FAA getting fed up with JAA intransigence
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RRAAMJET:
Nice one. Absolutely correct. Hope all is going well at AA, maybe I'll be knocking on your door before long ;-)
I've worked for 4 flight schools here in the USA and of all of them, the worst run without a doubt was a British school run by a Brit!
I'm not suggesting for a moment that there aren't bad US owned and operated flight schools..there are and I started my flight training with one. Just seems a shame that some of my fellow Brit countrymen don't always give a good impression.
Nice one. Absolutely correct. Hope all is going well at AA, maybe I'll be knocking on your door before long ;-)
I've worked for 4 flight schools here in the USA and of all of them, the worst run without a doubt was a British school run by a Brit!
I'm not suggesting for a moment that there aren't bad US owned and operated flight schools..there are and I started my flight training with one. Just seems a shame that some of my fellow Brit countrymen don't always give a good impression.
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RRAAMJET,
you are right, i miss the turn, but keep in mind there are thousand of EU guys flying in the USA and looking a job somewhere else than EU or USA and more EU countries try to "boycott" the training in USA, more students go to the USA.
there are other countries which recognise FAA licence.I do nt know if they recognise JAA licence frozen ATP due to the lack of experience.
you are right it's a choice, I fly, not a jet, but I continue to do what I like to do, to fly! I can ad that this fight bring money to EU schools, it s exactly what they wanted(boycott the US).Anyway, somebody is going to pay, the consomator(student pilots), the airliners, schools or the tax payers!!!
you are right, i miss the turn, but keep in mind there are thousand of EU guys flying in the USA and looking a job somewhere else than EU or USA and more EU countries try to "boycott" the training in USA, more students go to the USA.
there are other countries which recognise FAA licence.I do nt know if they recognise JAA licence frozen ATP due to the lack of experience.
you are right it's a choice, I fly, not a jet, but I continue to do what I like to do, to fly! I can ad that this fight bring money to EU schools, it s exactly what they wanted(boycott the US).Anyway, somebody is going to pay, the consomator(student pilots), the airliners, schools or the tax payers!!!
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RRAAMJET ~ Sorry for any offence, I was simply quoting the US green card reqs, without any adaptation to the context: "Skill" being in possession of a JAR licence. Not flying a plane any better. I was referring to the fact few US pilots would waste the time and money to teach Europeans, especially as in real terms their outlay would be greater.
I've been to a couple of US "Factory PPL" schools, I've always loathed the term "Factory", Ford make cars in a factory and they’re quite good. The word for those schools is CRAP. They don't train what is required to produce a competent pilot. Why is this prevalent in the US?
1. Does the FAA Clamp down on something that would only lose business and doesn't cause them any trouble... No
2. Do the CAA Clamp down on "CAA Approved" Schools that don't train to a proper standard... No
Q. Who's the Bad guys?
(BEagle, sure there is the case that they won't be allowed to fly, but why should the schools be allowed to rip them off? CAA should take a bit more responsibility as nobody else is in the position to, or is it the fact of all the fat fees rolling in?)
Both schools run by brits. One school was good cheap fun flying, not the best gear ect, but run by two guys who liked flying and wanted to see a safe pilot. the other was run by a complete W@nker only to rip people off. he'd be a w@nker if he was Greek, Yank, German or Spanish, and it would still by a Crap school.
Judge a pilot by his flying and experience, not where he was trained.
[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 04 April 2001).]
I've been to a couple of US "Factory PPL" schools, I've always loathed the term "Factory", Ford make cars in a factory and they’re quite good. The word for those schools is CRAP. They don't train what is required to produce a competent pilot. Why is this prevalent in the US?
1. Does the FAA Clamp down on something that would only lose business and doesn't cause them any trouble... No
2. Do the CAA Clamp down on "CAA Approved" Schools that don't train to a proper standard... No
Q. Who's the Bad guys?
(BEagle, sure there is the case that they won't be allowed to fly, but why should the schools be allowed to rip them off? CAA should take a bit more responsibility as nobody else is in the position to, or is it the fact of all the fat fees rolling in?)
Both schools run by brits. One school was good cheap fun flying, not the best gear ect, but run by two guys who liked flying and wanted to see a safe pilot. the other was run by a complete W@nker only to rip people off. he'd be a w@nker if he was Greek, Yank, German or Spanish, and it would still by a Crap school.
