Never eat shredded wheat
Gizajob
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Never eat shredded wheat
I'm a part time FISO (i.e. working in the Control Tower) and the airfield has a reasonable number of rotary movements.
I have a question concerning my dealings with rotary - would be really interested in a professionals opinion/ thoughts:
On a significant number of departures and rejoins, the pilot will state he's approaching from/ departing to the East, and will set off to or arrive from the West! This is so common that all the FISO staff will look to both West and East automatically when trying to get visual contact with the traffic or to confirm the T/O path is clear.
It happens particularly with the Robinsons (22 and 44, though there are more of those anyway), to both CPL and PPL pilots, and is almost always an E/W confusion, not a N/S one. Fixed wing pilots do this as well but far far less often.
So what's going on? Is it an ergonomic problem with the DI/ compass design or something about how helo pilots think about direction. I'd love to try and shed some light on it...
I have a question concerning my dealings with rotary - would be really interested in a professionals opinion/ thoughts:
On a significant number of departures and rejoins, the pilot will state he's approaching from/ departing to the East, and will set off to or arrive from the West! This is so common that all the FISO staff will look to both West and East automatically when trying to get visual contact with the traffic or to confirm the T/O path is clear.
It happens particularly with the Robinsons (22 and 44, though there are more of those anyway), to both CPL and PPL pilots, and is almost always an E/W confusion, not a N/S one. Fixed wing pilots do this as well but far far less often.
So what's going on? Is it an ergonomic problem with the DI/ compass design or something about how helo pilots think about direction. I'd love to try and shed some light on it...
What's the wind direction at the time? If the helicopter is, for
example, approaching from the east, and the wind is also easterly,
then he would want to make his approach to land on an easterly
heading. If you don't see him until the last moment then it could
appear that he is coming from the west. '
'
Sorry, it's the only thing I can think of, but even so, the pilot
should let you know, especially on departure.
example, approaching from the east, and the wind is also easterly,
then he would want to make his approach to land on an easterly
heading. If you don't see him until the last moment then it could
appear that he is coming from the west. '
'Sorry, it's the only thing I can think of, but even so, the pilot
should let you know, especially on departure.
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If you gave someone a map and asked them which way is North and which is South, I doubt that many people would hesitate before answering correctly.
But ask which is East and which is West, and I expect that quite a few would go through the "Never Eat Shredded Wheat" routine to check!!!
As to why you observe this in Heli pilots rather than fixed wing, it's probably much more obvious as they approach low level to the boundary from the "wrong" direction.
A fixed wing pilot making the same mistake will probably join the circuit anyway, and pop up either Downwind or on Final where you expected them?
RC
But ask which is East and which is West, and I expect that quite a few would go through the "Never Eat Shredded Wheat" routine to check!!!
As to why you observe this in Heli pilots rather than fixed wing, it's probably much more obvious as they approach low level to the boundary from the "wrong" direction.
A fixed wing pilot making the same mistake will probably join the circuit anyway, and pop up either Downwind or on Final where you expected them?
RC
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Pilots aren't the only ones to do this - ATCers do it too. We all have to be careful and check if the information and or clearance we are given/request doesn't feel right.
There does seem to be something different between E/W and N/S. People have a mental picture of the cardinal points in their heads - I think that they naturally orient N/S correctly. Think about how your internal direction finder/spatial orienter works. E/W seems to be much less firmly routed. It's almost at a sub-conscious level that the mistake gets made. Pilots also go to places that they are not familiar with; the stress asociated with that makes mistakes more likely.
The classic mistake is, of course, to get it wrong by 180 degrees. MG highlights one source of the error - the way that we express wind direction, but I also think that people are inherently more likely to misorient E/W.
If there is a different rate between rotary and fixed wing pilots, then it may be because planks do standard joins (overhead etc.), whereas us rotary guys always seem to get something odd thrown at us.
The most basic heles may not have a card presentation of heading (DI or RMI/RBI), just a magnetic compass, which makes it more difficult to visualise what is going on.
There does seem to be something different between E/W and N/S. People have a mental picture of the cardinal points in their heads - I think that they naturally orient N/S correctly. Think about how your internal direction finder/spatial orienter works. E/W seems to be much less firmly routed. It's almost at a sub-conscious level that the mistake gets made. Pilots also go to places that they are not familiar with; the stress asociated with that makes mistakes more likely.
The classic mistake is, of course, to get it wrong by 180 degrees. MG highlights one source of the error - the way that we express wind direction, but I also think that people are inherently more likely to misorient E/W.
If there is a different rate between rotary and fixed wing pilots, then it may be because planks do standard joins (overhead etc.), whereas us rotary guys always seem to get something odd thrown at us.
