Private Landing Sites (Merged)
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I am not sure that any of you guys looking for a definitive answer to your particular questions will get one (that is worth having). FL may disagree, but like most legal stuff, the final answer depends on the specific circumstances and facts of the particular case. As I understand it, the distilled wisdom? in the previous contributions is a fair summary. If you want more specific you will need a big cheque and a lawyer, who will ask you loads more questions.
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Helinut is right. I'm always very happy to help fellow pilots whenever I can but, on topics like this, all I can do is set out the relevant law / general principles which apply to all cases. The legal position in each particular case will depend upon its own circumstances and facts.
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Thanks Helinut,
I accept your overall point BUT, my two questions were quite specific and about the fact of the law, not my particular circumstances. They were only added as an illustration.
People commonly talk of 'domestic curtilage'. My first question is, is the specific term 'domestic' used in the legislation or PPG guidance notes or not? Or is curtilage always understood to be domestic?
Two, it is, again, commonly understood, that establishing a use without permission but without challenge or complaint gives you the permanent right after a certain period of time. My question is, is this true, and if so what is the number if years?
I tried hard to phrase my original question in specific terms i.e. precisly what does the law or PPGs say rather than what are the possible interpretations.
As someone who has fed many lawyers families over many years I do realise that asking anything less specific or particular to individual circumstances can only be answered after writing a large cheque.
So, FL, if you could help with these two question, again, I'd be grateful. Thanks.
I accept your overall point BUT, my two questions were quite specific and about the fact of the law, not my particular circumstances. They were only added as an illustration.
People commonly talk of 'domestic curtilage'. My first question is, is the specific term 'domestic' used in the legislation or PPG guidance notes or not? Or is curtilage always understood to be domestic?
Two, it is, again, commonly understood, that establishing a use without permission but without challenge or complaint gives you the permanent right after a certain period of time. My question is, is this true, and if so what is the number if years?
I tried hard to phrase my original question in specific terms i.e. precisly what does the law or PPGs say rather than what are the possible interpretations.
As someone who has fed many lawyers families over many years I do realise that asking anything less specific or particular to individual circumstances can only be answered after writing a large cheque.
So, FL, if you could help with these two question, again, I'd be grateful. Thanks.
B47
Domestic curtlidge is defined ( by my planning expert ) as your garden, driveway etc. Where you have padocks, fields etc etc these are not within your curtlidge.
However what you will find that you can extend your curtlidge by say simply taking down a fence between garden and field and asking where is the boundry ?? Or better still move your fence, you will find that most 1:10000 maps do not provide enough detail as to where the field boundries actually are. For you to be exempt from planning permission you have to have been doing things for 10 years without complaint.
Hope this helps, if confronted by planners ask the question what is the difference between landing in my garden compared to the adjoing field, this is what i did claiming I would make more noise by positioning into my garden than the field - after all the normal complaint is on noise rather than where you land, so if it is louder and for longer in the garden tell the planner, you will be pleasently surprised on the result.
Domestic curtlidge is defined ( by my planning expert ) as your garden, driveway etc. Where you have padocks, fields etc etc these are not within your curtlidge.
However what you will find that you can extend your curtlidge by say simply taking down a fence between garden and field and asking where is the boundry ?? Or better still move your fence, you will find that most 1:10000 maps do not provide enough detail as to where the field boundries actually are. For you to be exempt from planning permission you have to have been doing things for 10 years without complaint.
Hope this helps, if confronted by planners ask the question what is the difference between landing in my garden compared to the adjoing field, this is what i did claiming I would make more noise by positioning into my garden than the field - after all the normal complaint is on noise rather than where you land, so if it is louder and for longer in the garden tell the planner, you will be pleasently surprised on the result.
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B47
Q1: Is the specific term 'domestic' used in the legislation or PPG guidance notes or not? Or is curtilage always understood to be domestic?
I haven't looked at all the legislation or PPG guidance notes so don't know whether the term 'domestic' appears, but curtilage is not always understood to be domestic.
The curtilage of a building is the land within which a building is set and which belongs (or once belonged) to it and is (or was) used with it. The extent of the curtilage can be difficult to determine, and it will often be small but not necessarily.
In any particular case, it can only be determined in the light of the particular facts involved. eg In the case of a farmhouse it may extend to adjoining barns, stables and sheds.
