Parachute for Choppers!!!
I'm not sure much is in the public domain on that incident (although I seem to remember a good write up in Mod(PE)'s, "feedback" circa 1998), but it happened just as it was being proposed to remove the requirement for flight test crews in helos to carry parachutes - since nobody had ever used them. That particular proposal has, unsurprisingly, not seen the light of day since.
You were probably looking for something more frivolous, but either a "crew" or "department" are the usual collective nouns for TPs and FTEs.
G
You were probably looking for something more frivolous, but either a "crew" or "department" are the usual collective nouns for TPs and FTEs.
G
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Another good man bites the dust....
Apparently, Nick L knows test pilots who've bailed out of uncontrollable machines...
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The parachute didn't work in another instance. The mechanic bail out but it was fatal for the test pilot, Dave Driskill, America’s first licensed helicopter pilot. It was also fatal for the Kellett helicopter company which "never recovered from the dire financial straits caused by the crash."
Intermeshing - Kellett XR-8 & XR-10
Intermeshing - Kellett XR-8 & XR-10
Avoid imitations
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Baling out? Used to be an RAF requirement to carry chutes in helis if going above a certain altitude (10,000ft?) - they once suffered a catastrophic fire in a helicopter (magnesium skinned Wessex I think it was) that burned out before it landed in autorotation.
However, I went completely off the idea of baling out as soon as I read the abandonment drill in the Flight Reference Cards for the Whirlwind 10.
There was a caveat at the bottom of the same FRC page which said words to the effect that "Warning: objects jettisoned from the aircraft in autorotative flight may contact the main rotor blades".
However, I went completely off the idea of baling out as soon as I read the abandonment drill in the Flight Reference Cards for the Whirlwind 10.
There was a caveat at the bottom of the same FRC page which said words to the effect that "Warning: objects jettisoned from the aircraft in autorotative flight may contact the main rotor blades".
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Doesn't there come a point where you stay home if you can't trust the primary structure of your flying machine?
Stated another way:
Assuming that the parachute for the aircraft weighs 150 lbs (a real challenge) how much stronger and safer would the rotor be if you put that weight into the helicopter to make it stronger and safer to begin with?
Or a third way, If the spare tire in your car cost you a passenger would you carry one?
Stated another way:
Assuming that the parachute for the aircraft weighs 150 lbs (a real challenge) how much stronger and safer would the rotor be if you put that weight into the helicopter to make it stronger and safer to begin with?
Or a third way, If the spare tire in your car cost you a passenger would you carry one?
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Someone's having a laugh!
Speaking with some humilty but with a few thousand hours of rotary time (including poxy piston jobs) and several hundred para-jumps, this is a dozy idea..... always has been and always will be. On the other hand, why not secure marshmallows to the skids to soften the impact of EOLs? Sorry..... someone's having a laugh! bm
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WHAT A CRAZY IDEA
SPEAKING AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS SUCCESSFULLY AUTOED A 206 AFTER ENGINE FAILURE WITH A 100' LINE ON WITH 400KGS OF WATER IN IT...... GIVE ME AUTO ANY TIME
YOU HAVE FULL CONTROL EVEN AT 85% ROTOR RPM
MAN DOES THAT RRPM DROP QUICK...........................
SPEAKING AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS SUCCESSFULLY AUTOED A 206 AFTER ENGINE FAILURE WITH A 100' LINE ON WITH 400KGS OF WATER IN IT...... GIVE ME AUTO ANY TIME
YOU HAVE FULL CONTROL EVEN AT 85% ROTOR RPM
MAN DOES THAT RRPM DROP QUICK...........................
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Nick,
The start of your post make good sense, but this last sentence is a little worrying.
"Or a third way, If the spare tire in your car cost you a passenger would you carry one?"
You're not suggesting that the extra passenger could be tied around the wheel rim, if the tire fails.
Are you
.
Dave
The start of your post make good sense, but this last sentence is a little worrying.
"Or a third way, If the spare tire in your car cost you a passenger would you carry one?"
You're not suggesting that the extra passenger could be tied around the wheel rim, if the tire fails.
Are you
. Dave
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I gave this a lot of thought..
To: Dave Jackson
It all depends on the urgency of the trip and who the passenger is.
It all depends on the urgency of the trip and who the passenger is.
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Parachute for helos?