The most basic heles may not have a card presentation of heading (DI or RMI/RBI), just a magnetic compass, which makes it more difficult to visualise what is going on.
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EGBKFLYER,
You say that it mostly happens in R22 and R44 Helis, The later model Robinsons have an option for a Vertical card compass (Looks a bit like a DG), or a standard compass.
The Vertical card has become the popular choice for some reason and could be a bit confusing for the student or low timer to orientate themselves with this type of compass, I have seen some have problems with orientation of the DG when just new to the game!!
You say that it mostly happens in R22 and R44 Helis, The later model Robinsons have an option for a Vertical card compass (Looks a bit like a DG), or a standard compass.
The Vertical card has become the popular choice for some reason and could be a bit confusing for the student or low timer to orientate themselves with this type of compass, I have seen some have problems with orientation of the DG when just new to the game!!
Gizajob
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Ah...
Thanks for all that - interesting reading as always...
Mightygem - don't think the wind has much to do with it - I've had pilots report the Western boundary when I see them clearly at the Eastern! I know they will try to t/o land into wind, but that happens much closer in as far as I've seen. As a small point, I will always quote wind as a specific number of degrees - not 'Easterly' etc, so the confusion about departure/ landing direction and wind direction shouldn't arise?
Tracdirect - I had a go in an R22 once and remember the vertical card compass. I wondered if it might be a factor, which is why I mentioned the types I've had this happen with. That said, about 90% of movements are Robbos anyway, so the statistics are a bit suspect there...
helinut - think you might be onto something. 'Plank' flyers have a runway to orientate themselves with, so that may help. It does happen that they approach opposite to the direction stated (I see them join overhead so I would know if they'd got it wrong generally) but it is rarer. I like the set circuit pattern theory though.
So the next question is - given that this happens and might one day cause a problem - is there anything I can do to help in terms of what I say or what info I ask a joiner for?
Mightygem - don't think the wind has much to do with it - I've had pilots report the Western boundary when I see them clearly at the Eastern! I know they will try to t/o land into wind, but that happens much closer in as far as I've seen. As a small point, I will always quote wind as a specific number of degrees - not 'Easterly' etc, so the confusion about departure/ landing direction and wind direction shouldn't arise?
Tracdirect - I had a go in an R22 once and remember the vertical card compass. I wondered if it might be a factor, which is why I mentioned the types I've had this happen with. That said, about 90% of movements are Robbos anyway, so the statistics are a bit suspect there...
helinut - think you might be onto something. 'Plank' flyers have a runway to orientate themselves with, so that may help. It does happen that they approach opposite to the direction stated (I see them join overhead so I would know if they'd got it wrong generally) but it is rarer. I like the set circuit pattern theory though.
So the next question is - given that this happens and might one day cause a problem - is there anything I can do to help in terms of what I say or what info I ask a joiner for?
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Don't know the U.K. rules, but...
Perhaps you could ask them to report at a geographic landmark, if available. That would make it easier to confirm their direction of approach, if you didn't have radar. For example, I usually make my initial call 10 nm out to Class D airport. Sometimes, the tower will ask me to report 3 nm out. Sometimes, the tower will ask me to "report hospital" (about 3 nm out). Obviously, this depends on their approach, and the geographic landmark would have to be clearly marked on the maps.
If you really aren't sure, make the pilot give more information. Request location, altitude, speed, and heading. Most pilots only report location and altitude on their initial call, so requesting more information from them might make them think "oops - I gave the wrong info on my first call" and they'll fix it when they reply. If the pilot isn't sure or you get a lot of "uh... er... well... stand by," make them come back when they know what they are doing (keeps the rest of us safe).
Another thing that might be confusing is how the call is made. If you have a preference, it wouldn't hurt to contact the local R-22 schools and let them know what the guys in the tower like to hear. Better yet, sponsor a class once a quarter and invite the students at these schools and all local helicopter pilots. I usually go out of my way to attend an FAA Wings Safety Seminar if it is specific to rotorcraft (not very common for some reason).
This is an interesting thread to me, and I wonder what the rest of the Rotorheads group does. I usually report my location as reference to my destination, and I rarely give my heading unless requested. It's usually something like, "XXX Tower, Helicopter XXX 10 miles east at 3000, landing with Lima" (if flying an R-22, I'm usually 85-90 KIAS heading 275 in this scenario, but I usually don't report that).
Steve76's acronym is better!
If you really aren't sure, make the pilot give more information. Request location, altitude, speed, and heading. Most pilots only report location and altitude on their initial call, so requesting more information from them might make them think "oops - I gave the wrong info on my first call" and they'll fix it when they reply. If the pilot isn't sure or you get a lot of "uh... er... well... stand by," make them come back when they know what they are doing (keeps the rest of us safe).