To determine what is within the curtilage of a building, it is necessary to consider:
the physical 'layout' of the building and the other structures;
their ownership, past and present; and
their use and function, past and present.
Q2: "It is commonly understood, that establishing a use without permission but without challenge or complaint gives you the permanent right after a certain period of time. My question is, is this true, and if so what is the number if years?"
Yes, it is possible to establish a use - See Hughes500's reply above. But it depends upon the particular circumstances of each case. It's not simply a matter of 'getting away with' something for x years earning the automatic right to be entitled to continue.
I'm sorry I can't be more helpful. I'd have to see the property to be able to give you any useful answers to your questions, and an opinion as to which way a decision is likely to go if challenged.
I'm involved in a long case not very far from you at the moment. If I get any free time, I'd be happy to look at it for you - FOC except for a ride in your B47
- let me know.
Q1: Is the specific term 'domestic' used in the legislation or PPG guidance notes or not? Or is curtilage always understood to be domestic?
I haven't looked at all the legislation or PPG guidance notes so don't know whether the term 'domestic' appears, but curtilage is not always understood to be domestic.
The curtilage of a building is the land within which a building is set and which belongs (or once belonged) to it and is (or was) used with it. The extent of the curtilage can be difficult to determine, and it will often be small but not necessarily.
In any particular case, it can only be determined in the light of the particular facts involved. eg In the case of a farmhouse it may extend to adjoining barns, stables and sheds.
To determine what is within the curtilage of a building, it is necessary to consider:
the physical 'layout' of the building and the other structures;
their ownership, past and present; and
their use and function, past and present.
Q2: "It is commonly understood, that establishing a use without permission but without challenge or complaint gives you the permanent right after a certain period of time. My question is, is this true, and if so what is the number if years?"
Yes, it is possible to establish a use - See Hughes500's reply above. But it depends upon the particular circumstances of each case. It's not simply a matter of 'getting away with' something for x years earning the automatic right to be entitled to continue.
I'm sorry I can't be more helpful. I'd have to see the property to be able to give you any useful answers to your questions, and an opinion as to which way a decision is likely to go if challenged.
I'm involved in a long case not very far from you at the moment. If I get any free time, I'd be happy to look at it for you - FOC except for a ride in your B47
- let me know.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 24th May 2003 at 18:51.
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Private Site (Helicopter)
If this has been covered by an earlier thread please pont me to it.
I have a colleague who wants to use a paddock that he owns, adjacent to his home, but it is not part of the CURTILAGE of his dwelling.
What are the issues that he will come up against.......
He will only be using the site for private use.
Look forward to getting some responses as I have heard many differing views.
I have a colleague who wants to use a paddock that he owns, adjacent to his home, but it is not part of the CURTILAGE of his dwelling.
What are the issues that he will come up against.......
He will only be using the site for private use.
Look forward to getting some responses as I have heard many differing views.
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jerry,
You are right this has been dealt with before - try a search in Rotorheads. It brings up a number of relevant threads.
There are 3 main issues though (UK):
1. Would it require planning permission?
2. Does it comply with the aviation regulations?
3. Is it safe?
Briefly:
1. If it is used more than 28 days per year, then probably/possibly. But it may depend a bit what changes are made to the land, if any. It is the use of the land that may require permission
2. This is mainly about Rule 5 of the Rules of the Air - we have had lots of threads about this one. All depends on the surroundings and how your friend flies.
3. If 2 is OK, then you are some of the way there. Lots of factors would determine whether it was sensibly safe. Assuming that your friend is a licensed pilot, his training should give him guidance.
Your friend could always raise this himself of course......
Lots of other people could give more detailed help, but it ends up being case specific.
You are right this has been dealt with before - try a search in Rotorheads. It brings up a number of relevant threads.
There are 3 main issues though (UK):
1. Would it require planning permission?
2. Does it comply with the aviation regulations?
3. Is it safe?
Briefly:
1. If it is used more than 28 days per year, then probably/possibly. But it may depend a bit what changes are made to the land, if any. It is the use of the land that may require permission
2. This is mainly about Rule 5 of the Rules of the Air - we have had lots of threads about this one. All depends on the surroundings and how your friend flies.
3. If 2 is OK, then you are some of the way there. Lots of factors would determine whether it was sensibly safe. Assuming that your friend is a licensed pilot, his training should give him guidance.
