BRISTOW/SCOTIA MANAGEMENT ARE U LISTENING????
Guest
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Re: Countdown
Sir;
I don't know when it became an issue to criticize what you read, but obviously I have struck a nerve. Where I grew up, people observed some very basic principles, as follows:
1. A person who truly follows his convictions does not fear criticism;
2. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion;
3. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
4. If your talking, your not listening, if you not listening, your not learning.
5. Never, I say Never! fly the "A" model of anything!
With these points in mind, I would like you to consider the fact that it was you who introduced the subject. You have to realize that when you post on a bulletin board, you are going to illicit opinions.
I have nothing against you personally, but your concept does not wash with me or anyone else who tries to earn a living in this industry.
As for your comments on cost of living, it's all relative. You obviously sleep in your own bed every night, tucking in the kiddies and snuggling with the wife. You may have to pay what you consider to be outlandish rent or mortgage fees, as well as taxes.
I, on the other hand cannot afford the luxury of staying home, as for most of us in North America, we have to pay about 60% of our earnings in taxes for the priviledge of working there.
On the issue of raises, what does that mean? If you look at Finance 101, you would know that a raise is defined as any income increase in excess of the current inflation and cost of living rate. If thats the case then I haven't had a raise in 20 years!
On the topic of TI (Time In) 6 years, wow. I'm impressed. Tell me about it when you've been doing it for 20 and maybe you will have matured enough to respond to critcism in a mature manner.
In case your interested, I'm not wet behind the ears. I learned to fly on S-61's in Halifax (the duty fog bank) 20 years ago and have since filled roles in Medevac and most exclusively on S-61/S-76/BH212 offshore in every scum bucket place for WX on earth. I think I know of what I speak!
As for concluding, I think your rethoric speaks for itself.
OffshorIgor
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 07 November 2000).]
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 07 November 2000).]
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 07 November 2000).]
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 08 November 2000).]
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 17 November 2000).]
Sir;
I don't know when it became an issue to criticize what you read, but obviously I have struck a nerve. Where I grew up, people observed some very basic principles, as follows:
1. A person who truly follows his convictions does not fear criticism;
2. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion;
3. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
4. If your talking, your not listening, if you not listening, your not learning.
5. Never, I say Never! fly the "A" model of anything!
With these points in mind, I would like you to consider the fact that it was you who introduced the subject. You have to realize that when you post on a bulletin board, you are going to illicit opinions.
I have nothing against you personally, but your concept does not wash with me or anyone else who tries to earn a living in this industry.
As for your comments on cost of living, it's all relative. You obviously sleep in your own bed every night, tucking in the kiddies and snuggling with the wife. You may have to pay what you consider to be outlandish rent or mortgage fees, as well as taxes.
I, on the other hand cannot afford the luxury of staying home, as for most of us in North America, we have to pay about 60% of our earnings in taxes for the priviledge of working there.
On the issue of raises, what does that mean? If you look at Finance 101, you would know that a raise is defined as any income increase in excess of the current inflation and cost of living rate. If thats the case then I haven't had a raise in 20 years!
On the topic of TI (Time In) 6 years, wow. I'm impressed. Tell me about it when you've been doing it for 20 and maybe you will have matured enough to respond to critcism in a mature manner.
In case your interested, I'm not wet behind the ears. I learned to fly on S-61's in Halifax (the duty fog bank) 20 years ago and have since filled roles in Medevac and most exclusively on S-61/S-76/BH212 offshore in every scum bucket place for WX on earth. I think I know of what I speak!
As for concluding, I think your rethoric speaks for itself.
OffshorIgor
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 07 November 2000).]
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 07 November 2000).]
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 07 November 2000).]
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 08 November 2000).]
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 17 November 2000).]
Guest
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Hey, Come on, here we go again, divide and conquer. If we cannot even discuss opinions in a civil manner how can we expect to raise any serious issues.
