Does your airline allow night time visual approaches?
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Does your airline allow night time visual approaches?
Not allowed where I work after a very serious incident which was only saved by the GPWS, at an airport the Pilot was familiar with.737NG.
I've had to do proceedure holds and add 30-40 track miles onto an approach without need in my view, on some coastal airports where we were over the sea and could see eveything including the runway lights and PAPIs. I find it regrettable that we simply have an outright ban rather then more suitable conditions.
I'd be interested to hear from Pilots of Jet or large Turbo Prop operators in the airline environment on what your companies rules are?
I've had to do proceedure holds and add 30-40 track miles onto an approach without need in my view, on some coastal airports where we were over the sea and could see eveything including the runway lights and PAPIs. I find it regrettable that we simply have an outright ban rather then more suitable conditions.
I'd be interested to hear from Pilots of Jet or large Turbo Prop operators in the airline environment on what your companies rules are?
Allowed as long as runway/approach lights remain in view and line of flight= line of sight..so certainly not an issue in the case of a coastal airport where the base turn is over the sea (operator of Heavies and smaller).
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Large bizjet operator and adhere to the blanket ban on night visual approaches.
Some would assume that our type of ops would be more flexible than the airlines regarding such procedures. However, alot of our destinations are first time visits so not such a bad idea.
Some would assume that our type of ops would be more flexible than the airlines regarding such procedures. However, alot of our destinations are first time visits so not such a bad idea.
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Night visual approaches
If the runway is served by a glideslope/localizer that guidance must be tuned and displayed; we do LNAV/VNAV approaches, good sense would say that guidance should be displayed as well. If all of the other regulatory parameters are met, then we are permitted to fly a night VMC visual approach to any runway we serve. We do them all the time. International/domestic 737 (classic & NG) operations.
There have been many notable incidents and no doubt accidents involving night visual approaches.
Ref “Celebrating TAWS ‘Saves’: But lessons still to be learnt”, see incidents 1, 3-5, and 7-8.
Also, see issues and discussion here - Unstable Approaches. Action item VII.
Stabilised Approach - Good Practices.
Ref “Celebrating TAWS ‘Saves’: But lessons still to be learnt”, see incidents 1, 3-5, and 7-8.
Also, see issues and discussion here - Unstable Approaches. Action item VII.
Stabilised Approach - Good Practices.
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Even "line of sight" does not gurantee terrain clearance with some heavy types due to body angle, also if terrain clearance is marginal this does not allow for any hiccups.
Er yes, ....thats why I mentioned that word "Airmanship" - now much out of favour these days....
BTW surely you're more interested in the line of sight = Flight Path vector.... can you clarify the relevance of Body Angle - at the end of the day though you've still got to make sure you've got the clearance to get the body gear clears the bumps
? And if your cutting it that fine you shouldn't be there top start with - back to the "Airmanship" word
BTW surely you're more interested in the line of sight = Flight Path vector.... can you clarify the relevance of Body Angle - at the end of the day though you've still got to make sure you've got the clearance to get the body gear clears the bumps
? And if your cutting it that fine you shouldn't be there top start with - back to the "Airmanship" word
If you can't fly an approach in VMC at night then there is something very wrong with your piloting skills. Company bans on such a practice shows little faith in their own selection and training programmes.
wiggy, what exactly is this ‘airmanship’ that will save us from terrain. Which particular aspects of our professional behavior do we have to call on to keep us safe? 
If airmanship is ‘out of favour’, i.e. not much of it about, then perhaps not allowing some operations is a good safety defense.
Flight Path Vector – Yes, I agree, it’s important. But if you can’t see what you are going to hit, then knowing where you are going/pointing is of little use. Thus, always keep the runway in sight (beware illusions), check altitude against range, dispaly the EGPWS map, and if there is a procedure / ILS use all the aids available.
Private jet, it’s not the ‘flying’ skills per se that prevent CFIT (excepting the pull up manoeuvre), it’s more of the thinking skills of planning, checking, following procedures, and judgement which keep us safe. Yes, these need to be taught and practiced, but you don’t need a real nighttime terrain encounter to do that.
If airmanship is ‘out of favour’, i.e. not much of it about, then perhaps not allowing some operations is a good safety defense.
Flight Path Vector – Yes, I agree, it’s important. But if you can’t see what you are going to hit, then knowing where you are going/pointing is of little use. Thus, always keep the runway in sight (beware illusions), check altitude against range, dispaly the EGPWS map, and if there is a procedure / ILS use all the aids available.
Private jet, it’s not the ‘flying’ skills per se that prevent CFIT (excepting the pull up manoeuvre), it’s more of the thinking skills of planning, checking, following procedures, and judgement which keep us safe. Yes, these need to be taught and practiced, but you don’t need a real nighttime terrain encounter to do that.
PEI_3721,
Yes, i wasn't too clear there, thats what i was alluding to when i said "piloting skills"; airmanship et al. Not just the hands on stuff. I know there are some specific, difficult airfields that require specific briefing and training for a viz approach but to have a blanket ban is surely indicative of the lack of total trust some operators must have in the people crewing their aircraft, especially very experienced captains. If these manoevers are prohibited it becomes a catch 22 situation of less experience results in less skills etc etc
Yes, i wasn't too clear there, thats what i was alluding to when i said "piloting skills"; airmanship et al. Not just the hands on stuff. I know there are some specific, difficult airfields that require specific briefing and training for a viz approach but to have a blanket ban is surely indicative of the lack of total trust some operators must have in the people crewing their aircraft, especially very experienced captains. If these manoevers are prohibited it becomes a catch 22 situation of less experience results in less skills etc etc
