Heli Instrument training aircraft
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Heli Instrument training aircraft
Can anyone tell me why only one company in the UK is allowed to use a single engined Helicopter for instrument training while all others are told It's because of grandfather rights and the CAA will not give any further permissions. Job for the Department of Fair Trading right?
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Whirlybird :
Just to fill you in on the history, all newly qualified commercial pilots who start work for the big companies on the north sea used to be able to fly as first officers without an instrument rating. The CAA have insisted that the new JAR requirement is enforced, this being that all first officers now have to be instrument qualified.
This means that direct entry to these positions is now only available to ex military pilots who are instrument qualified(most are)or individuals who have paid for the instrument training themselves.
There is only one school in the UK that has approval to use a single engined helicopter to train for the instrument rating. The CAA refuse to allow any other companies to provide this training. If a twin is used then there is no problem but an individual will find it completely unviable to pay for this as a career proposition. If you can get the queen to pay for it then your laughing.
[This message has been edited by Big Cat (edited 07 December 2000).]
Just to fill you in on the history, all newly qualified commercial pilots who start work for the big companies on the north sea used to be able to fly as first officers without an instrument rating. The CAA have insisted that the new JAR requirement is enforced, this being that all first officers now have to be instrument qualified.
This means that direct entry to these positions is now only available to ex military pilots who are instrument qualified(most are)or individuals who have paid for the instrument training themselves.
There is only one school in the UK that has approval to use a single engined helicopter to train for the instrument rating. The CAA refuse to allow any other companies to provide this training. If a twin is used then there is no problem but an individual will find it completely unviable to pay for this as a career proposition. If you can get the queen to pay for it then your laughing.
[This message has been edited by Big Cat (edited 07 December 2000).]
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The aircraft at North Denes was (is) an IFR equipped 206B (converted from an A model) albeit an old one (G AVII) It was converted to full dual panel IFR in 1981. Many Bristow Co-pilots did their initial instrument ratings on it followed by a one flight multi engine upgrade with a CAA Examiner and then became the holders of a full Multi Engine IR.
It was a good system in its day, most of the training was conducted in house at company cost. It was much cheaper than a sim at the 206 DOC rate. There were some foreign students who paid top dollar for the training (or their employers did).
It was always expensive for a private individual, even in the early days. The requirement was 20 hours (minimum) on the 206 and 20 hours in the procedure trainer. Together with ground instruction, the whole process usually lasted around a month.
It was a good system in its day, most of the training was conducted in house at company cost. It was much cheaper than a sim at the 206 DOC rate. There were some foreign students who paid top dollar for the training (or their employers did).
It was always expensive for a private individual, even in the early days. The requirement was 20 hours (minimum) on the 206 and 20 hours in the procedure trainer. Together with ground instruction, the whole process usually lasted around a month.
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NR Fairy, leading edge :
Yes that was the aircraft I was refering to.
The requirements for the FAA IR(H) can be met using an R22 IFR trainer (The IR(A) can be done on a Cessna 152). This is an excellent training platform because the workload is so high in order keep within alt/asi/hdg limits as well as read approch plates, change frequencies etc.
If a US pilot with an FAA IR(A)(same standards as for the (H))can fly a US registered 747 into Heathrow then surely the CAA should be able to allow FAA IR(H) ratings to be used in the UK.
Being British though we have to pay for all the training to be done in a twin.(unless you go to one particular company!)
Yes that was the aircraft I was refering to.
The requirements for the FAA IR(H) can be met using an R22 IFR trainer (The IR(A) can be done on a Cessna 152). This is an excellent training platform because the workload is so high in order keep within alt/asi/hdg limits as well as read approch plates, change frequencies etc.
If a US pilot with an FAA IR(A)(same standards as for the (H))can fly a US registered 747 into Heathrow then surely the CAA should be able to allow FAA IR(H) ratings to be used in the UK.
Being British though we have to pay for all the training to be done in a twin.(unless you go to one particular company!)
