FAA getting fed up with JAA intransigence
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FAA getting fed up with JAA intransigence
Just had lunch with a fairly senior FAA bloke who was telling me the FAA is planning to make it a lot harder for JAA training to be conducted in the US unless the JAA relaxes it's requirements to convert. Right now, the FAA will convert any ICAO PPL to an FAA one, and expects reciprocity. Apparenently, negotiaions have broken down between the two.
Also, the FAA is thinking of changing the wording in 61.87 to prevent JAA instructors in the US training a student, then fobbing them off to an FAA instructor for solo and solo X-C privledges.
Might be rather interesting if an NPR comes out on the subject...
Also, the FAA is thinking of changing the wording in 61.87 to prevent JAA instructors in the US training a student, then fobbing them off to an FAA instructor for solo and solo X-C privledges.
Might be rather interesting if an NPR comes out on the subject...
Guest
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Not sure how they could do this. I doubt it would be hard for the JAA instuctors to get an FAA instructor certificate, and then they can do whatever training they like (just have the student keep 2 logbooks--one with the instructor's FAA cert #, and one with the JAA cert # on the entries)
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Good. At long last British General Aviation and the Flying Schools/Clubs of the nation will stop being undermined by Uncle Sam and his incredibly cheap petroleum.
Let them choke on their own filthy air pollution I say. The FAA will have to adjust to the fact they are no longer the de facto arbitars of all thing aviation.
But hang on! I thought the US was desperately worrried about the pilot shortage and they even have Senator John McCain running a committe to look at the problem. Locking the door more firmly seems a bad idea...
WWW
Let them choke on their own filthy air pollution I say. The FAA will have to adjust to the fact they are no longer the de facto arbitars of all thing aviation.
But hang on! I thought the US was desperately worrried about the pilot shortage and they even have Senator John McCain running a committe to look at the problem. Locking the door more firmly seems a bad idea...
WWW
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It's always nice dealing with the FAA ,that is if your used to dealing with the CAA orany other JAA organisation.
I have flown in lots of county's in the world,mostly of my work.
But if i want to fly for fun i always go to the USA because it's still enjoyable overthere.
I have tried Europe but it's to much hassel.
Neil
I have flown in lots of county's in the world,mostly of my work.
But if i want to fly for fun i always go to the USA because it's still enjoyable overthere.
I have tried Europe but it's to much hassel.
Neil
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All european licensed instructors working at WMU have all got FAA licenses and instructor ratings anyway. It is a requirement to instruct on a US registered aircraft anyway regardless what licence is sought after.I can not see the FAA ever making it harder for them to operate there, in fact the opposite would be the case, they have already had a lot of political support when the JAR tryed to insist on all training in Europe. One thing the yanks are good at is ensuring that the money always flows in their direction and if a trade sanction or a general dummy spit is reguired well so be it. Sounds like they are just trying to negotiate some extras which they will never get with the usual negotiating style of threats.
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Considering the forum that we are currently in, I'm saddened that the only comments are the International politics of FAA v. JAA (again) and nothing about the financial burden that may be imposed on those who CHOOSE to train in the USA.
Whilst in Florida I dropped in to Naples Air Center earlier this month - and a member of the UK CAA (from Battleship House) was there completing his PPL (after struggling to complete in the UK)...says something, doesn't it?
(Edit was for typo)
[This message has been edited by Bear Cub (edited 31 March 2001).]
Whilst in Florida I dropped in to Naples Air Center earlier this month - and a member of the UK CAA (from Battleship House) was there completing his PPL (after struggling to complete in the UK)...says something, doesn't it?
(Edit was for typo)
[This message has been edited by Bear Cub (edited 31 March 2001).]
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Dissapointed to see this same crappy "my fists are bigger than yours" windup to start again.It seems that there are people that think that they are better than others only because they where trained in an other part of the world. Does not say a lot about the whole lot.