I seem to recall a trial for ejection seats for helicopters back in the '70s. The rotorhead was designed with explosive charges on the blade roots to shed the blades in unison at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions This was for a four bladed rotor with blades 1 and 3 being shed and then 2 and 4 as soon as they reached the same point.
Once all the blades were gone and without the pesky rotor disk ready to "CHOPPER" your head off, the Martin Baker ejection seat did its job just like in planks. I would guess that the same system, if it was plausible and viable, could be used... by why bother?
In my VERY humble opinion and being a Chinook driver with a number of parachute jumps under my belt, I'd only bale out of a Chook if I could take a very fast running jump down the cabin and dive off the ramp past the aft rotor...
Otherwise my choice is to take the baby all the way to the ground.
Here's hoping we are never in a situation where we are thinking that a parachute would have been a good idea.
CB
Once all the blades were gone and without the pesky rotor disk ready to "CHOPPER" your head off, the Martin Baker ejection seat did its job just like in planks. I would guess that the same system, if it was plausible and viable, could be used... by why bother?
In my VERY humble opinion and being a Chinook driver with a number of parachute jumps under my belt, I'd only bale out of a Chook if I could take a very fast running jump down the cabin and dive off the ramp past the aft rotor...
Otherwise my choice is to take the baby all the way to the ground.
Here's hoping we are never in a situation where we are thinking that a parachute would have been a good idea.
CB
Apparently, Nick L knows test pilots who've bailed out of uncontrollable machines...
I seem to remember a "bunch" of FTEs and TPs bailing out from one of the prototype Merlins that crapped itself at altitude - all survived
He was a Sikorsky test pilot and his name was Obie Blanchard. He didn't survive as he got caught in the spinning rotors when the falling helicoter flew into his shroud lines.
In 1976 a helicopter acted in 1000ft as a training target to fighterjets. One of the jetjockeys was really hot and dropped below the safety distance and height to the helicopter. Short a midair with 2 chutes on the blue sky and a big firework on the ground from the downed and burning jet. On one chute was the ace and on the other the helicopter PIC. The helicopter was hitted on the main rotorblades and lost some outer bladeparts. The normal result was a tumbling and heavy vibrating chopper, in deep trouble to disintegrate complete in the air. The PIC ordered the crew to an immediate rescue parachute jump, dropped his sidedoor and out he was. The copilot dropped also his door and was going to jump, but in this moment he was gripped by the engineer. This SOB was searching for his chute because he feeled to be on a pleasure flight and wasn't linked to his chute, again orders. Thats more comfortable! The copilot was able to sail down the fluttering and nearly uncontrollable ship to mother earth in one piece but that was changed in several loops on the ground. All 4 soldiers survived only minor injured! Against rumours the fighterpilot wasn't awarded for an airvictory.
Today helicopters are much more improved. But with an old ship in case of an complete electrical failure on IFR or engine failure in the dark night, i would prefer the chute.
Last edited by tecpilot; 5th May 2005 at 18:31.
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Hmm, good thread. Ghengis has a good point, regarding automatic entry into auto:
"In a helicopter, an RPM drop sensor combined with a weight-on-skids switch would probably do the job and be fairly easy to mechanise."
I'm all for reliable auto pilot safety aids...
Haven't done it for a while, but i used to enjoy gliding. Wind gradient often presented fun on "extended" approaches. Pretty much everyone i knew had a "heavy landing" story, i'm afraid i'm no exception
. Stall speed (what's that? ) was about 40, so low energy stuff - but i often wondered if an airbag would help to keep the options open. It's webbed now so ya caint patent it! 
In a heli it could double as a buoyancy aid for forced single-eng VRF sorties over water, but would be ideal below the H-V curve. The best trigger i thought of was an altimeter activated ground dopplar radar or sonar. The best design a multicelled bag, with pressure relief tearouts. It assumes that the aircraft gets to the ground in fairly large chunks, under vague control.
I'm curious as to R22 muster pilots views on that one...
Mart
"In a helicopter, an RPM drop sensor combined with a weight-on-skids switch would probably do the job and be fairly easy to mechanise."
I'm all for reliable auto pilot safety aids...
Haven't done it for a while, but i used to enjoy gliding. Wind gradient often presented fun on "extended" approaches. Pretty much everyone i knew had a "heavy landing" story, i'm afraid i'm no exception
. Stall speed (what's that? ) was about 40, so low energy stuff - but i often wondered if an airbag would help to keep the options open. It's webbed now so ya caint patent it! In a heli it could double as a buoyancy aid for forced single-eng VRF sorties over water, but would be ideal below the H-V curve. The best trigger i thought of was an altimeter activated ground dopplar radar or sonar. The best design a multicelled bag, with pressure relief tearouts. It assumes that the aircraft gets to the ground in fairly large chunks, under vague control.