Judge a pilot by his flying and experience, not where he was trained.
[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 04 April 2001).]
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Fellas,
I've read many a post in "Wannabes" containing the FAA vs JAA rantings and ravings. Usually they bring a smile to my face, sometimes they make me laugh but more often than not they just p!@s me off.
I've flown in both the UK and the US, have worked as an instructor for both JAA and FAA students and have an FAA ATPL and just need to do the flight test for the JAA ATPL to get that. So I'd like to think I can compare the 2 systems with some degree of experience.
The JAA ATPL exams are far harder than their FAA counterpart. Anyone who's waded through Module 1 and 2 can atest to that. Do they test what you really need to know to operate as a commercial pilot with an airline. Well, that's debatable, but a European Pilot who's done the ATPL subjects WILL have a far better theoretical understanding of the relevent areas covered by these exams as well as being alot poorer. After having done the exams and speaking to my friends it has become clear that most of us have "Brain-dumped" most of it as being useless, which when I think of the expense really annoys me.
So now we get to the flying: GENERALLY, it has been my experience that the US students have been far better at the practical side of being a pilot. Now before I get burning crosses hung on my door at night, let me try to justify that.
As a US PPL you should have been exposed on fairly regular basis to a greater range of situations and experiences. For instance, US students generally have more experience operating in a radar-controlled environment. All my US students had to deal with operating in Miami's and Orlando's class B throughout their training. Anyone who's tried to get a RIS or RAS out of Luton on a saturday afternoon with 10 A/C flying towards the WCO NDB will know that this is sort of experience is harder to come by in the UK.
You should have also had the chance to fly on longer flights experiencing different types of weather. The US is simply bigger, has a wider range of weather and I think this makes the PPL's in the US more experienced at GO-No GO decision making. Throughout my training in the UK it was simply is the weather good or bad. Not much in between. These are just 2 ways in which I feel US students geat a broader experience of flying. There are others but I think this means that you should be more confident and more proficient at this here flying lark. Isn't that the whole point??
The JAA students that I taught seemed to spend more time talking about how European pilots were safer and how much better flying in Europe is. My point to them was and is, if it's so bad in the US what are you doing here aswell as if you spent more time concentrating on the job at hand instead of lugging that chip on your shoulder around, you do far better. It wouldn't even occur to most US students to start slagging of European pilots as being unworthy to fly.
There will always be European/US rivalry, it's healthy and provides some funny jokes. But this whole JAA vs FAA debate seems to be instigated and encouraged by Europeans rather than Septics. I really can't help wondering if it's just Europeans and especially us Brits who are jealous at having to spend so much more time and money to achieve the same results as a US student. Could it be that our over inflated sense of self importance and very obviuos arrogance stem from having to justify spending thousands of pounds on ground schooling no-one really can justify. There is good and bad training, good and there are good and bad pilots the world over. Bottom line: Who cares about who's better, aren't we all doing the same thing for the same reasons?? Stop bitching and enjoy being up in the air.
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I've read many a post in "Wannabes" containing the FAA vs JAA rantings and ravings. Usually they bring a smile to my face, sometimes they make me laugh but more often than not they just p!@s me off.
I've flown in both the UK and the US, have worked as an instructor for both JAA and FAA students and have an FAA ATPL and just need to do the flight test for the JAA ATPL to get that. So I'd like to think I can compare the 2 systems with some degree of experience.
The JAA ATPL exams are far harder than their FAA counterpart. Anyone who's waded through Module 1 and 2 can atest to that. Do they test what you really need to know to operate as a commercial pilot with an airline. Well, that's debatable, but a European Pilot who's done the ATPL subjects WILL have a far better theoretical understanding of the relevent areas covered by these exams as well as being alot poorer. After having done the exams and speaking to my friends it has become clear that most of us have "Brain-dumped" most of it as being useless, which when I think of the expense really annoys me.
So now we get to the flying: GENERALLY, it has been my experience that the US students have been far better at the practical side of being a pilot. Now before I get burning crosses hung on my door at night, let me try to justify that.
