Is this legal or safe practice?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,777
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a long time FW vet, I know nothing about helio regs. I have no difficulty with anyone operating a helicopter from a field, but don't you have to have CAA certification, fire cover, etc?
I agree with those above, who suggest a friendly chat expressing your concerns and reservations (best on neutral ground - your local pub?). Much better to have an amicable solution than years of neighbourly hostility; it should work, considering you're both pilots...
I agree with those above, who suggest a friendly chat expressing your concerns and reservations (best on neutral ground - your local pub?). Much better to have an amicable solution than years of neighbourly hostility; it should work, considering you're both pilots...
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,635
Received 513 Likes
on
273 Posts
P Watts,
The FATO at EGLW is probably too small for the 109 helipad / vertical profile, just as it is too small for the S-76, so there's no guarantee that the pilot can reject and stop on it. An early forward transition is therefore probably less risky, at least "in the unfortunate event of", the aircraft should ditch level, rather than toppling off the end of the FATO and going in nose first......
It's about time Central London was better served by a larger site or a number of sites, including a proper facility at Heathrow and at Gatwick, but that's a different story.
The FATO at EGLW is probably too small for the 109 helipad / vertical profile, just as it is too small for the S-76, so there's no guarantee that the pilot can reject and stop on it. An early forward transition is therefore probably less risky, at least "in the unfortunate event of", the aircraft should ditch level, rather than toppling off the end of the FATO and going in nose first......
It's about time Central London was better served by a larger site or a number of sites, including a proper facility at Heathrow and at Gatwick, but that's a different story.
FJJP:
Fire cover and the like is only normally required if the site has more than about 5 movements a day AND is used for public transport.
Use of a field for your own private helipad isn't a problem as long as you comply with various planning regs which also apply to the f/w world.
As this is being written from memory with no fact checking, I stand ready to be corrected . . .
Fire cover and the like is only normally required if the site has more than about 5 movements a day AND is used for public transport.
Use of a field for your own private helipad isn't a problem as long as you comply with various planning regs which also apply to the f/w world.
As this is being written from memory with no fact checking, I stand ready to be corrected . . .
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: don't know, I'll ask
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for all your sage advice, and to those that PM'ed me as well on this subject. I have no intention of going round and fighting the man, but it is useful to know in any thing what the boundaries are!
For my own education, can someone clarify the 500 foot rule. I know all about vehicle vessel and structure etc and that technicaly a fence or wall or roadway is a structure. I also know, as a f/w pilot that this is all ignored when lannding at a licenced airfield. Does this apply to Helicopters too? If a helicopter is not landing at a licenced facility, and ignoring maydays etc do they still have to obey the 500 rule on the way up and down?
I know too many stupid questions, but humour me it is christmas
For my own education, can someone clarify the 500 foot rule. I know all about vehicle vessel and structure etc and that technicaly a fence or wall or roadway is a structure. I also know, as a f/w pilot that this is all ignored when lannding at a licenced airfield. Does this apply to Helicopters too? If a helicopter is not landing at a licenced facility, and ignoring maydays etc do they still have to obey the 500 rule on the way up and down?
I know too many stupid questions, but humour me it is christmas
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Chichester, UK
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For my own education, can someone clarify the 500 foot rule. I know all about vehicle vessel and structure etc and that technicaly a fence or wall or roadway is a structure. I also know, as a f/w pilot that this is all ignored when lannding at a licenced airfield.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ludwig
Here is Rule 5.
It has been repeated, with minor changes, in successive Rules of the Air Regulations and is virtually incomprehensible - or, as the CAA eventually conceded, "there is a general view that the rule is long, complex and, potentially, difficult to understand."
A new Rule 5 is likely to appear in 2004, following various consultations which began in 2002.
I'm always happy to help pilots in trouble or in need of help/advice in connection with the legal side of their flying. If you were, I'd clarify the rule in ordinary language - but you're not. You say "it is useful to know in any thing what the boundaries are!" I'm afraid I can't see why it is useful, and remain suspicious that you're trying to obtain ammunition to use in your dispute with your neighbour.
If asked professionally, my personal views are irrelevant and I'd be professionally bound to help; when helping informally, I have a free choice and only in exceptional circumstances would I say anything which might assist against a pilot.
