Police ASU powers
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
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I didn't make it a TRA in the real sense and it was the GA traffic that had to route around me (one mile). It was only for half an hour each time. My point was that it can make life easier and safer for some people, just by a piece of common sense.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
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No??? I asked in plain language. Something like 'we have an incident going on in this area that would benefit from being air traffic free for a short while... please'. Liverpool ATC were extremely helpful. I guess that if I had tried to do this on the approach/departure path, i would have been told to $$$$ off!! If you are nice to them and not demanding they will bend over backwards to help. As always, common sense helps. Remember, if you have a serious enough situation, you can follow the PAOM and suffix your callsign etc etc
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Concur with jayteeto - with a busy zone in the locality, an explanatory request invariably keeps the callsign un-suffixed, even when sitting in a dark 700' hover, 3 miles down the climbout. If you tell them what you're doing (and why, if it's likely to be a bit close for some people's comfort), do it, & illuminate yourself accordingly, life can remain relatively calm - even with 737s climbing out above. I've not yet managed to find out how much flex the commercial planks have when they're informed, visual, happy with the separation, but their TCAS gets excited - we've not caused a go-around yet!
In any case, it's never been a problem here because ATC tend to believe us when we do what we say we're going to do - i.e. professionally, which is what the thread of this post's all about, I think
In any case, it's never been a problem here because ATC tend to believe us when we do what we say we're going to do - i.e. professionally, which is what the thread of this post's all about, I think
Liverpool ATC actually offered a TRA to me on one job. This caused a slight pause in the cockpit as I contemplated this power that was being thrust upon me! As it was, I decided that the small amount of GA traffic around at the time didn't warrant it, so declined the offer.
The Directorate of Airspace Policy have a very good read called:
"Instructions for Establishing Emergency Flying Restrictions within the United Kingdom Flight Information Regions" DAP/AUS/202/Legal
It does exactly what it says on the tin!
FNW
"Instructions for Establishing Emergency Flying Restrictions within the United Kingdom Flight Information Regions" DAP/AUS/202/Legal
It does exactly what it says on the tin!
FNW
Join Date: Dec 2004
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So, if I had been in the vicinity of this incident, or possibly on-board, I could tell you the ASU's explanation of the TRA. It was, they said, a noise issue, to prevent disturbance to those working within the TRA. Strange then that the only heli operating within the TRA was the ASU's noisy machine, flying considerably lower than any other aircraft, and directly over what would have been the centre of the TRA if the coordinates had been correctly published.
They also burnt up a good chunk of tax-payers money whilst sitting rotors running on the ground for nearly 25 minutes.
They also burnt up a good chunk of tax-payers money whilst sitting rotors running on the ground for nearly 25 minutes.
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Rattle : lets make some assumptions:
1) Aircraft will be at ground idle
2) Approx fuel usage 110 kg per hour
At the approximate current costs for fuel ( as the aircraft is not airbourne and not clocking up flying and thus maintenance) I make the cost to the besiged British tax payer just under £15 + VAT.
Wow
I am sorry to hear about the noise, however in my opinion the crew of the aircraft will be carrying out detailed necessary filming for the subsequent inquiry.
1) Aircraft will be at ground idle
2) Approx fuel usage 110 kg per hour
At the approximate current costs for fuel ( as the aircraft is not airbourne and not clocking up flying and thus maintenance) I make the cost to the besiged British tax payer just under £15 + VAT.
Wow
I am sorry to hear about the noise, however in my opinion the crew of the aircraft will be carrying out detailed necessary filming for the subsequent inquiry.
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Rattle,
IF you had been in the area or, IF you had been in the aircraft, then you would have been fully aware of what the TRA had been established to “protect”. It would seem then, that you, or perhaps someone else on board the aircraft, decided, possibly for commercial reasons, correctly plotted or not, it did not apply to you. IMHO, it smacks a bit of bl00dy mindedness.
As I understand it, there was another aircraft, possibly a Gazelle, even lower than the Police aircraft that day who over flew the site, not once but three times who, apparently, didn’t know it was there at all.