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It is not a 'certain company' that is allowed to use a single engined aircraft for I/R training...... it is a particular aircraft that is allowed to be used.
From my understanding, 'Double India' is the only aircraft remaining that was granted IFR certification in the good old days when Single Engine IFR was considered acceptable. Other aircraft were lost by the wayside while G-AVII was patched up and kept going by Bristow and the CAA can not revoke its certification - Grandfather rights.
Bristow have had to make concessions such as putting in a 'Moving Map' GPS and a Stab' system but otherwise its fairly standard. Certianly I know several CAA examiners who are more than happy to fly it around in IMC so perhaps the CAA should rethink and bring the costs down for aspiring professional pilots ??
From my understanding, 'Double India' is the only aircraft remaining that was granted IFR certification in the good old days when Single Engine IFR was considered acceptable. Other aircraft were lost by the wayside while G-AVII was patched up and kept going by Bristow and the CAA can not revoke its certification - Grandfather rights.
Bristow have had to make concessions such as putting in a 'Moving Map' GPS and a Stab' system but otherwise its fairly standard. Certianly I know several CAA examiners who are more than happy to fly it around in IMC so perhaps the CAA should rethink and bring the costs down for aspiring professional pilots ??
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Only rational arguement based on fact should count.
Protectionism and dogmatic support of irrational systems does not do anyone any favours - does the 'oneenginedness' of a machine make it factually worse to fly on instruments? - surely it's actual reliability and complexity is more important.
I'd be surprised if the exmilitary pilots who benefit from this irrational approach really think it is a good idea - if they are honest.
America does not have a worse saftey record than UK - this must be really frustrating to the people who have shrunk the UK aviation industry to the point of death through the expensive burden of their 'pet theories'.
It didn't really help Rover (Austin, Morris, Humber, Leyland, MG, Cooper .. )etc to have a 'loyal and patriotic' following prepared to buy their rediculously substandard cars - it just delayed the need for reality - to the point of (near) death.
An irrationally more expensive and burdensome 'system' just shrinks our industry - doesn't really do anyone any good!
Have there been any problems from Double India being single engined? Is it a 'proven concept' yet?
Protectionism and dogmatic support of irrational systems does not do anyone any favours - does the 'oneenginedness' of a machine make it factually worse to fly on instruments? - surely it's actual reliability and complexity is more important.
I'd be surprised if the exmilitary pilots who benefit from this irrational approach really think it is a good idea - if they are honest.
America does not have a worse saftey record than UK - this must be really frustrating to the people who have shrunk the UK aviation industry to the point of death through the expensive burden of their 'pet theories'.
It didn't really help Rover (Austin, Morris, Humber, Leyland, MG, Cooper .. )etc to have a 'loyal and patriotic' following prepared to buy their rediculously substandard cars - it just delayed the need for reality - to the point of (near) death.
An irrationally more expensive and burdensome 'system' just shrinks our industry - doesn't really do anyone any good!
Have there been any problems from Double India being single engined? Is it a 'proven concept' yet?
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I suspect the reason that there are as yet no competitors in this niche market are less sinister than have been made out.
I may be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that 'II was specifically converted to be used as an instrument trainer rather than already being certified for IFR ( I don't think that was ever allowed in the UK, was it?). The raison d'etre being the considerably lower DOCs compared to either twin or even simulator time.
The a/c was also converted in an era when rotary instrument ratings were rare, and only required by the Captains of a/c flying IFR, co-pilots could get by with an IBC (unless using controlled airspace, IFR). So, the market for such an a/c was smaller than it is now.
The a/c has SFENA, GPS with map display (used to be a DECCA rolling map), standby ADI and twin inverters. Consequently, I believe the weight is rather more than standard and probably it's commercial viability for charter work is limited. Another reason why smaller companies may have elected tho avoid this arena.
The a/c is not cleared for unlimited IFR; it has to remain clear of built up area (hence the map) and the cloud base must be above certain limits (1000' I think, don't quote me).
