Note: If the skids are stuck, in certain cases the weight of instructor climbing in may even serve to dislodge them.
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Hoverman - as a person who had to pass what is widely acknowledged to be the best flying training system in the world with the highest chop rate and the highest entry qualifications in order to fly a helicopter I think I am entitled to be pissed off that a civvy with c*ck all aptitude but a fat wallet gets to pollute the air and (ground in this case) and shrugs off a very serious accident as just one of those things!
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Sparecrew :
I appreciate your objection to poor airmanship. I don't appreciate jumping to conclusions on nil evidence of someone else's background on flying - even ex-mil pilots have been known to brave Robbies, and also to bend them and other types in a careless manner.
Is it not possible that, faced with the press, the gent concerned was a) feeling lucky to be still in one piece, b) trying to say something non-committal to avoid future embarrassment and c) perhaps still slightly shocked ? And have other people never thought of you as an air-polluter in the sense you use ?
Of course, all the above is based on pure conjecture and no evidence, so feel free to ignore me and make your own minds up.
At least, having seen this, I know I've got one more thing to do on my walk-around.
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I got bored with "WhoNeedsRunways"
I appreciate your objection to poor airmanship. I don't appreciate jumping to conclusions on nil evidence of someone else's background on flying - even ex-mil pilots have been known to brave Robbies, and also to bend them and other types in a careless manner.
Is it not possible that, faced with the press, the gent concerned was a) feeling lucky to be still in one piece, b) trying to say something non-committal to avoid future embarrassment and c) perhaps still slightly shocked ? And have other people never thought of you as an air-polluter in the sense you use ?
Of course, all the above is based on pure conjecture and no evidence, so feel free to ignore me and make your own minds up.
At least, having seen this, I know I've got one more thing to do on my walk-around.
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I got bored with "WhoNeedsRunways"
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Yes, there but for the grace me too!
This chap was unlucky that his mistake (if he made one) was very unforgiving.
I had a little grin at the thought of watching the skids spread when an Instructor got in! It is a good and valid point, much truth in it but the thought of an Instructor in my past(The fat controller) just creased me!
Haven't written just for that. There have been some wise words on pedal/tail waggling. They are good moves for surfaces that have 'suction' or stickiness but I have to doubt they would have worked in this case.
An R22 TR produces circa 72 Lbs of thrust.
The MR (we do not know how much power was being pulled but it must have been enough for a vertical lift otherwise the roll would not have occurred) is doing its job whilst the skid or skids are/is being held down.
That would be around 1300 -1370 Lbs of vertical(if the stick were properly centred) thrust. It seems reasonable to assume that if the MR couldn't break the skid(s) free at (say) 1000 Lbs thrust the TR isn't going to do it with 72 from the end of a long and flexible tail. (I have thought over the lever/arm principle but doubt it has much bearing here.) I think that if the Heli were held firmly enough to the ground by frost or ice, all that would result from pedal juggling is tail deflection.
I realise it is different in many ways, the skids lie in a different plane for the TR and MR thrust but I think the figures are overwhelming.
I lived in England long enough to have many things very firmly welded to the ground by ice, thankfullly none of them were my helicopter!
The sad thing is that you could say the Heli was not bonded to the ground firmly enough.
The pilot's warning lights and bells (in his head) might have come on if he got to 23-24"
and was going nowhere, having both skids equally well stuck. What caused this roll was only one of them 'letting go'.
If a lot of power is applied whilst only one of the skids was either not stuck at all
or it broke free first, that certainly sets up momentum in a direction none of us want.
Anyway, this is not said to dilute any of what has been said on the matter. What it actually is intended to do is to underline
the real point. It just cannot be got away from. I very much doubt that any pilot could
be as fast with the lever as he would have to be to recover from this 'catapult' type of roll. It is all over when the Heli gets to 42 degrees (or less with full fuel) anyway, no amount of lever lowering will stop the roll then.I also doubt that a Heli stuck that fast to the ground would be freed by pedal juggling in any but the mildest of cases.
It would be interesting to know which side
the Heli rolled to. I've been making a little study into DR for while now. My view is that it is most often a roll to the left (with anti clock MR) for many reasons, principally because of the left skid low attitude and a couple produced between TR thrust to the right and horizontal MR thrust to the left.
Then again, that is only valid with a roll caused by drift.
This one wasn't caused by drift at all and either skid could have 'let go'first. Whichever side it was would govern the direction of the roll.
Getting back to the point I was about to make, I do know one thing with absolute certainty.
If the pre - flight check includes leaning the tail down, levering the skids or testing
using the ground handling wheels to lift the skids no recovery is required as the prevention will succeed.
This chap was unlucky that his mistake (if he made one) was very unforgiving.
I had a little grin at the thought of watching the skids spread when an Instructor got in! It is a good and valid point, much truth in it but the thought of an Instructor in my past(The fat controller) just creased me!
Haven't written just for that. There have been some wise words on pedal/tail waggling. They are good moves for surfaces that have 'suction' or stickiness but I have to doubt they would have worked in this case.
An R22 TR produces circa 72 Lbs of thrust.
The MR (we do not know how much power was being pulled but it must have been enough for a vertical lift otherwise the roll would not have occurred) is doing its job whilst the skid or skids are/is being held down.
That would be around 1300 -1370 Lbs of vertical(if the stick were properly centred) thrust. It seems reasonable to assume that if the MR couldn't break the skid(s) free at (say) 1000 Lbs thrust the TR isn't going to do it with 72 from the end of a long and flexible tail. (I have thought over the lever/arm principle but doubt it has much bearing here.) I think that if the Heli were held firmly enough to the ground by frost or ice, all that would result from pedal juggling is tail deflection.