I realise you're an aviator but, sadly, over the years I've encountered quite a few aviators who also fall into the NIMBY category when someone else's flying is in issue.
Obviously I don't know if you're a NIMBY but, since you're still asking for clarification of Rule 5 as it applies to helicopters despite the advice you've already been given, I'm being cautious.
However, since it's Christmas, I'll go this far to save you time: The 500' rule doesn't apply to aircraft landing or taking off in accordance with normal aviation practice.
Rules of the Air Regulations 1996: Rule 5 Low flying
5 (1) Subject to the provisions of paragraphs (2) and (3):
(a) An aircraft other than a helicopter shall not fly over any congested area of a city, town or settlement below:
(i) such height as would enable the aircraft to alight clear of the area and without danger to persons or property on the surface, in the event of failure of a power unit and if such an aircraft is towing a banner such height shall be calculated on the basis that the banner shall not be dropped within the congested area;
or
(ii) a height of 1500 feet above the highest fixed object within 600
metres of the aircraft:
whichever is the higher;
(b) A helicopter shall not fly below such height as would enable it to alight without danger to persons or property on the surface, in the event of failure of a power unit;
(c) Except with the permission in writing of the Authority and in accordance with any conditions therein specified a helicopter shall not fly:
(i) over a congested area of a city, town or settlement below a height of 1500 feet above the highest fixed object within 600 metres of the helicopter; or
(ii) over the area hereinafter specified, below such height as would enable it to alight clear of the area in the event of failure of a power unit, that is to say the area bounded by straight lines
joining successively the following points:
Kew Bridge (N5129.18 W00017.17).
The Eastern extremity of Brent Reservoir (N5134.30 W00014.02).
Gospel Oak Station (N5133.27 W00008.97).
The South East corner of Springfield Park (N5134.12
W00003.20).
Bromley-by-Bow Station (N5131.47 W00000.65).
The South West corner of Hither Green (N5126.72 W00000.63).
Herne Hill Station (N5127.18 W00006.07).
Wimbledon Station (N5125.23 W00012.27).
25 June 2003 Annex C Page 2 of 3
The North West corner of Castelnau Reservoir (N5128.87
W00014.03).
Kew Bridge (N5129.18 W00017.17):
excluding so much of the bed of the River Thames as lies within
that area between the ordinary high water marks on each of its
banks;
(d) (i) Subject to paragraph (ii) an aircraft shall not fly:
(aa) over, or within 1000 metres of, any assembly in the open air of more than 1000 persons assembled for the purpose of witnessing or participating in any organised event, except with the permission in writing of the Authority and in accordance with any conditions therein specified and with the consent in writing of the organisers of the event;
or
(bb) below such height as would enable it to alight clear of the assembly in the event of the failure of a power unit and if such an aircraft is towing a banner such height shall be calculated on the basis that the banner shall not be dropped within 1000 metres of the assembly:
(ii) Where a person is charged with an offence under the Order by reason of a contravention of sub-paragraph (d)(i), it shall be a good defence to prove that the flight of the aircraft over, or within 1000 metres of, the assembly was made at a reasonable height and for a reason not connected with the assembly or with the event which was the occasion for the assembly;
(e) An aircraft shall not fly closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle or structure.
(2)
(a) The provisions of paragraphs (1)(a)(ii) and (1)(c)(i) shall not apply to an aircraft flying:
(i) on a route notified for the purposes of this rule; or
(ii) on a special VFR flight;
unless the aircraft is landing or taking off.
(b) Paragraphs (1)(a)(ii), (1)(c), (1)(d) and (1)(e) shall not apply to an aircraft flying under and in accordance with the terms of a police air operator’s certificate.
(c) Paragraphs (1)(d)(i)(aa) and (1)(e) shall not apply to the flight of an aircraft over or within 1000 metres of an assembly of persons gathered for the purposes of witnessing or participating in an event which consists:
(i) wholly or partly of an aircraft race or contest if the aircraft is taking part in such race or contest or is engaged on a flight arranged by, or made with the consent in writing of, the organisers of the event;
(ii) wholly or partly of a flying display for which a permission under article 61 of the Order is required, if the aircraft is taking part in
such display or is engaged on a flight arranged by or made with
the consent of the organisers of the event and the flight is made:
(aa) in accordance with the terms of a permission granted to
the flying display director under article 61 of the Order;
and
(bb) in accordance with the conditions of a pilot display authorisation granted to the pilot under article 61 of the Order; or
(iii) wholly or principally of a flying display for which a permission under article 61 of the Order is not required, if the aircraft is taking part in such display or is engaged on a flight arranged by or made with the consent of the organisers of the event.
