BRISTOW/SCOTIA MANAGEMENT ARE U LISTENING????
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Thought I would resurrect this one from the ashes.To let you all know, on both sides of the airfield there have been 10 resignations in the last month alone. Not all of those are fixed wing bound.
May be someone will sit-up and pay attention soon. (NOT!).
[This message has been edited by UNLOB (edited 18 December 2000).]
May be someone will sit-up and pay attention soon. (NOT!).
[This message has been edited by UNLOB (edited 18 December 2000).]
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To 4Rvibes,changewind,
I certainly agree with your comments.There is a lot of lethargy around.
Also, the last "A" in BALPA stands for "Association", not "Union". The fact is, I do not see much union or unity in our business. Most of us are very selfish and individualistic. Until we are completly united, not much is going to happen.
TO Houdini,
I do not know who you are, but I would not swap my paycheque for yours. I certainly do not think my company would call me "cheap import".
I certainly agree with your comments.There is a lot of lethargy around.
Also, the last "A" in BALPA stands for "Association", not "Union". The fact is, I do not see much union or unity in our business. Most of us are very selfish and individualistic. Until we are completly united, not much is going to happen.
TO Houdini,
I do not know who you are, but I would not swap my paycheque for yours. I certainly do not think my company would call me "cheap import".
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Monsieur Pat
You shouldn't be so sensitive about being an import since you blokes are all meant to be good little EU citizens now with reciprocal rights accross Europe.
What is being experienced on the North Sea with resignations by the truckload is a symptom of the exploitation which has been endemic in the offshore helicopter industry for many years now. Since the North Sea pilots have failed to organise properly, you really only have yourselves to blame for your poor wages and conditions.
By a peculiar quirk, it seems that it may be those same forces of the capitalist market which may result in a short supply and therefore an improvement in your pay and conditions.
I hope it happens for you all, but if you had all been united, you could have had an increase already and not still be waiting for Bristow and Scotia to react to a pilot shortage coupled with a mild increase in levels of activity. By the time you get your pay rise, it may already be time for the operators to start thinking layoffs again. Which way is the oil price going this week?
Lack of unity, general lethargy and sefishness will never benefit the North Sea pilots as a group, remember, the operators will only pay you more when they are desparate. The baseball bat can change hands very quickly so enjoy it for the brief time you might get to hold it.
With your e-mail address stated as it is, are you posting as one of the boys or on behalf of Bristow management??
You shouldn't be so sensitive about being an import since you blokes are all meant to be good little EU citizens now with reciprocal rights accross Europe.
What is being experienced on the North Sea with resignations by the truckload is a symptom of the exploitation which has been endemic in the offshore helicopter industry for many years now. Since the North Sea pilots have failed to organise properly, you really only have yourselves to blame for your poor wages and conditions.
By a peculiar quirk, it seems that it may be those same forces of the capitalist market which may result in a short supply and therefore an improvement in your pay and conditions.
I hope it happens for you all, but if you had all been united, you could have had an increase already and not still be waiting for Bristow and Scotia to react to a pilot shortage coupled with a mild increase in levels of activity. By the time you get your pay rise, it may already be time for the operators to start thinking layoffs again. Which way is the oil price going this week?
Lack of unity, general lethargy and sefishness will never benefit the North Sea pilots as a group, remember, the operators will only pay you more when they are desparate. The baseball bat can change hands very quickly so enjoy it for the brief time you might get to hold it.
With your e-mail address stated as it is, are you posting as one of the boys or on behalf of Bristow management??
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To Leading Edge
A) There must have been a translation error somewhere. I was not sensitive about being an import. I only wanted to state that imports were not always cheap. Having worked for Bristow a long time, and in the North sea for 18 years, I do not consider myself as "cheap foreign labour".
B)If you read my previous thread, you can see that I fully agree with you on the fact that North Sea pilots can not organise themselves. This is what I meant about unity. There is none. The first line of your last paragraph says what I meant.
C) I am not Bristow management. Like every employee, I can have an e-mail address. I have other e-mail addresses, but the pprune registration form only took one. Lastly, right or wrong, I have my opinions and certainly not afraid to state them under my name. Why do everybody on this forum have to write under the cover of anonymity. If we want to say that management is out of touch , then let's say it.