Another thing that might be confusing is how the call is made. If you have a preference, it wouldn't hurt to contact the local R-22 schools and let them know what the guys in the tower like to hear. Better yet, sponsor a class once a quarter and invite the students at these schools and all local helicopter pilots. I usually go out of my way to attend an FAA Wings Safety Seminar if it is specific to rotorcraft (not very common for some reason).
This is an interesting thread to me, and I wonder what the rest of the Rotorheads group does. I usually report my location as reference to my destination, and I rarely give my heading unless requested. It's usually something like, "XXX Tower, Helicopter XXX 10 miles east at 3000, landing with Lima" (if flying an R-22, I'm usually 85-90 KIAS heading 275 in this scenario, but I usually don't report that).
Steve76's acronym is better!
Gizajob
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It may be worth trying to get some reporting points set up, as I think that would make things clearer. Would also help noise abatement, as I have to confirm procedures with non-local pilots and that takes up valuable RT time. I'll follow it up with my boss.
I could ask them to report more information - in fact they normally give it anyway. This doesn't seem to solve the problem though as they don't report a geographical feature, only a bearing relative to the 'field (i.e. SW, N etc). Also, this doesn't affect the departure side of things...
We do have contact with the rotary operators, but I don't believe we've ever raised this point - it's one of those little things we all live with up to now. I'm new in the job and keen to give a good, safe service, which is why I'm asking the questions. I might post a similar query on the ATC forum to see if this is a local issue or one others have noticed too...
I could ask them to report more information - in fact they normally give it anyway. This doesn't seem to solve the problem though as they don't report a geographical feature, only a bearing relative to the 'field (i.e. SW, N etc). Also, this doesn't affect the departure side of things...
We do have contact with the rotary operators, but I don't believe we've ever raised this point - it's one of those little things we all live with up to now. I'm new in the job and keen to give a good, safe service, which is why I'm asking the questions. I might post a similar query on the ATC forum to see if this is a local issue or one others have noticed too...
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The Vertical card has become the popular choice for some reason and could be a bit confusing for the student or low timer to orientate themselves with this type of compass, I have seen some have problems with orientation of the DG when just new to the game!!
One thing - Sywell is an unusual field in that the pattern made by its runways doesn't really align with a cardinal direction. In fact they make an equilateral triangle pointing in 'no particular direction' which makes it a little harder to visually overlay cardinal points on the plan view of the field.
Am I making sense?
Benet
Edit: http://www.sywellaerodrome.co.uk/home.html
Last edited by Benet; 16th May 2004 at 12:02.
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I think this confusion occurs because when heading west you arrive at the eastern field boundary and vice versa.
My teaching was always to set the bug on the DI / Compass whenever possible as a reminder. As in FREDA rejoin checks, where D = DI / Compass. I do this as matter of course, although I've been flying for 25 yrs or so.
ATC can help out by allowing a rotary wing to join via the standard FW circuit pattern if possible, especially if the pilot isn't used to the local heli procedures (which tend to be different at almost every airfield). Everyone should then know where to look for the heli if standard RT is used.
My teaching was always to set the bug on the DI / Compass whenever possible as a reminder. As in FREDA rejoin checks, where D = DI / Compass. I do this as matter of course, although I've been flying for 25 yrs or so.
ATC can help out by allowing a rotary wing to join via the standard FW circuit pattern if possible, especially if the pilot isn't used to the local heli procedures (which tend to be different at almost every airfield). Everyone should then know where to look for the heli if standard RT is used.
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VRPs sound good
Trying to think of what is around Sywell, you could simply use the towns/villages,lakes and maybe the dual-carriageway road that runs south of the field - can't be more specific cos I don't have a chart to hand
Trying to think of what is around Sywell, you could simply use the towns/villages,lakes and maybe the dual-carriageway road that runs south of the field - can't be more specific cos I don't have a chart to hand
Gizajob
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Looks like the consensus is VRPs. I'd probably go for Wellingborough, Pitsford, Earls Barton and Overstone or something like that. As I say, I'll follow this up with the airfield manager and see what the score is.
On the subject of joining procedures - there is technically no deadside at Sywell as there is a published rotary circuit - always opposite to the fixed wing. There would obviously be no problem in any helo joining that pattern, but in my limited experience, most rotary pilots want a quicker approach and landing or even direct to the overhead for an autorotation.
On the subject of joining procedures - there is technically no deadside at Sywell as there is a published rotary circuit - always opposite to the fixed wing. There would obviously be no problem in any helo joining that pattern, but in my limited experience, most rotary pilots want a quicker approach and landing or even direct to the overhead for an autorotation.