JJ
JJ
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I know that I've commented on this before; then my comments were mistakenly held as a general criticism of US PPL training. This was a misunderstanding;I was complaining at the specific level of so-called training given to several PPLs in the US who I'd subsequently been converting in the UK.
However, there seem to be several factors involved:
1. Fuel is much, much cheaper in the US.
2. GA is encouraged in the US; in the UK it is grudgingly tolerated if you're lucky!
3. The weather is more predictable in the US.
4. It is easier to set up business in the US.
5. Accommodation is cheap and plentiful in the US; in the UK only business people use hotels etc apart from holiday makers, because you can normally get from where you live to where you're going within one day virtually anywhere in the UK.
6. Aircraft used for training in the US have less-stringent A&E maintenance requirements than they do in the UK - and are cheaper to acquire in the first place.
Put all this together and it is easy for an unscrupulous school with a 'tame' examiner on the payroll to set up in business as a PPL farm and churn out 'instant PPL' pilots who really haven't been given adequate training and who have only passed the Skill Test by being examined by the tame examiner who is in the pocket of the PPL farm. Nothing to do with FAA/JAA politics, just market economics. It is obvious that if you can peddle your flying school as being able to provide a JAR-FCL PPL cheaper and quicker than it would be able to in the UK, then you're going to attract larger numbers of applicants. Now get greedy and employ cheap and dodgy instructors, cut down on your maintenance costs, get your students solo asap to struggle through the course with the minimum number of dual hours so that the 'instructor' can 'instruct' another poor $od. Pay your tame examiner by the Skill Test rather than give him/her a salary....it all adds up.
Pesonally, I can't understand why, if you can't take a UK driving licence test outside the UK, it should be acceptable to take a UK flying licence test outside the UK! I also think that there needs to be some convergence between the FAA and JAA; some of the JAA 'theoretical knowledge' requirements are simply barking, perhaps the FAA goes too far the other way. The only way the UK can compete in the current climate is to slash fuel duty and VAT for training flying. The National PPL will also aim to reduce costs; it is hoped that suitable caveats will be put in place which will prevent 'unscrupulous' foreign flight schools trying to train pilots for the NPPL. This will not be 'restrictive practice', but a safety initiative. All training organisations, FIs and FEs intending to teach for the NPPL will have to be approved by the NPPL governing body. So that nasty piece of work and his smart@r$e lawyers itching to sue can think again - you know who you are!!
[This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 31 March 2001).]
However, there seem to be several factors involved:
1. Fuel is much, much cheaper in the US.
2. GA is encouraged in the US; in the UK it is grudgingly tolerated if you're lucky!
3. The weather is more predictable in the US.
4. It is easier to set up business in the US.
5. Accommodation is cheap and plentiful in the US; in the UK only business people use hotels etc apart from holiday makers, because you can normally get from where you live to where you're going within one day virtually anywhere in the UK.
6. Aircraft used for training in the US have less-stringent A&E maintenance requirements than they do in the UK - and are cheaper to acquire in the first place.
Put all this together and it is easy for an unscrupulous school with a 'tame' examiner on the payroll to set up in business as a PPL farm and churn out 'instant PPL' pilots who really haven't been given adequate training and who have only passed the Skill Test by being examined by the tame examiner who is in the pocket of the PPL farm. Nothing to do with FAA/JAA politics, just market economics. It is obvious that if you can peddle your flying school as being able to provide a JAR-FCL PPL cheaper and quicker than it would be able to in the UK, then you're going to attract larger numbers of applicants. Now get greedy and employ cheap and dodgy instructors, cut down on your maintenance costs, get your students solo asap to struggle through the course with the minimum number of dual hours so that the 'instructor' can 'instruct' another poor $od. Pay your tame examiner by the Skill Test rather than give him/her a salary....it all adds up.
