Private Landing Sites (Merged)
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Unlawfull Operation ???????
I have been operating helicopters out of my back garden / field for over 4 years. Yesterday received a letter from the local planners
" The council has recieved several complaints regarding the use of the land at the rear of your property for the landing and taking off of helicopters. What is not clear at this stage is whether the land forms part of your domestic curtilage or is other land withinn your ownership or control. As the lawfulness of the reported use may be dependent on the status of the land being used i request that you contact my senior investigation advisory officer so that arrangements can be made to visit the site"
The Site is a domestic property with one next door neighbour (Friend no problem he knew i operated helicopters for several years before i bought the property off him) Next nearest neighbour 1000 yards.
Rule 5 no problem green fields for as far as you can see.
Planning permission includes a private garden upto 16 meters away from the house, the remainder of the garden is classed as green belt agricultural. The landing pad does extend into the agricultural land so i am probably in trouble.
Anybody know the facts on private sites / agricutural land before the anti helicopter squad arrives.
By the way, weather permitting i am flying 3 - 4 times per week.
" The council has recieved several complaints regarding the use of the land at the rear of your property for the landing and taking off of helicopters. What is not clear at this stage is whether the land forms part of your domestic curtilage or is other land withinn your ownership or control. As the lawfulness of the reported use may be dependent on the status of the land being used i request that you contact my senior investigation advisory officer so that arrangements can be made to visit the site"
The Site is a domestic property with one next door neighbour (Friend no problem he knew i operated helicopters for several years before i bought the property off him) Next nearest neighbour 1000 yards.
Rule 5 no problem green fields for as far as you can see.
Planning permission includes a private garden upto 16 meters away from the house, the remainder of the garden is classed as green belt agricultural. The landing pad does extend into the agricultural land so i am probably in trouble.
Anybody know the facts on private sites / agricutural land before the anti helicopter squad arrives.
By the way, weather permitting i am flying 3 - 4 times per week.
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Cyclic
It is my understanding that the domestic curtilage bit is the crunch part. Perhaps you should quickly extend your curtilage to include the pad if you can do so up to the limit of your planning permission.. Otherwise you are dependent on the 28 day rule, which at your level of usage you are clearly above. One approach is 28 days in your field, 28 days in your neighbours field, 28 days in the field over the road etc etc
Otherwise find out locally who is complaining and give them a ride over their house to take photos ASAP.
Good luck
It is my understanding that the domestic curtilage bit is the crunch part. Perhaps you should quickly extend your curtilage to include the pad if you can do so up to the limit of your planning permission.. Otherwise you are dependent on the 28 day rule, which at your level of usage you are clearly above. One approach is 28 days in your field, 28 days in your neighbours field, 28 days in the field over the road etc etc
Otherwise find out locally who is complaining and give them a ride over their house to take photos ASAP.
Good luck
There are no limits
This was covered in a thread some time ago, but here is some guidance from a very experienced back-yard operator!
The main points are:
1. He should be careful and concerned to keep the noise to a minimum, and not overfly his village.
2. Unless there is direct access from his garden to open countryside he is in breach of Rule 5, 1500 ft rule, congested area.
3. He can land in the curtilage of his house (i.e. the garden) without planning restriction or permission, provided it is for a purpose incidental to the use of the house as a dwelling - in the same way you can park your car at home. Commercial use would require planning permission.
This assumes it is a big enough garden to avoid endangering other properties. Landing within a few feet of another dwelling would probably be classed as endangerment by the CAA.
4. Aircraft are exempt from noise legislation, but it will do him, and helicopters in general, no good to use that in an aggressive way, and point 2 fingers at the council.
5. These problems are best solved by both parties being mature, restrained, considerate of the other party, and coming to a sensible compromise.
Hope this helps
The main points are:
1. He should be careful and concerned to keep the noise to a minimum, and not overfly his village.
2. Unless there is direct access from his garden to open countryside he is in breach of Rule 5, 1500 ft rule, congested area.
3. He can land in the curtilage of his house (i.e. the garden) without planning restriction or permission, provided it is for a purpose incidental to the use of the house as a dwelling - in the same way you can park your car at home. Commercial use would require planning permission.
This assumes it is a big enough garden to avoid endangering other properties. Landing within a few feet of another dwelling would probably be classed as endangerment by the CAA.