I'm curious as to R22 muster pilots views on that one...
Mart
Last edited by Graviman; 5th May 2005 at 21:50.
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parachute?
Gravimans suggestion for an airbag makes more sense to me. Think of the guys that went over Niagra falls in a barrel and survived. Maybe advanced crash structure as in all modern cars is the way. Structural steel that absorbs the impact in a progressive manner. Parachutes only work if you are at some altitude, crashes often occur with little warning.
Russian technology one step behind western?
The Ka-50 is the world's first operational helicopter with a rescue ejection system, which allows pilots to escape at all altitudes and speeds. The K-37-800 Rocket Assisted Ejection System is manufactured by the Zvezda Research and Production Enterprise Joint Stock Company in the Moscow Region. The seat operates by pulling the pilot from the helicopter cabin using a solid-propellant rocket motor. The system comprises the seat, a control unit and a pullout rocket motor. The seat is fitted with a survival pack containing an NAZ-7M survival kit, a life raft and a PS-37A parachute system. The seat provides safe forced emergency escape from helicopters in the speed range 0 to 350 km/hour and at altitude 0 to 6,000 metres. The seat also provides safe ejection during inverted flight (at speeds 0 to 330 km/h with zero vertical velocity) at a minimum altitude of 90 metres. Pilot is ejected in max. six seconds.
The Ka-50 is the world's first operational helicopter with a rescue ejection system, which allows pilots to escape at all altitudes and speeds. The K-37-800 Rocket Assisted Ejection System is manufactured by the Zvezda Research and Production Enterprise Joint Stock Company in the Moscow Region. The seat operates by pulling the pilot from the helicopter cabin using a solid-propellant rocket motor. The system comprises the seat, a control unit and a pullout rocket motor. The seat is fitted with a survival pack containing an NAZ-7M survival kit, a life raft and a PS-37A parachute system. The seat provides safe forced emergency escape from helicopters in the speed range 0 to 350 km/hour and at altitude 0 to 6,000 metres. The seat also provides safe ejection during inverted flight (at speeds 0 to 330 km/h with zero vertical velocity) at a minimum altitude of 90 metres. Pilot is ejected in max. six seconds.
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"...advanced crash structure as in all modern cars..."
Actually the whole thing started when an aviator (Hugh DeHaven) survived a mid-air collision, and wondered why his opposite number didn't....
I certainly think that perhaps it is time to at least investigate design for crash survivability in light aircraft / helos. Amusingly, i spent some years as a crash design engineer (specialised in simulation, Rover 75) - interesting stuff, but not engines. Basically the biggest problem becomes how to package air! You need crush space to deccelerate "occupants" from impact speed to zero, while staying below 40g (assuming well restrained) - this is why you can generally wave your hand around the engine bay in NCAP compliant cars (ignoring plasticky stuff). The really clever bit is to have structure that is light, deforms progressively, and doesn't go to pieces if overloaded - this way even a real bad'un gives the guy a fighting chance...
At an interview with BAE, i was genuinely suprised that wings were not tested to absolute failure - i know of one 747 incident where crew pulled 7g out of a dive, but still landed one banana shaped Boeing...
Mart
Actually the whole thing started when an aviator (Hugh DeHaven) survived a mid-air collision, and wondered why his opposite number didn't....
I certainly think that perhaps it is time to at least investigate design for crash survivability in light aircraft / helos. Amusingly, i spent some years as a crash design engineer (specialised in simulation, Rover 75) - interesting stuff, but not engines. Basically the biggest problem becomes how to package air! You need crush space to deccelerate "occupants" from impact speed to zero, while staying below 40g (assuming well restrained) - this is why you can generally wave your hand around the engine bay in NCAP compliant cars (ignoring plasticky stuff). The really clever bit is to have structure that is light, deforms progressively, and doesn't go to pieces if overloaded - this way even a real bad'un gives the guy a fighting chance...
At an interview with BAE, i was genuinely suprised that wings were not tested to absolute failure - i know of one 747 incident where crew pulled 7g out of a dive, but still landed one banana shaped Boeing...
Mart