(d) Paragraph (1)(e) shall not apply to:
(i) any aircraft while it is landing or taking off in accordance with
normal aviation practice;
(ii) any glider while it is hill-soaring;
(iii) any aircraft while it is flying in accordance with article 48(3)(f) of the Order;
(iv) any aircraft while it is flying under and in accordance with the terms of an aerial application certificate granted to the operator thereof under article 50 of the Order; or
(v) any aircraft while it is flying for the purpose of picking up or
dropping tow ropes, banners or similar articles at an aerodrome in
accordance with article 47(2) or article 48(3)(e) of the Order.
(3) Nothing in this rule shall prohibit an aircraft from flying in such a manner as is necessary for the purpose of saving life.
(4)
(a) Subject to sub-paragraph (b), nothing in this rule shall prohibit any aircraft from flying in accordance with normal aviation practice, for the purpose of taking off from, landing at or practising approaches to landing at, or checking navigational aids or procedures at, a Government aerodrome, an aerodrome owned or managed by the Authority or a licensed aerodrome in the United Kingdom or at any aerodrome in any other country.
(b) The practising of approaches to landing shall be confined to the airspace customarily used by aircraft when landing or taking off in accordance with normal aviation practice at the aerodrome concerned.
(5) Nothing in this rule shall apply to any captive balloon or kite.
Here is Rule 5.
It has been repeated, with minor changes, in successive Rules of the Air Regulations and is virtually incomprehensible - or, as the CAA eventually conceded, "there is a general view that the rule is long, complex and, potentially, difficult to understand."
A new Rule 5 is likely to appear in 2004, following various consultations which began in 2002.
I'm always happy to help pilots in trouble or in need of help/advice in connection with the legal side of their flying. If you were, I'd clarify the rule in ordinary language - but you're not. You say "it is useful to know in any thing what the boundaries are!" I'm afraid I can't see why it is useful, and remain suspicious that you're trying to obtain ammunition to use in your dispute with your neighbour.
If asked professionally, my personal views are irrelevant and I'd be professionally bound to help; when helping informally, I have a free choice and only in exceptional circumstances would I say anything which might assist against a pilot.
I realise you're an aviator but, sadly, over the years I've encountered quite a few aviators who also fall into the NIMBY category when someone else's flying is in issue.
Obviously I don't know if you're a NIMBY but, since you're still asking for clarification of Rule 5 as it applies to helicopters despite the advice you've already been given, I'm being cautious.
However, since it's Christmas, I'll go this far to save you time: The 500' rule doesn't apply to aircraft landing or taking off in accordance with normal aviation practice.
Rules of the Air Regulations 1996: Rule 5 Low flying
5 (1) Subject to the provisions of paragraphs (2) and (3):
(a) An aircraft other than a helicopter shall not fly over any congested area of a city, town or settlement below:
(i) such height as would enable the aircraft to alight clear of the area and without danger to persons or property on the surface, in the event of failure of a power unit and if such an aircraft is towing a banner such height shall be calculated on the basis that the banner shall not be dropped within the congested area;
or
(ii) a height of 1500 feet above the highest fixed object within 600
metres of the aircraft:
whichever is the higher;
(b) A helicopter shall not fly below such height as would enable it to alight without danger to persons or property on the surface, in the event of failure of a power unit;
(c) Except with the permission in writing of the Authority and in accordance with any conditions therein specified a helicopter shall not fly:
(i) over a congested area of a city, town or settlement below a height of 1500 feet above the highest fixed object within 600 metres of the helicopter; or
(ii) over the area hereinafter specified, below such height as would enable it to alight clear of the area in the event of failure of a power unit, that is to say the area bounded by straight lines
joining successively the following points:
Kew Bridge (N5129.18 W00017.17).
The Eastern extremity of Brent Reservoir (N5134.30 W00014.02).
Gospel Oak Station (N5133.27 W00008.97).
