EH101 crash
Guest
Posts: n/a
Sorry PG, I should have been more specific. What I meant was that once on the water, the twin engine capabilities of the 101 were non existent in that they would not get the lumbering monster off the water, even if it was safe to do so. If you need more evidence of the dreadful inadequacies of its twin engine capability, then tune into the military section where the pilots who fly it have discussed this very topic...
------------------
TC
------------------
TC
Guest
Posts: n/a
1. Who builds the best helo gearboxes in the world? Westlands (tis true)
2. Given a choice of Westlands or Augusta who would you have design and build the gearbox for a new helicopter? (easy one)
3. Who designed and built the gearbox for the Mk1 EH101? AUGUSTA!
4. If you scale up and modify a Wessex gearbox what do you get? Augustas attempt at a modern gearbox for the EH101
5. If you put 3 big engines on a helo and connect them through a scaled up circa 1960's gearbox what happens? You seriously limit the usable power from the RR brutes.
6. Who has already designed the gearbox for the MK2 EH101 (if it happens)? Westlands
7. How much power can the Westlands gearbox handle? Everything the EH101 needs to fly like a lynx with good OEI performance.
2. Given a choice of Westlands or Augusta who would you have design and build the gearbox for a new helicopter? (easy one)
3. Who designed and built the gearbox for the Mk1 EH101? AUGUSTA!
4. If you scale up and modify a Wessex gearbox what do you get? Augustas attempt at a modern gearbox for the EH101
5. If you put 3 big engines on a helo and connect them through a scaled up circa 1960's gearbox what happens? You seriously limit the usable power from the RR brutes.
6. Who has already designed the gearbox for the MK2 EH101 (if it happens)? Westlands
7. How much power can the Westlands gearbox handle? Everything the EH101 needs to fly like a lynx with good OEI performance.
Guest
Posts: n/a
To: Grey Area
First of all, the EH-101 main gearbox is more closely related to the gearbox on the S-61 than on the Wessex (S-58). Although I have noted several potential defects in the transmission the defects were more in how Agusta engineering responded to my comments and not really the fault of the gear box.
As far as build standard is concerned, I have no point of comparison between Agusta and Westland. However I will say this. Agusta builds under license Bell Helicopters, Sikorsky helicopters, Boeing helicopters and Hughes helicopters. They not only build the airframes but they build from scratch the dynamic systems and the power train. They have their own casting facilities and they make their own gears.
From my observers point of view the Agusta build standard for all of the various airframes, dynamic systems and power train systems was much higher than the firms that originally designed the helicopters.
Westland and Agusta both built the S-61 yet the US Navy went to Agusta for spares for their transmissions and dynamic components and not to Westland. Please don't say anything about the lowest bidder.
------------------
The Cat
First of all, the EH-101 main gearbox is more closely related to the gearbox on the S-61 than on the Wessex (S-58). Although I have noted several potential defects in the transmission the defects were more in how Agusta engineering responded to my comments and not really the fault of the gear box.
As far as build standard is concerned, I have no point of comparison between Agusta and Westland. However I will say this. Agusta builds under license Bell Helicopters, Sikorsky helicopters, Boeing helicopters and Hughes helicopters. They not only build the airframes but they build from scratch the dynamic systems and the power train. They have their own casting facilities and they make their own gears.
From my observers point of view the Agusta build standard for all of the various airframes, dynamic systems and power train systems was much higher than the firms that originally designed the helicopters.
Westland and Agusta both built the S-61 yet the US Navy went to Agusta for spares for their transmissions and dynamic components and not to Westland. Please don't say anything about the lowest bidder.
------------------
The Cat
Guest
Posts: n/a
To TC, thank you for your reply.But I still believe that you would be very surprised of what the EH101 can do on two engines.
To all of you, you speak a lot about the aircraft, but what do you really know about it? Apart from hearsay, what experience do you have? Since most of you write under a "nom de plume", it seems very easy for anybody to make comments on a subject they know very little about.
To all of you, you speak a lot about the aircraft, but what do you really know about it? Apart from hearsay, what experience do you have? Since most of you write under a "nom de plume", it seems very easy for anybody to make comments on a subject they know very little about.
Guest
Posts: n/a
To: Pat Gerard
The original design concept was to fly on two engines and use the third as a spare. When on a antisubmarine patrol that required a lot of hovering or on a SAR pickup they would start the third engine. It was because of the two engine performance that the Italian Navy wanted the EH-101 with only two engines. That was when they were going to use the T-700 as opposed to the RR engines although I don't know what difference that would make other than maybe the RR engines put out more power.