4. Aircraft are exempt from noise legislation, but it will do him, and helicopters in general, no good to use that in an aggressive way, and point 2 fingers at the council.
5. These problems are best solved by both parties being mature, restrained, considerate of the other party, and coming to a sensible compromise.
Hope this helps
Limits:
I know you're only quoting freom another reply in a thread, but are aircraft exempt from noise legislation ? My understanding ( thanks Dave @ Farnborogh LARS ! ) is that the CAA are responsible for aircraft noise problems.
Or, as it's 11:15 on Friday and I'm sozzled, have I misread things ?
I know you're only quoting freom another reply in a thread, but are aircraft exempt from noise legislation ? My understanding ( thanks Dave @ Farnborogh LARS ! ) is that the CAA are responsible for aircraft noise problems.
Or, as it's 11:15 on Friday and I'm sozzled, have I misread things ?
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Here's a quick summary of the general principles.
Warning: This is from memory. I have not looked up the law to see if there have been any changes since I was last involved in a case of this type.
Private Landing Sites
Planning consent is not normally required for helicopter operations from private property. You are permitted to operate from a private house without planning consent provided the landing site is within the curtilage of the property. ie the garden.
'Private' in this context means for the private or business use of the owner, his employees or anyone visiting him. Different considerations apply to general helicopter landing sites.
You are permitted to use your adjoining field as a 'temporary landing site' for up to a maximum of 28 days in any calendar year. Beyond that, planning consent will probably be required. (A field is classified as open land and using it for your heli ops would probably be regarded as a 'change of use' for which planning consent is required.)
All landing sites located in congested areas, whether permanent, temporary or private, require the prior written permission of the CAA. (See Rule 5 re approach/departure route(s).)
Noise
There is an exemption from an action for noise nuisance but it applies only to aircraft in flight over property, and provided the aircraft is flown reasonably in accordance with the standards of good airmanship. In the case of unlicensed heliports and landing sites, individuals are able to pursue a claim for noise nuisance whilst the helicopter is on the ground.
Good Luck!
Tudor Owen
Warning: This is from memory. I have not looked up the law to see if there have been any changes since I was last involved in a case of this type.
Private Landing Sites
Planning consent is not normally required for helicopter operations from private property. You are permitted to operate from a private house without planning consent provided the landing site is within the curtilage of the property. ie the garden.
'Private' in this context means for the private or business use of the owner, his employees or anyone visiting him. Different considerations apply to general helicopter landing sites.
You are permitted to use your adjoining field as a 'temporary landing site' for up to a maximum of 28 days in any calendar year. Beyond that, planning consent will probably be required. (A field is classified as open land and using it for your heli ops would probably be regarded as a 'change of use' for which planning consent is required.)
All landing sites located in congested areas, whether permanent, temporary or private, require the prior written permission of the CAA. (See Rule 5 re approach/departure route(s).)
Noise
There is an exemption from an action for noise nuisance but it applies only to aircraft in flight over property, and provided the aircraft is flown reasonably in accordance with the standards of good airmanship. In the case of unlicensed heliports and landing sites, individuals are able to pursue a claim for noise nuisance whilst the helicopter is on the ground.
Good Luck!
Tudor Owen
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FL
I seem to remember from an old thread that the 28 day rule applies to land "under your control". ie If you own 3 separate fields at the back of your house, then you can only have 28 days in all of them combined. However, if the field next door belongs to a friend, then you can have 28 days in yours and 28 in his etc.
Is this correct?
I seem to remember from an old thread that the 28 day rule applies to land "under your control". ie If you own 3 separate fields at the back of your house, then you can only have 28 days in all of them combined. However, if the field next door belongs to a friend, then you can have 28 days in yours and 28 in his etc.
Is this correct?
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jellycopter
It's the number of days you use your land as a temporary landing site which matters. ie The number of days on which there are movements must not exceed 28. There doesn't appear to be any restriction upon the number of days you can park a helicopter.
It's the number of days you use your land as a temporary landing site which matters. ie The number of days on which there are movements must not exceed 28. There doesn't appear to be any restriction upon the number of days you can park a helicopter.
Last edited by Heliport; 18th May 2003 at 19:40.
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cyclic flare
There's useful information about private landing sites on the BHAB website. Click here.