Pesonally, I can't understand why, if you can't take a UK driving licence test outside the UK, it should be acceptable to take a UK flying licence test outside the UK! I also think that there needs to be some convergence between the FAA and JAA; some of the JAA 'theoretical knowledge' requirements are simply barking, perhaps the FAA goes too far the other way. The only way the UK can compete in the current climate is to slash fuel duty and VAT for training flying. The National PPL will also aim to reduce costs; it is hoped that suitable caveats will be put in place which will prevent 'unscrupulous' foreign flight schools trying to train pilots for the NPPL. This will not be 'restrictive practice', but a safety initiative. All training organisations, FIs and FEs intending to teach for the NPPL will have to be approved by the NPPL governing body. So that nasty piece of work and his smart@r$e lawyers itching to sue can think again - you know who you are!!
[This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 31 March 2001).]
Guest
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It's easy to see why the FAA are getting hacked off by JAA protectionism. They really must be sitting there wondering what the hell is going on amongst the JAA mameber States who can't even agree amongst themselves let alone the rest of the world!.
The fact of the matter is that the FAA are not some tin pot organisation who don't give a damn about standards or saftey! They are efficient, it's as simple as that! Now efficient is a word you can't use to describe CAA or JAA!
Beagle makes some very good points regarding why GA is a sucsess in the States and he is dead right.
If we had the weather , low fuel prices and a positive attitude to GA, there would be dozens of schools starting up here, many of them with the same failings as some the well known Florida cowboys.
To decry all US training and be even slightly surprised at the FAA's reaction to the farce that is JAA, I have to say is small minded. Sad cries of 'it's not fair' and 'we're not playing co's they've got it right and we've got it wrong' are all to common on this site.
The NPPL is fine, and as Beagle says kind of is on a parallel with not sitting your driving licence outside the UK. However, for those that wish to fly further than 100miles from home base, why shouldn't you be able sit your licence outside our tiny little island?
It's a big world out there..and that's what planes are for!
The fact of the matter is that the FAA are not some tin pot organisation who don't give a damn about standards or saftey! They are efficient, it's as simple as that! Now efficient is a word you can't use to describe CAA or JAA!
Beagle makes some very good points regarding why GA is a sucsess in the States and he is dead right.
If we had the weather , low fuel prices and a positive attitude to GA, there would be dozens of schools starting up here, many of them with the same failings as some the well known Florida cowboys.
To decry all US training and be even slightly surprised at the FAA's reaction to the farce that is JAA, I have to say is small minded. Sad cries of 'it's not fair' and 'we're not playing co's they've got it right and we've got it wrong' are all to common on this site.
The NPPL is fine, and as Beagle says kind of is on a parallel with not sitting your driving licence outside the UK. However, for those that wish to fly further than 100miles from home base, why shouldn't you be able sit your licence outside our tiny little island?
It's a big world out there..and that's what planes are for!
Guest
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FAAJAA.
The FAA do not convert a PPL as you put it, they issue a Restricted PPL on the basis of a JAA or other National PPL. IN the UK it is less onerous than that, you can quite simply fly on your foreign PPL no conversion required.
If a JAA licence holder wants an unrestricted FAA PPL then you have to take Tests, by the same token if a FAA PPL holder wants a JAA licence you also have to take tests, where is the difference. You do not have to convert a licence when you can continue to exercise the privileges of your national licence.
The major problems associated with the JAA are quite simple, underfunding by all States involved. A limited number of people trying to do a mamouth task with little support from the major players and in many cases, with inappropriate qualifications. Throw in a bit of nationalism, no a lot of nationalism, a few political ideals and you finish up with European aviation being run from a Post Office Box in Holland.
The FAA do not convert a PPL as you put it, they issue a Restricted PPL on the basis of a JAA or other National PPL. IN the UK it is less onerous than that, you can quite simply fly on your foreign PPL no conversion required.
If a JAA licence holder wants an unrestricted FAA PPL then you have to take Tests, by the same token if a FAA PPL holder wants a JAA licence you also have to take tests, where is the difference. You do not have to convert a licence when you can continue to exercise the privileges of your national licence.