For Offshore the conditions in Aberdeen are near impossible, everybody, and I mean everybody is being asked to go beyond reasonable limits, many pilots are on their annual limit, new boys who's licences are not even dry yet are doing 80 hrs per month, yet still flights are being lost. Yes we can all work hard for a time but this is relentless and no sign of it easing up. As I said earlier if there was a management plan to improve things it would be great to know so that we can see some light at the end of the tunnel, as it is people are getting fed up and many are leaving or actively looking for other jobs. Not just the usual drift to fixed wing but other rotary and non aviation work. A sad reflection on peoples hopes for long term work in the North Sea.
There are rumours afoot that local recruiting cannot supply enough people for the industry and attempts are being made to bring in people from the far east! I am in no way against the use of other nationals if that is the only way but it makes me sad that this has to be done because the industry is driving good people away.
For Offshore the conditions in Aberdeen are near impossible, everybody, and I mean everybody is being asked to go beyond reasonable limits, many pilots are on their annual limit, new boys who's licences are not even dry yet are doing 80 hrs per month, yet still flights are being lost. Yes we can all work hard for a time but this is relentless and no sign of it easing up. As I said earlier if there was a management plan to improve things it would be great to know so that we can see some light at the end of the tunnel, as it is people are getting fed up and many are leaving or actively looking for other jobs. Not just the usual drift to fixed wing but other rotary and non aviation work. A sad reflection on peoples hopes for long term work in the North Sea.
There are rumours afoot that local recruiting cannot supply enough people for the industry and attempts are being made to bring in people from the far east! I am in no way against the use of other nationals if that is the only way but it makes me sad that this has to be done because the industry is driving good people away.
Guest
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I was interested to see the comment that the pilots on the North Sea should make sacrifices.
During my time on the NS more than 25 pilots and aircrew have lost their lives in support of the Oil Industry and the companies have conveniently forgotten all this.
The safety record has improved dramatically over the last few years, but many experienced people have left the job of late and generally not by choice.
The oil companies have enjoyed a bonanza recently and it is time that the slide in our pay and conditions was reversed.
Lets hope the wheeler, dealers are not going to pull the same trick on us as the government has pulled on the poor nurses; Bring in cheap imports to cheat the rules of supply and demand.
[This message has been edited by Houdini (edited 07 November 2000).]
During my time on the NS more than 25 pilots and aircrew have lost their lives in support of the Oil Industry and the companies have conveniently forgotten all this.
The safety record has improved dramatically over the last few years, but many experienced people have left the job of late and generally not by choice.
The oil companies have enjoyed a bonanza recently and it is time that the slide in our pay and conditions was reversed.
Lets hope the wheeler, dealers are not going to pull the same trick on us as the government has pulled on the poor nurses; Bring in cheap imports to cheat the rules of supply and demand.
[This message has been edited by Houdini (edited 07 November 2000).]
Guest
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Re Houdini:
My comment about sacrifice had nothing to do with safety. Safety is NOT an item you can sacrifice.
What I was referring to was, as per my follow-up posting, If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. There are many places you can tour in this world and touring brings with it many benefits as well as sacrifices i.e. less family time.
Enough said. The North Sea is not the only place on earth that has it's challenges and concerns.
Cheers,
OffshoreIgor
My comment about sacrifice had nothing to do with safety. Safety is NOT an item you can sacrifice.
What I was referring to was, as per my follow-up posting, If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. There are many places you can tour in this world and touring brings with it many benefits as well as sacrifices i.e. less family time.
Enough said. The North Sea is not the only place on earth that has it's challenges and concerns.
Cheers,
OffshoreIgor
Guest
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Gentleman,
We seem to have got into a 'who has the ****tish job with the worst conditions debate'.
Yes it's true that the North Sea is not as well paid as it used to be and it's true that other pilots elsewhere have had/have just as bad a time of it or worse. However that doesn't mean that we should criticise someone who wants to improve conditions in one part of the world with comments like 'can't stand the heat..' etc.
We all get old and find ourselves trapped in a job until retirement mainly for financial reasons and going elsewhere is not always an option for some people.
Surely all of us want better conditions and recognition for the job we do wherever we are.