Your friend could always raise this himself of course......
Lots of other people could give more detailed help, but it ends up being case specific.
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Planning Issues
Well the real question is Planning and the 28 day rule.
2 Sites have been proposed and planning permission sought.
The same planning comittee for both applications.
Both turned down, First site (adjacent paddock) on noise and protests by local residents. The second at a local airstrip where their planning excludes helicopters and jets. The residents had many letters against the the change for a Helicopter and the local planning comittee agreed with the residents and declined the the appilcation on lost of amenity in an ANOB.
Can somebody answer the following
28 day Rule
Can an aircraft be stored on the site (no hangar etc) without using up the 28 days ie Do Operating days count exclusively.
Has anyone else experienced similar problems and won against a council (and local residents) ?
I am sure that the sites in question meet with aviation regulations and are safe.
Jerry
2 Sites have been proposed and planning permission sought.
The same planning comittee for both applications.
Both turned down, First site (adjacent paddock) on noise and protests by local residents. The second at a local airstrip where their planning excludes helicopters and jets. The residents had many letters against the the change for a Helicopter and the local planning comittee agreed with the residents and declined the the appilcation on lost of amenity in an ANOB.
Can somebody answer the following
28 day Rule
Can an aircraft be stored on the site (no hangar etc) without using up the 28 days ie Do Operating days count exclusively.
Has anyone else experienced similar problems and won against a council (and local residents) ?
I am sure that the sites in question meet with aviation regulations and are safe.
Jerry
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I've often wondered about the 28 day rule. If let's say, your chum sets up 13 separte life interest trusts with himself as life tenant and transfers a slice of land equal to 1/14th of the whole, retaining 1/14th for himself, as each would technically have a different legal owner, ie yourchum number 1 trust, yourchum no2 trust etc, could he operate with impunity on every day of the year just by landing in a different 1/14th sector each day?
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I seem to recall seeing a guide to getting planning permission (and presumably operating safely) from small private strips published by the British Microlight Association.
Might be worth giving them a call on 01869-338888 and seeing if you can beg/buy/borrow or steal a copy.
P
Might be worth giving them a call on 01869-338888 and seeing if you can beg/buy/borrow or steal a copy.
P
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The feedback is interesting but I think the Local residents objecting is the real problem 
Getting the "Locals" and planning office to willingly accept a helicopter operating from these 2 sites must be the goal.
The main issue is noise and the loss of amenity (noise).
For an unlimited budget, local sponsorship, PR would all help but in the real world this will not happen.
The next nearest licensed airfield is about an hour hour away and the benefit of owning a helicopter disappears if you have to spend several hour travelling and then the landing and hangarage costs.
I am sure other people on this forum have been in similar situations and have over come this problem, thier help would be most welcome.
I have searched for other threads "Private Sites" "Planning permission" "helipads" and none have come up with much to help.
The BHAB has a good article about setting up a site but over coming / working with the Planning authorities is not covered
Still hope to hear from somebody who have been through this
Getting the "Locals" and planning office to willingly accept a helicopter operating from these 2 sites must be the goal.
The main issue is noise and the loss of amenity (noise).
For an unlimited budget, local sponsorship, PR would all help but in the real world this will not happen.
The next nearest licensed airfield is about an hour hour away and the benefit of owning a helicopter disappears if you have to spend several hour travelling and then the landing and hangarage costs.
I am sure other people on this forum have been in similar situations and have over come this problem, thier help would be most welcome.
I have searched for other threads "Private Sites" "Planning permission" "helipads" and none have come up with much to help.
The BHAB has a good article about setting up a site but over coming / working with the Planning authorities is not covered
Still hope to hear from somebody who have been through this
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It seems as though your friend's problems lie with NIMBYs rather than complying with aviation safety requirements and good practice, but he would be wise to familiarise himself with the relevant regulations and guides to good practice.
BHAB Sitekeepers Guide which include Helicopter Site Keepers - Guidelines issued by the CAA.
Tudor Owen
BHAB Sitekeepers Guide which include Helicopter Site Keepers - Guidelines issued by the CAA.
Tudor Owen
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 31st Dec 2003 at 03:08.