The major problems associated with the JAA are quite simple, underfunding by all States involved. A limited number of people trying to do a mamouth task with little support from the major players and in many cases, with inappropriate qualifications. Throw in a bit of nationalism, no a lot of nationalism, a few political ideals and you finish up with European aviation being run from a Post Office Box in Holland.
Guest
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Talk about old axes to grind and big chips on..
Just a few questions
It would be unusual and obviously more expensive but do the FAA allow people to take their tests, with FAA examiners, outside the U.S. and, as this is the big issue, in Europe?
Also, as JAA examiners and schools training for JAA must be subject to exactly the same requirements and checked by the CAA etc., wherever they operate, why would all JAA training and tests in Florida or California be better/worse or easier/harder than those in Europe?
Are there no schools or 'clubs' with dodgy instructors and tame examiners in England, France, Italy, Spain etc.?
Just a few questions
It would be unusual and obviously more expensive but do the FAA allow people to take their tests, with FAA examiners, outside the U.S. and, as this is the big issue, in Europe?
Also, as JAA examiners and schools training for JAA must be subject to exactly the same requirements and checked by the CAA etc., wherever they operate, why would all JAA training and tests in Florida or California be better/worse or easier/harder than those in Europe?
Are there no schools or 'clubs' with dodgy instructors and tame examiners in England, France, Italy, Spain etc.?
Guest
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whatever they decide, whatever they do, they want our money!
the problem is not to get a FAA or JAA license but it s to get a job!right?
the problem come from the Immigartion(called INS in the USA)
If EU guys decide to go to USA to learn to fly, the INS should let them to work in the US.And same with US guys willing to fly and work in Europe.
I do nt mind if i see a US pilot flying for British airways, if we can fly for a US carrier.
anyway, it s always the same stories, i do nt count to much on these stupid politiciansI continue to fly and I will continue to make money because it s my job and i like it!!!
the problem is not to get a FAA or JAA license but it s to get a job!right?
the problem come from the Immigartion(called INS in the USA)
If EU guys decide to go to USA to learn to fly, the INS should let them to work in the US.And same with US guys willing to fly and work in Europe.
I do nt mind if i see a US pilot flying for British airways, if we can fly for a US carrier.
anyway, it s always the same stories, i do nt count to much on these stupid politiciansI continue to fly and I will continue to make money because it s my job and i like it!!!
Guest
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By comparison with the US, the UK aviation industry is small. Why would the US allow unrestricted movement of pilot jobs to UK pilots? There'd be movement alright, but it'd all be westward. Very few US pilots would want to work in the UK, given the general higher cost of living and lower pay at majors.
It's not the US's fault that the cost of training is so high in the UK. Examine your own government policies and taxes.
Pilot training in reputable US schools is just fine. More practical and less theoretical than the UK, but we seem to be doing just fine. Maybe pilot licenses don't need to be gold plated to be effective?
Stop bleating about US aviation and square-away the UK training industry. I've always been able to tell where the good stuff is by which way the mass of people run -- and I don't see 'em running to the UK to get trained, or to work.
[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 01 April 2001).]
It's not the US's fault that the cost of training is so high in the UK. Examine your own government policies and taxes.
Pilot training in reputable US schools is just fine. More practical and less theoretical than the UK, but we seem to be doing just fine. Maybe pilot licenses don't need to be gold plated to be effective?
Stop bleating about US aviation and square-away the UK training industry. I've always been able to tell where the good stuff is by which way the mass of people run -- and I don't see 'em running to the UK to get trained, or to work.
[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 01 April 2001).]
Guest
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Having gained first hand experience of US training, before commenting further, those who claim that US training is second rate should try the FAA/IR in the Los Angeles basin. It is certainly an experience for me, I have never experienced such busy airspace. Certainly my PPL training in Class G airspace was not exactly adequate preparation for this! The UK IMC rating is like a holiday compared to the FAA/IR.
WWW. What exactly is your sum experience of flying in the USA?
[This message has been edited by Sensible (edited 01 April 2001).]
WWW. What exactly is your sum experience of flying in the USA?