The South East corner of Springfield Park (N5134.12
W00003.20).
Bromley-by-Bow Station (N5131.47 W00000.65).
The South West corner of Hither Green (N5126.72 W00000.63).
Herne Hill Station (N5127.18 W00006.07).
Wimbledon Station (N5125.23 W00012.27).
25 June 2003 Annex C Page 2 of 3
The North West corner of Castelnau Reservoir (N5128.87
W00014.03).
Kew Bridge (N5129.18 W00017.17):
excluding so much of the bed of the River Thames as lies within
that area between the ordinary high water marks on each of its
banks;
(d) (i) Subject to paragraph (ii) an aircraft shall not fly:
(aa) over, or within 1000 metres of, any assembly in the open air of more than 1000 persons assembled for the purpose of witnessing or participating in any organised event, except with the permission in writing of the Authority and in accordance with any conditions therein specified and with the consent in writing of the organisers of the event;
or
(bb) below such height as would enable it to alight clear of the assembly in the event of the failure of a power unit and if such an aircraft is towing a banner such height shall be calculated on the basis that the banner shall not be dropped within 1000 metres of the assembly:
(ii) Where a person is charged with an offence under the Order by reason of a contravention of sub-paragraph (d)(i), it shall be a good defence to prove that the flight of the aircraft over, or within 1000 metres of, the assembly was made at a reasonable height and for a reason not connected with the assembly or with the event which was the occasion for the assembly;
(e) An aircraft shall not fly closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle or structure.
(2)
(a) The provisions of paragraphs (1)(a)(ii) and (1)(c)(i) shall not apply to an aircraft flying:
(i) on a route notified for the purposes of this rule; or
(ii) on a special VFR flight;
unless the aircraft is landing or taking off.
(b) Paragraphs (1)(a)(ii), (1)(c), (1)(d) and (1)(e) shall not apply to an aircraft flying under and in accordance with the terms of a police air operator’s certificate.
(c) Paragraphs (1)(d)(i)(aa) and (1)(e) shall not apply to the flight of an aircraft over or within 1000 metres of an assembly of persons gathered for the purposes of witnessing or participating in an event which consists:
(i) wholly or partly of an aircraft race or contest if the aircraft is taking part in such race or contest or is engaged on a flight arranged by, or made with the consent in writing of, the organisers of the event;
(ii) wholly or partly of a flying display for which a permission under article 61 of the Order is required, if the aircraft is taking part in
such display or is engaged on a flight arranged by or made with
the consent of the organisers of the event and the flight is made:
(aa) in accordance with the terms of a permission granted to
the flying display director under article 61 of the Order;
and
(bb) in accordance with the conditions of a pilot display authorisation granted to the pilot under article 61 of the Order; or
(iii) wholly or principally of a flying display for which a permission under article 61 of the Order is not required, if the aircraft is taking part in such display or is engaged on a flight arranged by or made with the consent of the organisers of the event.
(d) Paragraph (1)(e) shall not apply to:
(i) any aircraft while it is landing or taking off in accordance with
normal aviation practice;
(ii) any glider while it is hill-soaring;
(iii) any aircraft while it is flying in accordance with article 48(3)(f) of the Order;
(iv) any aircraft while it is flying under and in accordance with the terms of an aerial application certificate granted to the operator thereof under article 50 of the Order; or
(v) any aircraft while it is flying for the purpose of picking up or
dropping tow ropes, banners or similar articles at an aerodrome in
accordance with article 47(2) or article 48(3)(e) of the Order.
(3) Nothing in this rule shall prohibit an aircraft from flying in such a manner as is necessary for the purpose of saving life.
(4)
(a) Subject to sub-paragraph (b), nothing in this rule shall prohibit any aircraft from flying in accordance with normal aviation practice, for the purpose of taking off from, landing at or practising approaches to landing at, or checking navigational aids or procedures at, a Government aerodrome, an aerodrome owned or managed by the Authority or a licensed aerodrome in the United Kingdom or at any aerodrome in any other country.
(b) The practising of approaches to landing shall be confined to the airspace customarily used by aircraft when landing or taking off in accordance with normal aviation practice at the aerodrome concerned.
(5) Nothing in this rule shall apply to any captive balloon or kite.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 23rd Dec 2003 at 18:59.