Senis Semper Fidelis
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Extending your curtlidge would do no harm, but this act in itself could take up to 28 (Council) working days to acheive and will involve a site visit by the planning officer, who will be aware of the problems that you are facing so could be jaundiced in his agreement with extention, I went through this a few years ago to enclose part of a wood with my garden, you'd have thought I wanted to steal their daughters the way they( the planners) went about this site inspection!
Best of luck!
Peter R-B
Best of luck!
Peter R-B
Guys
The 28 day rule is applicable to individual fields. It matters not a jot who owns them.
What you have to consider is the local authority have maps that indicate field boundries, so don't put up lots of fences and take the p***.
The most important aspect to this is - find out what the complaint is. You have the right to see the complaint letters but not from whom. Most will be a noise issue not a planning one.
Remember above all the local planning guys have had to respond to a complaint - be nice and understanding they may well come down on your side. Generally I have found them to lack knowledge on helicopters and the planning laws. Tell them what the law is and be helpful, show them what you do and how long it takes to start up and go. Remind them a strimmer, chainsaw can go on all day !!!!!!!!
Drop me an e mail and i will give out my telephone number for those who want a chat
Happy New Year and have a safe one
The 28 day rule is applicable to individual fields. It matters not a jot who owns them.
What you have to consider is the local authority have maps that indicate field boundries, so don't put up lots of fences and take the p***.
The most important aspect to this is - find out what the complaint is. You have the right to see the complaint letters but not from whom. Most will be a noise issue not a planning one.
Remember above all the local planning guys have had to respond to a complaint - be nice and understanding they may well come down on your side. Generally I have found them to lack knowledge on helicopters and the planning laws. Tell them what the law is and be helpful, show them what you do and how long it takes to start up and go. Remind them a strimmer, chainsaw can go on all day !!!!!!!!
Drop me an e mail and i will give out my telephone number for those who want a chat
Happy New Year and have a safe one
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Thanks for the Feedback
The planning officer has been in favour of the alternative site, a private airstrip, the noise officer has carried out tests and the planning officer recommended that a trial be carried out.
However, the commitee turned it down due the number of letters against the application.
I think the parish council is against the use of helicopters and has carried out a good campaign to stop the change of use.
The interesting thing is that some residents have written in in favour and clearly state that others are not against the use but will not write in.....
The idea of extending the curtilage is great, but I am sure the local resisdents and planning officer will work out what the outcome will be.
I myself have flown into a private site, closer to the village than the airstrip, and the people I spoke to were all in favour.
Maybe an appeal with a bit of shoe leather being used up knocking on doors to get support from those who are not against the use of A helicopter at the airstrip is the way to go....
The planning officer has been in favour of the alternative site, a private airstrip, the noise officer has carried out tests and the planning officer recommended that a trial be carried out.
However, the commitee turned it down due the number of letters against the application.
I think the parish council is against the use of helicopters and has carried out a good campaign to stop the change of use.
The interesting thing is that some residents have written in in favour and clearly state that others are not against the use but will not write in.....
The idea of extending the curtilage is great, but I am sure the local resisdents and planning officer will work out what the outcome will be.
I myself have flown into a private site, closer to the village than the airstrip, and the people I spoke to were all in favour.
Maybe an appeal with a bit of shoe leather being used up knocking on doors to get support from those who are not against the use of A helicopter at the airstrip is the way to go....
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Robbo Jock,
The AOPA is pretty much worthless when it comes to anything dealing with helicopters. I know of several operators who have asked them to create a division for rotorcraft; they just won't do it. Where were they when Heliports were threatened in New Hampshire? NOWHERE... they don't care about rotorcraft... period. If it were a fixed-wing landing strip, they'd have lawyers at your disposal.
In the U.S. there are a lot of options, and the situation is a bit different. Still, it is always a battle (mostly with local ordinance). I won't muddle jerry712731's initial question about U.K. operations on this thread though.
R2
The AOPA is pretty much worthless when it comes to anything dealing with helicopters. I know of several operators who have asked them to create a division for rotorcraft; they just won't do it. Where were they when Heliports were threatened in New Hampshire? NOWHERE... they don't care about rotorcraft... period. If it were a fixed-wing landing strip, they'd have lawyers at your disposal.
In the U.S. there are a lot of options, and the situation is a bit different. Still, it is always a battle (mostly with local ordinance). I won't muddle jerry712731's initial question about U.K. operations on this thread though.
R2