We should be trying to promote the image of the helicopter pilot as a professional rather than as a cigar smoking, baseball cap wearing hillbilly!
Unfortunately if we continue to fight with each other and adopt the 'if you think you've got it bad look at me' argument it will never happen. So lets have some positive encouragement for someone trying to change things or constructive criticism if you don't like how he/she wants to do it rather than a transatlantic slagging match.
Night Sun :-)
[This message has been edited by Night Sun (edited 08 November 2000).]
We seem to have got into a 'who has the ****tish job with the worst conditions debate'.
Yes it's true that the North Sea is not as well paid as it used to be and it's true that other pilots elsewhere have had/have just as bad a time of it or worse. However that doesn't mean that we should criticise someone who wants to improve conditions in one part of the world with comments like 'can't stand the heat..' etc.
We all get old and find ourselves trapped in a job until retirement mainly for financial reasons and going elsewhere is not always an option for some people.
Surely all of us want better conditions and recognition for the job we do wherever we are.
We should be trying to promote the image of the helicopter pilot as a professional rather than as a cigar smoking, baseball cap wearing hillbilly!
Unfortunately if we continue to fight with each other and adopt the 'if you think you've got it bad look at me' argument it will never happen. So lets have some positive encouragement for someone trying to change things or constructive criticism if you don't like how he/she wants to do it rather than a transatlantic slagging match.
Night Sun :-)
[This message has been edited by Night Sun (edited 08 November 2000).]
Guest
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Re: Night Son
I couldn't agree with you more. What good is a bulletin board if you can't stir up some opinion.
I believe there are many legitimate concerns in all Areas of Operations and they have to be addressed. I also believe that there are no problems, only solutions.
I have only seen people talking about problems but not really offering solutions.
There are solutions available to many of the concerns. The most obvious is your own National Regulations and your Company SOP's. If you are all being pressured into doing something that is in conflict with these orders, then I suggest that your respective Companies and Customers need to be reminded that there is an established procedure for the safe completion of the job.
There are Regulatory bodies within your various Aviation Authorities that are a sounding board for the industry when a need for change is identified.
It's a starting point that gets the issues from the coffee room to the Flight Line.
Keep Looking!
Cheers
OffshoreIgor
I couldn't agree with you more. What good is a bulletin board if you can't stir up some opinion.
I believe there are many legitimate concerns in all Areas of Operations and they have to be addressed. I also believe that there are no problems, only solutions.
I have only seen people talking about problems but not really offering solutions.
There are solutions available to many of the concerns. The most obvious is your own National Regulations and your Company SOP's. If you are all being pressured into doing something that is in conflict with these orders, then I suggest that your respective Companies and Customers need to be reminded that there is an established procedure for the safe completion of the job.
There are Regulatory bodies within your various Aviation Authorities that are a sounding board for the industry when a need for change is identified.
It's a starting point that gets the issues from the coffee room to the Flight Line.
Keep Looking!
Cheers
OffshoreIgor
Guest
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Keep it coming everyone, whilst we do not have any solutions recent comments show a little more solidarity and willingness to do something constructive. The problem is that we alone cannot achieve things in the right way without management cooperation, yes we can achieve a lot through conflict but it would be far better if we were working together.
As I see it problems are:
Lack of manpower in all depts.
An ageing fleet in need of update/replacement.
Lack of communication everywhere.
What we need is some pride in our job and Companies and a willingness by all to aim for the "best practices" to become a reality. I know money is a problem, but look at Railtrack! Lets hope it doesn't cost lives before safety comes first here. Answers on a postcard please.
As I see it problems are:
Lack of manpower in all depts.
An ageing fleet in need of update/replacement.
Lack of communication everywhere.
What we need is some pride in our job and Companies and a willingness by all to aim for the "best practices" to become a reality. I know money is a problem, but look at Railtrack! Lets hope it doesn't cost lives before safety comes first here. Answers on a postcard please.
Guest
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As a person who sits in the back now and again for jaunts over the oggin, I hope that this issue of working max (or more) hours / month is resolved.