IF you had been in the area or, IF you had been in the aircraft, then you would have been fully aware of what the TRA had been established to “protect”. It would seem then, that you, or perhaps someone else on board the aircraft, decided, possibly for commercial reasons, correctly plotted or not, it did not apply to you. IMHO, it smacks a bit of bl00dy mindedness.
As I understand it, there was another aircraft, possibly a Gazelle, even lower than the Police aircraft that day who over flew the site, not once but three times who, apparently, didn’t know it was there at all.
They also burnt up a good chunk of tax-payers money whilst sitting rotors running on the ground for nearly 25 minutes.
2. Perhaps sitting on the ground ready to go, but only burning fuel at ground-idle burn-rates, is cheaper to the taxpayer than having the aircraft flying orbits on station?
I don't know the answers, 'cos I'm nothing to do with the task - but these seem reasonable. What was the task?
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
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A turbine engine cycle due to a shutdown and restart can be far more expensive than the fuel used at ground idle.
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Fortyodd: you're mixing up the days. And you would appear not have the facts at your fingertips. Please don't forget that even Police ASU aircraft operate for commercial reasons.......
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Fortyodd
Do you recommend using the coordinates published in a NOTAM, or basing a TRA on where you think it should be? Could be tricky to defend yourself if you make up your own centre.
Seem to remember that the coordinates were changed soon after this incident. Maybe they were wrong but nobody wanted to admit it?
Do you recommend using the coordinates published in a NOTAM, or basing a TRA on where you think it should be? Could be tricky to defend yourself if you make up your own centre.
Seem to remember that the coordinates were changed soon after this incident. Maybe they were wrong but nobody wanted to admit it?
Last edited by rattle; 6th Dec 2004 at 10:41.
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Please don't forget that even Police ASU aircraft operate for commercial reasons.......
When do UK Police Air Ops Units operate for commercial reasons? Can I get a rebate on my Council Tax if they're getting funds from elsewhere?
When do UK Police Air Ops Units operate for commercial reasons? Can I get a rebate on my Council Tax if they're getting funds from elsewhere?
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Erm - well I think you'll find that people like Sterling appreciate it if their aircraft actually fly and make a profit for them. Unless, of course, they just do it for the good of the community.
Point is - throwing a commercial distraction into this argument is pointless. The ASU helicopter did everything wrong and very little right. And it's just ever so slightly worrying that a police pilot thinks he has the right to force other aircraft out of the sky. Let alone the fact that he doesn't check a TRA or plot it on a chart - doesn't the ANO require ALL pilots to preflight plan ??
And before anyone chimes in with "emergency" or "saving lives" this incident occurred nearly 48 hours after an event.
Point is - throwing a commercial distraction into this argument is pointless. The ASU helicopter did everything wrong and very little right. And it's just ever so slightly worrying that a police pilot thinks he has the right to force other aircraft out of the sky. Let alone the fact that he doesn't check a TRA or plot it on a chart - doesn't the ANO require ALL pilots to preflight plan ??
And before anyone chimes in with "emergency" or "saving lives" this incident occurred nearly 48 hours after an event.
Strange then that the only heli operating within the TRA was the ASU's noisy machine, flying considerably lower than any other aircraft, and directly over what would have been the centre of the TRA
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Rattle,
."Do you recommend using the coordinates published in a NOTAM, or basing a TRA on where you think is should be? Could be tricky to defend yourself if you make up your own centre".
If presented with the same scenario I would recommend getting in touch with the controlling authority and asking first - something along the lines of "I've been tasked by XYZ TV company to get some footage of the incident at blah, do you mind if I...... etc, etc, and does your ASU have a freq I can talk to them on to avoid getting in anyone's way".
Saves a lot of
all round.
."Do you recommend using the coordinates published in a NOTAM, or basing a TRA on where you think is should be? Could be tricky to defend yourself if you make up your own centre".
If presented with the same scenario I would recommend getting in touch with the controlling authority and asking first - something along the lines of "I've been tasked by XYZ TV company to get some footage of the incident at blah, do you mind if I...... etc, etc, and does your ASU have a freq I can talk to them on to avoid getting in anyone's way".
Saves a lot of
all round.