Look at 'THE CIVIL HELICOPTER IN THE COMMUNITY.'
Section 4: Planning Legislation
Section 5: Environmental Issues
FL
There's useful information about private landing sites on the BHAB website. Click here.
Look at 'THE CIVIL HELICOPTER IN THE COMMUNITY.'
Section 4: Planning Legislation
Section 5: Environmental Issues
FL
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I hesitate to contradict a moderator, but I don't think that Heliport has it quite right about the interpretation of the 28 day rule.
Remember, it is a planning rule, not specifically intended to apply to aircraft movements. Take "Car Boot Sales" as an example. They can do 28 of these horrible events on a site (one per day) without getting planning permission. Lots of car movements on/off the site in each of the days when the sales were on, but each sale only counts as one day's activity. In a similar way, I guess you could have a "fly-in" on a day to your field with lots of movements but it would only count as one day's worth off the 28 day limit.
IMHO, of course.
Remember, it is a planning rule, not specifically intended to apply to aircraft movements. Take "Car Boot Sales" as an example. They can do 28 of these horrible events on a site (one per day) without getting planning permission. Lots of car movements on/off the site in each of the days when the sales were on, but each sale only counts as one day's activity. In a similar way, I guess you could have a "fly-in" on a day to your field with lots of movements but it would only count as one day's worth off the 28 day limit.
IMHO, of course.
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"I hesitate to contradict a moderator ......"
Don't hesitate. My opinion about topics under discussion isn't worth more than yours or anyone else.
My earlier post was ambiguous. I've edited it to make it clearer, but it's still only an opinion.
Heliport
Don't hesitate. My opinion about topics under discussion isn't worth more than yours or anyone else.
My earlier post was ambiguous. I've edited it to make it clearer, but it's still only an opinion.
Heliport
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In most cases, the local authority planning department won't be in the slightest bit interested, unless there are complaints - there is a moral there about keeping neighbours sweet, if you can!
If they receive a complaint, then one of their enforcement officers will investigate, and take it from there. As I understand planning law though, even if they can prove there has been a planning development for more than 28 days, they cannot prosecute at that stage. They may issue orders that prohibit you from continuing the use. I believe it is at this stage that, if you ignore the order, that they can bring out the big guns
If they receive a complaint, then one of their enforcement officers will investigate, and take it from there. As I understand planning law though, even if they can prove there has been a planning development for more than 28 days, they cannot prosecute at that stage. They may issue orders that prohibit you from continuing the use. I believe it is at this stage that, if you ignore the order, that they can bring out the big guns
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Here are the rules the last time I heard:
"The owner of a piece of land does not need special permission to use it as a Helicopter Landing Site provided certain conditions are met. Naturally, it must not be in a congested area, otherwise you will come up against the ANO. It must also be only for private or business use, that of any employees, or people specifically visiting for social or business purposes. Finally, no structure must be erected in connection with its use for helicopters, aside from temporary ones (such as windsocks), otherwise the Planning Permission (Zoning) people will become interested—there's no need to notify them of anything unless the land is to be used as a helipad on more than 28 days in any year. In fact, current planning regulations allow a helicopter to be used for personal, business and leisure uses “as many people use a private car” from the owner’s dwelling house without limitation, making it exempt from planning control, provided the use is incidental, or ancillary to, the principal use of the land. Also, the local police should be informed, as well as the other emergency services, especially where the public would normally have a right-of-way (such as a park).
In the USA, and probably Canada, you can land a helicopter anywhere that has not been declared as illegal, with the usual provisos about low flying and reckless operation, but be aware that local restrictions may well override any laid down by the FAA or Transport Canada."
Phil
"The owner of a piece of land does not need special permission to use it as a Helicopter Landing Site provided certain conditions are met. Naturally, it must not be in a congested area, otherwise you will come up against the ANO. It must also be only for private or business use, that of any employees, or people specifically visiting for social or business purposes. Finally, no structure must be erected in connection with its use for helicopters, aside from temporary ones (such as windsocks), otherwise the Planning Permission (Zoning) people will become interested—there's no need to notify them of anything unless the land is to be used as a helipad on more than 28 days in any year. In fact, current planning regulations allow a helicopter to be used for personal, business and leisure uses “as many people use a private car” from the owner’s dwelling house without limitation, making it exempt from planning control, provided the use is incidental, or ancillary to, the principal use of the land. Also, the local police should be informed, as well as the other emergency services, especially where the public would normally have a right-of-way (such as a park).