As an idependant contractor I know how the oil companies do their utmost to keep a lid on costs. However, it may be time to hit the safety issues hard as the oil majors flaunt their commitment to safety to the public. As the hirer of a service, they (the oil company)should ensure that a subcontractor has adequate internal safety procedures and obeys them in addition to any HSE or industry standards.
Good luck with the uphill task ahead of you. As a concerned observer, it is good to see a bit of harmony coming into this thread. You'll go nowhere unless everybody is singing off the same hymn sheet.
As an idependant contractor I know how the oil companies do their utmost to keep a lid on costs. However, it may be time to hit the safety issues hard as the oil majors flaunt their commitment to safety to the public. As the hirer of a service, they (the oil company)should ensure that a subcontractor has adequate internal safety procedures and obeys them in addition to any HSE or industry standards.
Good luck with the uphill task ahead of you. As a concerned observer, it is good to see a bit of harmony coming into this thread. You'll go nowhere unless everybody is singing off the same hymn sheet.
Guest
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How about a radical thought to help you North Sea pilots.
Anyone ever considered forming a proper union run BY North Sea pilots FOR North Sea pilots.
What about the mighty BALPA I hear a lone voice cry! Yeah, what about bloody BALPA I hear a vast number sigh!!
You don't have to be a big union but as long as everyone knew that you were representing and working for them you could accomplish a lot.
Divided we fall Together we stand
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Helmut Bag
Anyone ever considered forming a proper union run BY North Sea pilots FOR North Sea pilots.
What about the mighty BALPA I hear a lone voice cry! Yeah, what about bloody BALPA I hear a vast number sigh!!
You don't have to be a big union but as long as everyone knew that you were representing and working for them you could accomplish a lot.
Divided we fall Together we stand
------------------
Helmut Bag
Guest
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HOGE is absolutely right. It would never work.
Most NS pilots prefer to moan and groan about an issue rather than do anything about it and to set up a separate organisation would involve them having to actually put their hand in their pocket and produce some cash! It's hard enough to get some to buy a round!
On a more constructive note! The best bet is to stick with BALPA. While they haven't been able to achieve very much with the management of either company it is still early days. They also have the infrastructure and backup to deal with the more complex issues.
Actually when you think about it perhaps we'd stand a better chance getting the masons to go on strike - that would shut down both training schools and the middle management! ;-)
Most NS pilots prefer to moan and groan about an issue rather than do anything about it and to set up a separate organisation would involve them having to actually put their hand in their pocket and produce some cash! It's hard enough to get some to buy a round!
On a more constructive note! The best bet is to stick with BALPA. While they haven't been able to achieve very much with the management of either company it is still early days. They also have the infrastructure and backup to deal with the more complex issues.
Actually when you think about it perhaps we'd stand a better chance getting the masons to go on strike - that would shut down both training schools and the middle management! ;-)
Guest
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Gentlemen, please!
I've been following and participating in this forum for a while now and the common thread seems to be 'Strike!, Strike!, Strike!'
I believe you catch more flies with sugar.
I think what is definately missing is some form of "forum" between management and employees. In my company, we have an annual 'Employee/Management' Forum.
Representatives fromm all Bases, worldwide sit down and discuss all the current issues. Historically, 90% of all issues are resolved through this forum, with the remaining 10% usually concerning very petty issues.
If you consider the fact that a $10.00/day increase (about 4 pounds 50) accross the board can rapidly become a multi million dollar proposal for your company,(depending on your employee numbers) this becomes a monumental fincial cost for your company.
You may very well as someone has put it,"double your earnings overnight" but will you have a company in the morning to go to work for if they run out of money?
Just considering both sides of the coin!
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
I've been following and participating in this forum for a while now and the common thread seems to be 'Strike!, Strike!, Strike!'
I believe you catch more flies with sugar.
I think what is definately missing is some form of "forum" between management and employees. In my company, we have an annual 'Employee/Management' Forum.