Anyway, I always like a good argument and a chat.
Have a very merry Christmas and a happy new year for 2001. Safe flying.
Patrick
A) There must have been a translation error somewhere. I was not sensitive about being an import. I only wanted to state that imports were not always cheap. Having worked for Bristow a long time, and in the North sea for 18 years, I do not consider myself as "cheap foreign labour".
B)If you read my previous thread, you can see that I fully agree with you on the fact that North Sea pilots can not organise themselves. This is what I meant about unity. There is none. The first line of your last paragraph says what I meant.
C) I am not Bristow management. Like every employee, I can have an e-mail address. I have other e-mail addresses, but the pprune registration form only took one. Lastly, right or wrong, I have my opinions and certainly not afraid to state them under my name. Why do everybody on this forum have to write under the cover of anonymity. If we want to say that management is out of touch , then let's say it.
Anyway, I always like a good argument and a chat.
Have a very merry Christmas and a happy new year for 2001. Safe flying.
Patrick
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Monsieur Pat
I applaud you for having the guts to use your own name, I will continue with my anonymity (as far as it goes) for fear of management retribution. I was merely concerned that you were using a Bristow
e-mail address and that you may have been a management agent in the cleverest disguise, ie none!!! I would really like to see the North Sea Pilots get the pay they deserve but unfortunately they are so disjointed and there are so many who are selfish that it will only happen if the market dictates because of a shortage.
Personally, I wouldn't work there again for any money that the operators would pay. Aberdeen has to be one of the most miserable places on earth with grey everything, including grey overweight women!!!
I applaud you for having the guts to use your own name, I will continue with my anonymity (as far as it goes) for fear of management retribution. I was merely concerned that you were using a Bristow
e-mail address and that you may have been a management agent in the cleverest disguise, ie none!!! I would really like to see the North Sea Pilots get the pay they deserve but unfortunately they are so disjointed and there are so many who are selfish that it will only happen if the market dictates because of a shortage.
Personally, I wouldn't work there again for any money that the operators would pay. Aberdeen has to be one of the most miserable places on earth with grey everything, including grey overweight women!!!
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Leading Edge,
I have lived in Aberdeen for some time now. I think Aberdeen is a great place with plenty of opportunites available for those who wish to take them. I found your remarks about the city unfair and somewhat cruel.
Since then I have discovered that you are from Australia and so completely forgive you. It must be very difficult coming from a country with no culture for you to be able to appreciate a country with one.
Night Sun
I have lived in Aberdeen for some time now. I think Aberdeen is a great place with plenty of opportunites available for those who wish to take them. I found your remarks about the city unfair and somewhat cruel.
Since then I have discovered that you are from Australia and so completely forgive you. It must be very difficult coming from a country with no culture for you to be able to appreciate a country with one.
Night Sun
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Leading Edge;
I agree with you! Aberdeen definately has to be the dullest, greyest place on earth! The only saving grace is it's proximity to the 'Whiskey Trail'
Night Sun;
Don't be so serious! And what's this nonsense about culture! Being of Scottish heritage myself, I resent that remark! Aarrh! Ye canee take the breeks off a heelinman! Where ere ye be, let yer wind gey free!
Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year!
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 27 December 2000).]
I agree with you! Aberdeen definately has to be the dullest, greyest place on earth! The only saving grace is it's proximity to the 'Whiskey Trail'
Night Sun;
Don't be so serious! And what's this nonsense about culture! Being of Scottish heritage myself, I resent that remark! Aarrh! Ye canee take the breeks off a heelinman! Where ere ye be, let yer wind gey free!
Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year!
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 27 December 2000).]
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Night Sun
I did not mean to touch a raw nerve but I would find it difficult to change my views about the Granite City and the Granite Women. Having lived there, it is not an experience I would chose to repeat.
Have you been to Australia? If not, then perhaps you might like to visit and you might find that we have a very vibrant "new" culture which generally appeals to most people who visit or are fortunate enough to live here.
I do not want to get into a country vs country debate, that is not the purpose of this thread.
The fact remains that Bristow and Scotia do not pay their pilots enough for the job that they do. Most of the pilots are not indigenous to Aberdeen and deserve an additional premium for having to live there because the cost of living is high.