I realise it is different in many ways, the skids lie in a different plane for the TR and MR thrust but I think the figures are overwhelming.
I lived in England long enough to have many things very firmly welded to the ground by ice, thankfullly none of them were my helicopter!
The sad thing is that you could say the Heli was not bonded to the ground firmly enough.
The pilot's warning lights and bells (in his head) might have come on if he got to 23-24"
and was going nowhere, having both skids equally well stuck. What caused this roll was only one of them 'letting go'.
If a lot of power is applied whilst only one of the skids was either not stuck at all
or it broke free first, that certainly sets up momentum in a direction none of us want.
Anyway, this is not said to dilute any of what has been said on the matter. What it actually is intended to do is to underline
the real point. It just cannot be got away from. I very much doubt that any pilot could
be as fast with the lever as he would have to be to recover from this 'catapult' type of roll. It is all over when the Heli gets to 42 degrees (or less with full fuel) anyway, no amount of lever lowering will stop the roll then.I also doubt that a Heli stuck that fast to the ground would be freed by pedal juggling in any but the mildest of cases.
It would be interesting to know which side
the Heli rolled to. I've been making a little study into DR for while now. My view is that it is most often a roll to the left (with anti clock MR) for many reasons, principally because of the left skid low attitude and a couple produced between TR thrust to the right and horizontal MR thrust to the left.
Then again, that is only valid with a roll caused by drift.
This one wasn't caused by drift at all and either skid could have 'let go'first. Whichever side it was would govern the direction of the roll.
Getting back to the point I was about to make, I do know one thing with absolute certainty.
If the pre - flight check includes leaning the tail down, levering the skids or testing
using the ground handling wheels to lift the skids no recovery is required as the prevention will succeed.
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Imlanphere :
I have read about this technique, but only in relation to a Huey in Vietnam on a boggy field - sticky but pliable enough to be prised free.
Whether it would work on ice is a different matter, and on the R22 it's small enough to pull the tail gearbox downwards, different altogether in something a tad larger.
As SPS says, prevention is the only sure cure.
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I got bored with "WhoNeedsRunways"
I have read about this technique, but only in relation to a Huey in Vietnam on a boggy field - sticky but pliable enough to be prised free.
Whether it would work on ice is a different matter, and on the R22 it's small enough to pull the tail gearbox downwards, different altogether in something a tad larger.
As SPS says, prevention is the only sure cure.
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I got bored with "WhoNeedsRunways"
Guest
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Hey SPS,
I agree with you on not noticing something not right (not light on skids, etc.) at 23'-24'.
No where else is an activity so unforgiving of complacency and innattention to detail, but it is still rewarding isn't it? (Like when you drop into a confined area, etc.
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Marc
I agree with you on not noticing something not right (not light on skids, etc.) at 23'-24'.
No where else is an activity so unforgiving of complacency and innattention to detail, but it is still rewarding isn't it? (Like when you drop into a confined area, etc.
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Marc
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The days of vines and noses:
NTSB Identification: MIA01LA007
Accident occurred OCT-17-00 at MARIANNA, FL
Aircraft: Robinson R-22 BETA, registration: N621DM
Injuries: 2 Minor.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
On October 17, 2000, about 0800 eastern daylight time, a Robinson R-22 Beta, N621DM, registered to and operated by Skycopters Incorporated, as a Title 14 CFR Part 91 aerial observation flight, experienced dynamic rollover during takeoff from a field in Marianna, Florida. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan was filed. The pilot and passenger received minor injuries, and the aircraft incurred substantial damage. The flight was originating at the time of the accident. The pilot stated that his headset came off in flight, and he had landed in a field to secure the headset. The pilot further stated that while attempting to take off from the field, the helicopter's right skid became entangled in a vine, and the helicopter rolled over and incurred substantial damage.
RW 1 do you know this guy? This is what can happen when you fly with the doors off.
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The Cat
[This message has been edited by Lu Zuckerman (edited 23 December 2000).]
NTSB Identification: MIA01LA007
Accident occurred OCT-17-00 at MARIANNA, FL
Aircraft: Robinson R-22 BETA, registration: N621DM
Injuries: 2 Minor.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
On October 17, 2000, about 0800 eastern daylight time, a Robinson R-22 Beta, N621DM, registered to and operated by Skycopters Incorporated, as a Title 14 CFR Part 91 aerial observation flight, experienced dynamic rollover during takeoff from a field in Marianna, Florida. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan was filed. The pilot and passenger received minor injuries, and the aircraft incurred substantial damage. The flight was originating at the time of the accident. The pilot stated that his headset came off in flight, and he had landed in a field to secure the headset. The pilot further stated that while attempting to take off from the field, the helicopter's right skid became entangled in a vine, and the helicopter rolled over and incurred substantial damage.
RW 1 do you know this guy? This is what can happen when you fly with the doors off.
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The Cat
[This message has been edited by Lu Zuckerman (edited 23 December 2000).]
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To: RW1
I tried to do exactly what you said about paying for one hour in an R22 to demonstrate the tendency for the disc to tilt left when the cyclic was pushed forward. Guess what, the only R22 in this area was destroyed in a dynamic rollover.
Fate is the hunter.
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The Cat
I tried to do exactly what you said about paying for one hour in an R22 to demonstrate the tendency for the disc to tilt left when the cyclic was pushed forward. Guess what, the only R22 in this area was destroyed in a dynamic rollover.
Fate is the hunter.
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The Cat