------------------
The Cat
The original design concept was to fly on two engines and use the third as a spare. When on a antisubmarine patrol that required a lot of hovering or on a SAR pickup they would start the third engine. It was because of the two engine performance that the Italian Navy wanted the EH-101 with only two engines. That was when they were going to use the T-700 as opposed to the RR engines although I don't know what difference that would make other than maybe the RR engines put out more power.
------------------
The Cat
Guest
Posts: n/a
Pat, did u go to the 'military' board? have you read what the merlin pilots are saying about their a/c? I am closer than you think to the 101 project.
PS Lu's credentials are impressive, to say the least. I would suggest he might be in a position to speak with authority.....check him out!
You'll be flying them soon, then you can report first hand!!!
------------------
TC
PS Lu's credentials are impressive, to say the least. I would suggest he might be in a position to speak with authority.....check him out!
You'll be flying them soon, then you can report first hand!!!
------------------
TC
Guest
Posts: n/a
If we are going to compare closeness to the Merlin project then I am closer than you all think!
I know exactly what caused the crash in Scotland and what corrective action is required to prevent this from happening again. The aircraft was not at fault, only the procedures used to clear the aircraft for flight.
This is a good helicopter, a world beater and as professionals we should all support this project as much as possible.
There have been many occasions during the development of the EH101 where many aircraft would of crashed but the EH101 allowed the crews to keep control and save the crew and the aircraft. A true indication of the safety of the aircraft in question!!
I agree with Pat Gerard, what do you guys know about it and we know more than most!!
Ask the questions and we will provide the answers as much a possible but please do not condem one of the best helicopters ever designed and do not condem the jobs of 4000 of the people who are employed to make the EH101!!
And finally.....Merry Christmas to all you Sceptics!!!!
I know exactly what caused the crash in Scotland and what corrective action is required to prevent this from happening again. The aircraft was not at fault, only the procedures used to clear the aircraft for flight.
This is a good helicopter, a world beater and as professionals we should all support this project as much as possible.
There have been many occasions during the development of the EH101 where many aircraft would of crashed but the EH101 allowed the crews to keep control and save the crew and the aircraft. A true indication of the safety of the aircraft in question!!
I agree with Pat Gerard, what do you guys know about it and we know more than most!!
Ask the questions and we will provide the answers as much a possible but please do not condem one of the best helicopters ever designed and do not condem the jobs of 4000 of the people who are employed to make the EH101!!
And finally.....Merry Christmas to all you Sceptics!!!!
Guest
Posts: n/a
To Lu Zuckerman and Thomas Coupling
Thanks for your reply.I am not an engineer and I did not take part in the design of the EH101. However, I was part of the team assigned to the development ( M and RE, Intensive Flying Development Program), and as such I flew the a/c for nearly 1000Hrs;
During the program, we flew a total of nearly 6000 hours;I am not too sure of what I would be authorised to say. Certainly I had to experience the twin engine capability of the 101 and it performed extremely well; Also, I do not know many aircraft able to HOGE at 6000ft, and then climb vertically from the hover at 1000fpm when a little extra torque is applied. My colleagues on the team could also have a lot to say about the a/c.
Why not go along with Chin Chin and give Westland some support;
Thanks for your reply.I am not an engineer and I did not take part in the design of the EH101. However, I was part of the team assigned to the development ( M and RE, Intensive Flying Development Program), and as such I flew the a/c for nearly 1000Hrs;
During the program, we flew a total of nearly 6000 hours;I am not too sure of what I would be authorised to say. Certainly I had to experience the twin engine capability of the 101 and it performed extremely well; Also, I do not know many aircraft able to HOGE at 6000ft, and then climb vertically from the hover at 1000fpm when a little extra torque is applied. My colleagues on the team could also have a lot to say about the a/c.
Why not go along with Chin Chin and give Westland some support;
Guest
Posts: n/a
I think this project has achieved its aim...1000's of jobs for the boys, so the bean counters at Whitehall can't slice a further tranche off the services quite as easily as the odd frigate / squadron / airbase.
A job well done I'd say chaps...keep the wolf from the door for another 10 years, what??
------------------
TC
A job well done I'd say chaps...keep the wolf from the door for another 10 years, what??
------------------
TC
Guest
Posts: n/a
To Pat,
The cause of the accident will come out pretty soon and this is not the location for me to explain it anyway.
Why don't you ask the great helicopter accident investigators themselves namely the Sunday Express!!
I take it you have many hours in PP8 and PP9?
Now that M&MRE has finished what are you doing?
Are Bristows going to buy the EH101 for the Rigs?
The cause of the accident will come out pretty soon and this is not the location for me to explain it anyway.
Why don't you ask the great helicopter accident investigators themselves namely the Sunday Express!!
I take it you have many hours in PP8 and PP9?
Now that M&MRE has finished what are you doing?
Are Bristows going to buy the EH101 for the Rigs?