It is my belief, whether or not one likes living in Aberdeen, that the NS operators will have to raise their pay levels and improve conditions if they want to recruit the best pilots, otherwise they will all either go plank wing or will go for other helicopter jobs which will allow them to live where they want and to have some respect from their employers.
I did not mean to touch a raw nerve but I would find it difficult to change my views about the Granite City and the Granite Women. Having lived there, it is not an experience I would chose to repeat.
Have you been to Australia? If not, then perhaps you might like to visit and you might find that we have a very vibrant "new" culture which generally appeals to most people who visit or are fortunate enough to live here.
I do not want to get into a country vs country debate, that is not the purpose of this thread.
The fact remains that Bristow and Scotia do not pay their pilots enough for the job that they do. Most of the pilots are not indigenous to Aberdeen and deserve an additional premium for having to live there because the cost of living is high.
It is my belief, whether or not one likes living in Aberdeen, that the NS operators will have to raise their pay levels and improve conditions if they want to recruit the best pilots, otherwise they will all either go plank wing or will go for other helicopter jobs which will allow them to live where they want and to have some respect from their employers.
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Leading Edge and Offshore Igor,
If you slag off a place where people live and like you shouldn't be surprised that there are others who will criticise you for it. You both may have found Aberdeen lacking but that doesn't give you a cart blanche on opinions of the city. As I have said I like Aberdeen and think it's a great place but you don't. Fine.
I have been to both your countries and like them very much, my reply to Leading Edge was because I found his comment to be one sided and somewhat bigoted. What is interesting is that Leading Edges reply to my criticism of his country was almost exactly the same as mine was of his.
So, the point is, you may not like a place that others do. That doesn't give you the right to sit back and say your piece without a reply. Just as I accept your criticism of Aberdeen you should accept my rebuttal. As Offshoreigor has pointed out to me in the past, "it's a bulletin board and we are all entitled to an opinion". So that was mine.
As for, "Ye canee take the breeks off a heelinman! Where ere ye be, let yer wind gey free!", I was born and have lived in Scotland all my life, my parents were Scottish etc. etc... and I can honesty say - Offshoreigor I haven't a f*%king clue what you are talking about! I think you may have been watching too many Hollywood movies!
Have a great Hogmanay,
Night Sun.
If you slag off a place where people live and like you shouldn't be surprised that there are others who will criticise you for it. You both may have found Aberdeen lacking but that doesn't give you a cart blanche on opinions of the city. As I have said I like Aberdeen and think it's a great place but you don't. Fine.
I have been to both your countries and like them very much, my reply to Leading Edge was because I found his comment to be one sided and somewhat bigoted. What is interesting is that Leading Edges reply to my criticism of his country was almost exactly the same as mine was of his.
So, the point is, you may not like a place that others do. That doesn't give you the right to sit back and say your piece without a reply. Just as I accept your criticism of Aberdeen you should accept my rebuttal. As Offshoreigor has pointed out to me in the past, "it's a bulletin board and we are all entitled to an opinion". So that was mine.
As for, "Ye canee take the breeks off a heelinman! Where ere ye be, let yer wind gey free!", I was born and have lived in Scotland all my life, my parents were Scottish etc. etc... and I can honesty say - Offshoreigor I haven't a f*%king clue what you are talking about! I think you may have been watching too many Hollywood movies!
Have a great Hogmanay,
Night Sun.
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Night Sun;
Oh contraire!!! My Father is from Airdrie and my Mother is from Edinburgh. And as anyone knows those were quotes from 'The Burns'!
I may be what you consider to be a 'Snap frozen Yank' but I know my heritage.
I never said I didn't like Aberdeen, only that it was cold and grey. Unless you're colour blind or an eskimo, then both these facts, as facts they are, should be quite apparent. I actually enjoy the time in Aberdeen when I have been there for the Sim training at the big red Humming Bird, Scotia (BIH when I was there last).
As a matter of fact, I'm quite proud of my Scottish heritage. I was brought up to believe there were only two types of people in the world, Scotsman and those who wished they were.
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
Oh contraire!!! My Father is from Airdrie and my Mother is from Edinburgh. And as anyone knows those were quotes from 'The Burns'!
I may be what you consider to be a 'Snap frozen Yank' but I know my heritage.