[This message has been edited by Sensible (edited 01 April 2001).]
Guest
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Going back to the original posting:
Also, the FAA is thinking of changing the wording in 61.87 to prevent JAA instructors in the US training a student, then fobbing them off to an FAA instructor for solo and solo X-C privledges.
The JAA have already solved this problem by banning FAA instructors from giving instruction for JAA licences and ratings unless they work at a school providing integrated ATPL training which is registered in, and has its main place of business in, a JAA Member State. So, unless you work for OAT, Lufthansa, Sabena, etc., you're going to need a JAA licence and instructor rating.
JAA instructors, on the other hand, will find no difficulty in obtaining FAA qualifications which will enable them to deal with the pre-solo/solo cross-country problem.
Having obtained the FAA Commercial, Instrument, CFI, CFII and ATP, I can confirm that each of the tests/exams is significantly easier than its European counterpart.
Sensible - Why not compare the PPL Skill Test with the ATP Skill Test, as a comparison its got about as much validity as comparing the UK IMC rating with any Instrument Rating.
Also, the FAA is thinking of changing the wording in 61.87 to prevent JAA instructors in the US training a student, then fobbing them off to an FAA instructor for solo and solo X-C privledges.
The JAA have already solved this problem by banning FAA instructors from giving instruction for JAA licences and ratings unless they work at a school providing integrated ATPL training which is registered in, and has its main place of business in, a JAA Member State. So, unless you work for OAT, Lufthansa, Sabena, etc., you're going to need a JAA licence and instructor rating.
JAA instructors, on the other hand, will find no difficulty in obtaining FAA qualifications which will enable them to deal with the pre-solo/solo cross-country problem.
Having obtained the FAA Commercial, Instrument, CFI, CFII and ATP, I can confirm that each of the tests/exams is significantly easier than its European counterpart.
Sensible - Why not compare the PPL Skill Test with the ATP Skill Test, as a comparison its got about as much validity as comparing the UK IMC rating with any Instrument Rating.
Guest
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Sensible - I think you've just read my post with a pre-conceived notion of my views. I never said a word about the quality of US training.
I have advised many people to look at it very carefully as an options and for some peoples circumstances its the best choice.
HOWEVER> you have to realise that Uncle Sam is taking around 45% of the PPL training that would otherwise occur in the UK.
THAT fact keeps UK flying instructors out of work i.e. most Wannabes first job. GA is smaller therefore less well supported and more expensive etc etc. I want to see a vibrant GA community in the UK. Ending US PPL's will help this ideal greatly.
As for my experience of the US - none. Never been. Want to though.
I have converted several Brits who have done the US PPL and then come back to blighty to join the flying club. Their checkouts take circa 3-4 hours rather than 1. Every time. I also trained some guy who never got his PPL in the States even though they flew him for 70hrs!!!! They Never sent him solo even. They were taking him for a ride and his training was so abysmal that it was IMPOSSIBLE for me to de-programme his dangerous bad habits.
That said its all annecdotal and US safety records are comparable to ours.
WWW
I have advised many people to look at it very carefully as an options and for some peoples circumstances its the best choice.
HOWEVER> you have to realise that Uncle Sam is taking around 45% of the PPL training that would otherwise occur in the UK.
THAT fact keeps UK flying instructors out of work i.e. most Wannabes first job. GA is smaller therefore less well supported and more expensive etc etc. I want to see a vibrant GA community in the UK. Ending US PPL's will help this ideal greatly.
As for my experience of the US - none. Never been. Want to though.
I have converted several Brits who have done the US PPL and then come back to blighty to join the flying club. Their checkouts take circa 3-4 hours rather than 1. Every time. I also trained some guy who never got his PPL in the States even though they flew him for 70hrs!!!! They Never sent him solo even. They were taking him for a ride and his training was so abysmal that it was IMPOSSIBLE for me to de-programme his dangerous bad habits.
That said its all annecdotal and US safety records are comparable to ours.
WWW