In the USA, and probably Canada, you can land a helicopter anywhere that has not been declared as illegal, with the usual provisos about low flying and reckless operation, but be aware that local restrictions may well override any laid down by the FAA or Transport Canada."
Phil
Cylic Flare
You need a copy of Planning Policy Note 24 about Planning and Noise paragraph 18. This states that in general where helicopters are used from gardens or commmerical premises and their use is incidental to the prinicipal use of the land then planning permission is not generally required.
I have the same problems with the national Park I live in. What you generally find, the planning people do not have a clue about the law. so blind them with the law and hopefully it is so much hassle they will give up. Be nice to them as the authority will have received a complaint that they are obliged to investigate. If you show them you are in the know and far more importantly fly environmentally friendly they will go away happy.
You can always drop me an e mail and i will give you my phone number for a chat.
You need a copy of Planning Policy Note 24 about Planning and Noise paragraph 18. This states that in general where helicopters are used from gardens or commmerical premises and their use is incidental to the prinicipal use of the land then planning permission is not generally required.
I have the same problems with the national Park I live in. What you generally find, the planning people do not have a clue about the law. so blind them with the law and hopefully it is so much hassle they will give up. Be nice to them as the authority will have received a complaint that they are obliged to investigate. If you show them you are in the know and far more importantly fly environmentally friendly they will go away happy.
You can always drop me an e mail and i will give you my phone number for a chat.
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Flying Lawyer,
I would be grateful for your view on the following:
Does the curtilage have to be domestic? My example would be a private house with an old farmyard (only used for keeping one old tractor, not commercial farming) where the landing site is within the (pretty large!) yard. Is there a distinction between the domestic curtilage and the whole curtilage? The whole curtilage being only the walled or fenced area around the property, no other land of course.
Also, is there any establishment of use or does this apply only to structure built i.e. landing pad? What's the rule now - 4yrs without comment and you're OK?
Thanks.
I would be grateful for your view on the following:
Does the curtilage have to be domestic? My example would be a private house with an old farmyard (only used for keeping one old tractor, not commercial farming) where the landing site is within the (pretty large!) yard. Is there a distinction between the domestic curtilage and the whole curtilage? The whole curtilage being only the walled or fenced area around the property, no other land of course.
Also, is there any establishment of use or does this apply only to structure built i.e. landing pad? What's the rule now - 4yrs without comment and you're OK?
Thanks.
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I seem to fit in with a lot of the above with being in a country area and a converted farmhouse etc.
Anyone know just how big a curtladge is, I have been extending the garden, which was once a field, for the last few years and although I actually land quite close to the house at the moment, I am thinking of landing a little further away (100yds) still in the landscaped bit and building a small agricultural building to store my tractor and other things in, it will probably have quite wide doors
I am not daft enough to tell the planners I want to keep my cutting equipment (choppers and the like) in there but if it is not in the curtladge thing I may have a bit of a problem.
As another thought, what if I landed in my curtladge and towed it to the barn, is that OK?
Sorry for all the whaffle and I am not too pressed at the moment as I have pretty good people around but you never know who will turn up from the peoples republic of Oldham at some time and I would like to have the right answers off pat.
Anyone know just how big a curtladge is, I have been extending the garden, which was once a field, for the last few years and although I actually land quite close to the house at the moment, I am thinking of landing a little further away (100yds) still in the landscaped bit and building a small agricultural building to store my tractor and other things in, it will probably have quite wide doors
I am not daft enough to tell the planners I want to keep my cutting equipment (choppers and the like) in there but if it is not in the curtladge thing I may have a bit of a problem.
As another thought, what if I landed in my curtladge and towed it to the barn, is that OK?
Sorry for all the whaffle and I am not too pressed at the moment as I have pretty good people around but you never know who will turn up from the peoples republic of Oldham at some time and I would like to have the right answers off pat.
To reinforce a comment by What Limits, do make sure that you are not endangering either your aircraft and occupants or third parties in the way your aircraft is operated into a small LS. See ANO Art 53 & 54 or thereabouts. (From memory.)