I never said I didn't like Aberdeen, only that it was cold and grey. Unless you're colour blind or an eskimo, then both these facts, as facts they are, should be quite apparent. I actually enjoy the time in Aberdeen when I have been there for the Sim training at the big red Humming Bird, Scotia (BIH when I was there last).
As a matter of fact, I'm quite proud of my Scottish heritage. I was brought up to believe there were only two types of people in the world, Scotsman and those who wished they were.
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
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OK, so now you're saying you like the place and enjoy your time here despite the fact that earlier you agreed with Leading Edges remark that:-
"Aberdeen has to be one of the most miserable places on earth with grey everything, including grey overweight women!!!".
You said:- "I agree with you! Aberdeen definitely has to be the dullest, greyest place on earth!"
You're not really the most consistent contributor to PPRUNE are you?
Night Sun
"Aberdeen has to be one of the most miserable places on earth with grey everything, including grey overweight women!!!".
You said:- "I agree with you! Aberdeen definitely has to be the dullest, greyest place on earth!"
You're not really the most consistent contributor to PPRUNE are you?
Night Sun
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Listening to you guys is really starting to depress me. I have spent the last 3 years working for a service company offshore in places that make the North Sea look like a summer camp(try Ekhabi jack-up, offshore Sakhalin Island,East Siberia)in order to save enough cash to finance a JAA CPL(H)course. The plan being to perhaps do what you guys are doing one day.Is it really that bad, or do you guys just like to whinge? at least you have a job,I've just found out that even when I have my CPL, I cannot apply for any jobs, as I need a further 50 Hrs PIC. Are you saying I should'nt have bothered?
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At risk of having my head bitten off.... aren't we starting to wander off the thread somewhat??? I came online today for the first time since the 22nd and was pleased to see this thread at the top of the pile. 'Ah haaaa', (I thought) ' fresh input, maybe something of interest'. But no, instead there is a transworld slanging match going on about the virtues (or otherwise, depending on one's POV)of Aberdeen.
Surely, the intention of UNLOB's original posting was to present a forum in which management both sides of 16/34 could gain an insight into what the people at the coalface were upset about.
I may be wrong (and I've no doubt someone will confirm that I am) but I suspect the average manager has given up reading this thread by now and a potential route for intelligent, anonymous feedback has been lost.
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If it ain't broke.........
Surely, the intention of UNLOB's original posting was to present a forum in which management both sides of 16/34 could gain an insight into what the people at the coalface were upset about.
I may be wrong (and I've no doubt someone will confirm that I am) but I suspect the average manager has given up reading this thread by now and a potential route for intelligent, anonymous feedback has been lost.
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If it ain't broke.........
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I agree with Taf that we are losing the point although I inadvertantly seemed to start the problem by saying something bad about Aberdeen. What I think of Aberdeen is not relevant anyway.
My point was not to create a "Don't go to Aberdeen" advertisement but to acknowledge that not everybody is a native Scot and so moves there for work only. For that, they should be adequately compensated because of additional travel to and from other parts of the UK, the higher cost of living etc.
If the Operators pay what the job deserves, and a proper premium for Aberdeen then things in the industry would come a long way and some of the people who may otherwise go fixed wing may be attracted to a job which has, so far, not reached it's proper commercial worth within industrialised society. The fact remains, that the North Sea Helicopter pilot, as well as helicopter pilots generally are mostly underpaid and often undervalued by their respective employers and industry as a whole.
This cannot be changed by people acting independently or selfishly. Market forces may help a bit but eventually, pilots will have to be heard as a collective group.
My point was not to create a "Don't go to Aberdeen" advertisement but to acknowledge that not everybody is a native Scot and so moves there for work only. For that, they should be adequately compensated because of additional travel to and from other parts of the UK, the higher cost of living etc.
If the Operators pay what the job deserves, and a proper premium for Aberdeen then things in the industry would come a long way and some of the people who may otherwise go fixed wing may be attracted to a job which has, so far, not reached it's proper commercial worth within industrialised society. The fact remains, that the North Sea Helicopter pilot, as well as helicopter pilots generally are mostly underpaid and often undervalued by their respective employers and industry as a whole.