Representatives fromm all Bases, worldwide sit down and discuss all the current issues. Historically, 90% of all issues are resolved through this forum, with the remaining 10% usually concerning very petty issues.
If you consider the fact that a $10.00/day increase (about 4 pounds 50) accross the board can rapidly become a multi million dollar proposal for your company,(depending on your employee numbers) this becomes a monumental fincial cost for your company.
You may very well as someone has put it,"double your earnings overnight" but will you have a company in the morning to go to work for if they run out of money?
Just considering both sides of the coin!
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
Guest
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Offshoreigor
I think we have had this conversation before about your knowledge of the North Sea and its working practices.You are obviously a very experienced pilot and have considerable knowledge of your own working enviroment, however the comments you make show with respect the naivity of your understanding of the working and management practices over here.I would respectfully suggest you do a little more homework.I think the quote goes something like this."let a man walk a mile in my shoes"
I think we have had this conversation before about your knowledge of the North Sea and its working practices.You are obviously a very experienced pilot and have considerable knowledge of your own working enviroment, however the comments you make show with respect the naivity of your understanding of the working and management practices over here.I would respectfully suggest you do a little more homework.I think the quote goes something like this."let a man walk a mile in my shoes"
Guest
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Well UNLOB you have really started something here, back to your original post, "are they listening"?
The answer can only be YES, firstly guys who have been in the company for 2 minutes are getting commands ( temporary of course) and to overcome the numbers problem I understand the Vietnamese pilots that the Norwegians have thrown out are coming to fill the slots!
Sarcasm is the lowest form of humour.
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Hey is that u Bob?
The answer can only be YES, firstly guys who have been in the company for 2 minutes are getting commands ( temporary of course) and to overcome the numbers problem I understand the Vietnamese pilots that the Norwegians have thrown out are coming to fill the slots!
Sarcasm is the lowest form of humour.
------------------
Hey is that u Bob?
Guest
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Offshoreigor I suggest you butt-out this thread until you have a 1% clue what you are talking about. You're opinions (probably well meant) are so wide of the mark you make yourself look clueless.
Save yourself embarassment by not posting on North Sea issues till you know your subject matter a wee bit better.
Save yourself embarassment by not posting on North Sea issues till you know your subject matter a wee bit better.
Guest
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4Rvibes:
Whew! Touchy aren't we. I thought someone said you Brits had a keen sense of humour and that I should get one too. I guess the Brit sense of humour is only active when chucking "S***".
I'm displaying my sense of humour by responding to this Boola Boola. When you finally realize that your problems and issues are not unique to the North Sea, you may start to ask the right questions about resolving these issues.
Someone said "walk a mile in my shoes". Well I have walked many miles in many shoes worldwide and guess what? It's the same everywhere you go. Scary thought, isn't it, that someone from the "outside" may have some insight into what you felt was your own exclusive and private domain.
The biggest problem some people face, is becoming too caught up in they're own little piece of the world. If you do one thing in one area long enough, you tend to develop tunnel vision and eventually you start to believe your own rhetoric.
I'll keep posting thankyou, at the risk of embarassing myself. After all, I'm just a dumb Colonial that needs a little more time to understand things of this nature.
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
Whew! Touchy aren't we. I thought someone said you Brits had a keen sense of humour and that I should get one too. I guess the Brit sense of humour is only active when chucking "S***".
I'm displaying my sense of humour by responding to this Boola Boola. When you finally realize that your problems and issues are not unique to the North Sea, you may start to ask the right questions about resolving these issues.
Someone said "walk a mile in my shoes". Well I have walked many miles in many shoes worldwide and guess what? It's the same everywhere you go. Scary thought, isn't it, that someone from the "outside" may have some insight into what you felt was your own exclusive and private domain.
The biggest problem some people face, is becoming too caught up in they're own little piece of the world. If you do one thing in one area long enough, you tend to develop tunnel vision and eventually you start to believe your own rhetoric.
I'll keep posting thankyou, at the risk of embarassing myself. After all, I'm just a dumb Colonial that needs a little more time to understand things of this nature.
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