As a US PPL you should have been exposed on fairly regular basis to a greater range of situations and experiences. For instance, US students generally have more experience operating in a radar-controlled environment. All my US students had to deal with operating in Miami's and Orlando's class B throughout their training. Anyone who's tried to get a RIS or RAS out of Luton on a saturday afternoon with 10 A/C flying towards the WCO NDB will know that this is sort of experience is harder to come by in the UK.
You should have also had the chance to fly on longer flights experiencing different types of weather. The US is simply bigger, has a wider range of weather and I think this makes the PPL's in the US more experienced at GO-No GO decision making. Throughout my training in the UK it was simply is the weather good or bad. Not much in between. These are just 2 ways in which I feel US students geat a broader experience of flying. There are others but I think this means that you should be more confident and more proficient at this here flying lark. Isn't that the whole point??
The JAA students that I taught seemed to spend more time talking about how European pilots were safer and how much better flying in Europe is. My point to them was and is, if it's so bad in the US what are you doing here aswell as if you spent more time concentrating on the job at hand instead of lugging that chip on your shoulder around, you do far better. It wouldn't even occur to most US students to start slagging of European pilots as being unworthy to fly.
There will always be European/US rivalry, it's healthy and provides some funny jokes. But this whole JAA vs FAA debate seems to be instigated and encouraged by Europeans rather than Septics. I really can't help wondering if it's just Europeans and especially us Brits who are jealous at having to spend so much more time and money to achieve the same results as a US student. Could it be that our over inflated sense of self importance and very obviuos arrogance stem from having to justify spending thousands of pounds on ground schooling no-one really can justify. There is good and bad training, good and there are good and bad pilots the world over. Bottom line: Who cares about who's better, aren't we all doing the same thing for the same reasons?? Stop bitching and enjoy being up in the air.
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I fly regulary in europe and in the USA.
why do you think airlines have selection tests before to employ a pilot.If you are SO GOOD in england, why BA and other airlines test you in a sim or else?
I flew with hundred of guys, from India, saudia, england, USA, france,...some are good, some shouldn t fly a plane!!!
there is no point to say if a school is good or not. I see good pilots in bad schools and bad pilots in good school.
I saw bad JAA pilots and bad FAA pilots.
Some of you will never get a job because you are to bad to fly a plane.
With 200h, do nt excpect to much,it take years and years before to become a pilot.It s not the license wich will make you a pilot.
In french we say:L'habit ne fait pas le moine!
anyway, i looked at my wallet and the experience i can get for my money and the USA is number one on my list.
why do you think airlines have selection tests before to employ a pilot.If you are SO GOOD in england, why BA and other airlines test you in a sim or else?
I flew with hundred of guys, from India, saudia, england, USA, france,...some are good, some shouldn t fly a plane!!!
there is no point to say if a school is good or not. I see good pilots in bad schools and bad pilots in good school.
I saw bad JAA pilots and bad FAA pilots.
Some of you will never get a job because you are to bad to fly a plane.
With 200h, do nt excpect to much,it take years and years before to become a pilot.It s not the license wich will make you a pilot.
In french we say:L'habit ne fait pas le moine!
anyway, i looked at my wallet and the experience i can get for my money and the USA is number one on my list.
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ONCE AGAIN we stray into the pointless territory of 'who is the better pilot'/'which is the best training regime'.
That is not the point.
If the EU is to retain, enhance and secure - for the long term - an ability to train its commerical pilots then its got to stop Uncle Sam stealing all the business.
Its a simple strategic decision that hasn't happened before simply because America is a United States and Europe was a hodge podge of ill organised countries with disspirate licensing authorities.
Stop letting Americas inherent coherence plus its cheaper tax base stunt the growth of aviation in the EU.
I want to see UK/EU Wannabes able to train relatively locally, to a high standard, AND THEN be able to start their careers in localish flying schools and airlines.
JAA propsals will facilitate this in 2 ways. 1 fewer people going abroad to the US to train. 2 less competition from The New World pilots who always seem to have 8,000 twin bours under their belt at age 21.
Another salient point that people have chosen to ignore (see my previous posting) is that you earn a lot less in your early years in under the FAA system. Remember the higher the barriers to entry - the greater the rewards. Looks bad if you are just starting out but looks great when you start your career...