This cannot be changed by people acting independently or selfishly. Market forces may help a bit but eventually, pilots will have to be heard as a collective group.
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OK, I will not mention Aberdeen again after this post but Leading Edge if what you think about Aberdeen is not relevant to this thread then why comment on the city in the first place? Surely you must have known that saying what you did about it was going to cause a reaction. Anyway.. I love the place and so I move on! I agree totally with the rest of your message.
New-Boy, life on the North Sea is not that bad and I actually very much enjoy the job and have no plans to go fixed wing. The trouble is is that the job used to be a lot a better and what you witness here on PPRUNE are pilots complaining at the gradual erosion of pay and conditions. In real terms we are paid less now than we were 10 years ago.
This was brought about by the oil slump and the inability of the management of the helicopter companies to deal with it properly which lead to undercutting each other to get work. I believe that both UK companies have contracts where they are not making any money. There has been no positive motivation or feedback from the management to the work force for a long long time. Everything now is cut, cut, cut. Hopefully over time things will improve and the management will suddenly ask themselves why all of a sudden they don't have many pilots left. (Another 3 gone recently). These are the sort of issues that tend to make it's way here because they are closest to people's hearts. I suppose I comment because I want the job to be the same as it was when I joined or better. I stay because I still enjoy it, fixed wing is not for me and hopefully through BALPA things will start to look more positive again.
Rotorheads is a bit of a whinging board and I agree that I contribute to that! Unfortunately people on it, myself included, don't put enough positive comments or thoughts on it and we should all make an effort to change that.
Taff Missed - point taken but he started it! <Sucks thumb and stamps feet>.
Night Sun
New-Boy, life on the North Sea is not that bad and I actually very much enjoy the job and have no plans to go fixed wing. The trouble is is that the job used to be a lot a better and what you witness here on PPRUNE are pilots complaining at the gradual erosion of pay and conditions. In real terms we are paid less now than we were 10 years ago.
This was brought about by the oil slump and the inability of the management of the helicopter companies to deal with it properly which lead to undercutting each other to get work. I believe that both UK companies have contracts where they are not making any money. There has been no positive motivation or feedback from the management to the work force for a long long time. Everything now is cut, cut, cut. Hopefully over time things will improve and the management will suddenly ask themselves why all of a sudden they don't have many pilots left. (Another 3 gone recently). These are the sort of issues that tend to make it's way here because they are closest to people's hearts. I suppose I comment because I want the job to be the same as it was when I joined or better. I stay because I still enjoy it, fixed wing is not for me and hopefully through BALPA things will start to look more positive again.
Rotorheads is a bit of a whinging board and I agree that I contribute to that! Unfortunately people on it, myself included, don't put enough positive comments or thoughts on it and we should all make an effort to change that.
Taff Missed - point taken but he started it! <Sucks thumb and stamps feet>.
Night Sun
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I've been reading this thread with a degree of nostalgia , I left the N.Sea in 79 , and went FW in 89. Boy , things have'nt changed much!!
We (I include myself here) always were strong on whingeing and weak on doing anything about it , and I earn less now than I did 25 years ago(adjusted for the usual).Don't confuse the oil-support industry with airlines-or at least compare it to charter ~only airlines. Oh , and Bristow Management never did listen.
Have a safe 2001 guys.
We (I include myself here) always were strong on whingeing and weak on doing anything about it , and I earn less now than I did 25 years ago(adjusted for the usual).Don't confuse the oil-support industry with airlines-or at least compare it to charter ~only airlines. Oh , and Bristow Management never did listen.
Have a safe 2001 guys.
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Just been reading this thread and thought I'd throw in my piece for what its worth. I left Bristow's a year and a half ago having flown eight and a half years for them in all kind of roles, I loved every minute of it and it was a hard choice I made to leave. I did leave becuase of a lack of precieved future, I think I was right. I'd hate to be in my mid forties with a family hoping I'm notgoing to be the one to be made redundant this time round. As for pay I earn more now as a year two first officer than I did as a year three captain with Bristow's and there's the very real prospect of command within a year, the lifestyle is far superior to that enjoyed in Aberdeen although if I'm honest the flying itself can be a little dull, all in all the fixed wing world has a lot to offer more so I'd say than the north sea, but hey that's just my opinion.