Guest
Posts: n/a
don't like to rain on your parade but there are 3 problems with this incident.
1) Cause of initial fire why did fire suppression not work.
2) Subsequent loss of control.
3) Non deployment of emergency flotation gear.
I can understand a maintenance problem possibly explaining 1 but 2 sounds like a design issue.
1) Cause of initial fire why did fire suppression not work.
2) Subsequent loss of control.
3) Non deployment of emergency flotation gear.
I can understand a maintenance problem possibly explaining 1 but 2 sounds like a design issue.
Guest
Posts: n/a
To Chin Chin
Just short of 1000 0n PP8 and PP9.
Back now flying 332L in the North sea.Makes a change from "dip and dash" exercises.
As for Bristow buying the 101....????????
Probably depends on the price tag. In any case, I would assume the oil companies would decide. But I would be very happy to fly it over the North Sea, or indeed anywhere else in the world.As long as I can have the same seats in the production a/c as we had in PP.
To Widgeon
Do you know where the fire was? Do you know what caused the loss of control?
Just short of 1000 0n PP8 and PP9.
Back now flying 332L in the North sea.Makes a change from "dip and dash" exercises.
As for Bristow buying the 101....????????
Probably depends on the price tag. In any case, I would assume the oil companies would decide. But I would be very happy to fly it over the North Sea, or indeed anywhere else in the world.As long as I can have the same seats in the production a/c as we had in PP.
To Widgeon
Do you know where the fire was? Do you know what caused the loss of control?
Guest
Posts: n/a
No Pat I do not know what caused the fire ( or even if there was a fire ) or subsequent loss of control or indeed why the floats did not deploy.
I am not familiar enough with the fire suppression systems or flight controls routing to even make an educated guess as to the chain of events that caused the aircraft to end up the wrong way up in the drink.
Having said that I still find it unlikely that 3 seperate events are all due to maintenance errors but it is not impossible .
So I will reserve judgement until the MOD publish their in depth report to the public or hell freezes over , whichever comes first and my bet would be on the latter.
I am not familiar enough with the fire suppression systems or flight controls routing to even make an educated guess as to the chain of events that caused the aircraft to end up the wrong way up in the drink.
Having said that I still find it unlikely that 3 seperate events are all due to maintenance errors but it is not impossible .
So I will reserve judgement until the MOD publish their in depth report to the public or hell freezes over , whichever comes first and my bet would be on the latter.
Guest
Posts: n/a
OK folks, here's how it looks, the latest EH101 dunking was caused by a rotorbrake fire of such intensity that it required ditching.
The rotorbrake came on in flight hydraulically and was uncommanded despite being hydraulically disabled after an Italian disaster to a pre-production model.
Interlocks with the Sonar winch system which uses the same hydraulic system failed and the R/B came on in flight.
A hideous amount of burning in a very short time, which torched the gearbox casings(what are the front gearbox casings made of?) made the pilot ditch[and so say all of us].
Guess what. The a/c was trialling Sonar at the time.........
Gerard and chinchin you are probably ahead of me but are strapped to reply, if I have made any errors do not hesitate to post
4R
The rotorbrake came on in flight hydraulically and was uncommanded despite being hydraulically disabled after an Italian disaster to a pre-production model.
Interlocks with the Sonar winch system which uses the same hydraulic system failed and the R/B came on in flight.
A hideous amount of burning in a very short time, which torched the gearbox casings(what are the front gearbox casings made of?) made the pilot ditch[and so say all of us].
Guess what. The a/c was trialling Sonar at the time.........
Gerard and chinchin you are probably ahead of me but are strapped to reply, if I have made any errors do not hesitate to post
4R
Guest
Posts: n/a
Ah, maxvne, what an eloquent, pertinent and qualified comment?
Your identity is unknown, Pat however has directly identified himself and the background to his comment's on the EH-101 and it's systems.
He also previously asked a direct question regarding the basis of the information related to some of the comments on this site regarding this accident - and they proved unfounded.
I disagree entirely with your comments on Pat's ability to discuss the capabilities and performance, not only of the EH-101, but all aspects of operational helicopter flying.
Your comment is offensive, completely inappropriate and totally indefensible.
Let us all witness your reaction to this, before we rush to judgement on YOU and your actions.
Your identity is unknown, Pat however has directly identified himself and the background to his comment's on the EH-101 and it's systems.
He also previously asked a direct question regarding the basis of the information related to some of the comments on this site regarding this accident - and they proved unfounded.
I disagree entirely with your comments on Pat's ability to discuss the capabilities and performance, not only of the EH-101, but all aspects of operational helicopter flying.
Your comment is offensive, completely inappropriate and totally indefensible.
Let us all witness your reaction to this, before we rush to judgement on YOU and your actions.