I suspect that had other companies seen the implications of JAR OPS-3/FCL-2 a little earlier than they did, and thought through the costs, they too may have been able to introduce a similar a/c into the market.
Of course, it may all be a conspiracy by the CAA to stop competition and degrade our inustry, along with British Leyland, British Coal and Vickers shipyards, in which case I'll wash my mouth out with soap and water.
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Another day in paradise
I may be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that 'II was specifically converted to be used as an instrument trainer rather than already being certified for IFR ( I don't think that was ever allowed in the UK, was it?). The raison d'etre being the considerably lower DOCs compared to either twin or even simulator time.
The a/c was also converted in an era when rotary instrument ratings were rare, and only required by the Captains of a/c flying IFR, co-pilots could get by with an IBC (unless using controlled airspace, IFR). So, the market for such an a/c was smaller than it is now.
The a/c has SFENA, GPS with map display (used to be a DECCA rolling map), standby ADI and twin inverters. Consequently, I believe the weight is rather more than standard and probably it's commercial viability for charter work is limited. Another reason why smaller companies may have elected tho avoid this arena.
The a/c is not cleared for unlimited IFR; it has to remain clear of built up area (hence the map) and the cloud base must be above certain limits (1000' I think, don't quote me).
I suspect that had other companies seen the implications of JAR OPS-3/FCL-2 a little earlier than they did, and thought through the costs, they too may have been able to introduce a similar a/c into the market.
Of course, it may all be a conspiracy by the CAA to stop competition and degrade our inustry, along with British Leyland, British Coal and Vickers shipyards, in which case I'll wash my mouth out with soap and water.
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Another day in paradise
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The price for the Bristow IFR trainer (Bell 206) is +/- 550 £ / hr and 15 hrs of procedure trainer and all the required ground school is 2500 £ (30 hrs A/C and 15 hr procedure trainer is required for JAR plus about 2 hrs for the actual test).
Not cheap I hear you say but the instructors are very experienced and it will be cheaper than to do it in any twin-turbine helicopter.
About the grandfather rights: it has been a system used by the CAA on numerous occasions when they change the rules. It will have helped in this case that it was a big operator (Bristow) helicopter but that the way the CAA works.
I’ve did my initial IR on a R-22 in the States and this helped me to get a job with a UK company that then paid for my CAA IR (the CAA had given me credit for my FAA IR to the extend that I wasn’t required to do a set amount of hrs before I could take the test).
Not cheap I hear you say but the instructors are very experienced and it will be cheaper than to do it in any twin-turbine helicopter.
About the grandfather rights: it has been a system used by the CAA on numerous occasions when they change the rules. It will have helped in this case that it was a big operator (Bristow) helicopter but that the way the CAA works.
I’ve did my initial IR on a R-22 in the States and this helped me to get a job with a UK company that then paid for my CAA IR (the CAA had given me credit for my FAA IR to the extend that I wasn’t required to do a set amount of hrs before I could take the test).
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Rotorbike
Thanks for the link,as you say, short on specifics when it to costs. The old "tell us what you want and we'll tell you how much after we have tailored it to your needs" concept is still alive and well!! If you want to use the school, make sure you get an assessment early otherwise the costs will roll on and on as you "just need that extra couple of hours" before you are test ready.
Having said that, if it is GBP 550 per hour then it is good value becuse they were charging GBP 500 an hour in 1992.
212 man, I think that the aircraft was cleared IMC with a 1500' cloudbase for autrotation purposes although it could be used down to 1000' cloudbase if only in the local area.
Thanks for the link,as you say, short on specifics when it to costs. The old "tell us what you want and we'll tell you how much after we have tailored it to your needs" concept is still alive and well!! If you want to use the school, make sure you get an assessment early otherwise the costs will roll on and on as you "just need that extra couple of hours" before you are test ready.
Having said that, if it is GBP 550 per hour then it is good value becuse they were charging GBP 500 an hour in 1992.
212 man, I think that the aircraft was cleared IMC with a 1500' cloudbase for autrotation purposes although it could be used down to 1000' cloudbase if only in the local area.