Please, no more My dad flys better than your dad debates or we'll be onto the relative merits of 509 vs Self Improver before we know it!
Safe flying,
WWW
That is not the point.
If the EU is to retain, enhance and secure - for the long term - an ability to train its commerical pilots then its got to stop Uncle Sam stealing all the business.
Its a simple strategic decision that hasn't happened before simply because America is a United States and Europe was a hodge podge of ill organised countries with disspirate licensing authorities.
Stop letting Americas inherent coherence plus its cheaper tax base stunt the growth of aviation in the EU.
I want to see UK/EU Wannabes able to train relatively locally, to a high standard, AND THEN be able to start their careers in localish flying schools and airlines.
JAA propsals will facilitate this in 2 ways. 1 fewer people going abroad to the US to train. 2 less competition from The New World pilots who always seem to have 8,000 twin bours under their belt at age 21.
Another salient point that people have chosen to ignore (see my previous posting) is that you earn a lot less in your early years in under the FAA system. Remember the higher the barriers to entry - the greater the rewards. Looks bad if you are just starting out but looks great when you start your career...
Please, no more My dad flys better than your dad debates or we'll be onto the relative merits of 509 vs Self Improver before we know it!
Safe flying,
WWW
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And to steal from another thread on PPRuNe - for those Europeans who are huge fans of the FAA remember that in the US:
"Generally speaking, the current averages of new hire pilots at the airlines are: 3,300 hours total flying time, 2,700 hours multi-engine/turbo, with 1,200 hours pilot-in-command."
WWW
"Generally speaking, the current averages of new hire pilots at the airlines are: 3,300 hours total flying time, 2,700 hours multi-engine/turbo, with 1,200 hours pilot-in-command."
WWW
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WWW says:
"ONCE AGAIN we stray into the pointless territory of 'who is the better pilot'/'which is the best training regime'.
That is not the point."
That's right, it isn't the point at all. Uncle Sam isn't "stealing" European flight students, they come of their own free will for all the reasons stated many times before.
If you want to see a United Europe for aviation matters and make it cheaper at the same time too, then you have to change it to make it work how you want it.
Protectionist moves to limit choice rarely work well. As RRAAMJET said, if you want to work in a country not of your own nationality, then you need to address the issue of the work visa problem first...and it's not impossible to do so.
There is always a way round an apparently impossible problem.
"ONCE AGAIN we stray into the pointless territory of 'who is the better pilot'/'which is the best training regime'.
That is not the point."
That's right, it isn't the point at all. Uncle Sam isn't "stealing" European flight students, they come of their own free will for all the reasons stated many times before.
If you want to see a United Europe for aviation matters and make it cheaper at the same time too, then you have to change it to make it work how you want it.
Protectionist moves to limit choice rarely work well. As RRAAMJET said, if you want to work in a country not of your own nationality, then you need to address the issue of the work visa problem first...and it's not impossible to do so.
There is always a way round an apparently impossible problem.
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Kenny seems sensible or, maybe, he is Sensible.
The immoderate moderator, WWW, seems stupid or, maybe, he is
On that subject-
There is nothing 'inherent' in the cost difference between Europe and U.S. or anywhere else. There is more cheap fuel coming from the North Sea than North America and having to pay more for Cessna parts is the same problem as having to pay more than Americans for a car or a computer.
The problem is political- 'they' prefer that you pay more for almost everything in Europe.
The correct attack is on costs (our VAT, landing charges, high profit margins, ludicrous licensing fees etc.) not on competition, from the U.S., Australia etc.
Proctectionism- supported by silly Uncle Sam slagging etc.- would actually worsen the problem by removing competition for the inefficient and anti-consumer flight training environment in Europe- fostered by an unaccountable CAA/JAA gang of bureaucrats.
There may be a few 'New World' pilots getting jobs in Europe but there are many more who have moved in the opposite direction.
It is incredible that anyone on Wannabees and, especially, a moderator would advocate restricting your consumer and human rights to train as cheaply as possible and/or wherever you want.
The big, and really sick, joke about all the little Brit. and confused JAA jingoism is that aviation is supposed to be international so, however much 'they' manage to shaft you when studying, you can still be an aviator anywhere !
The immoderate moderator, WWW, seems stupid or, maybe, he is
On that subject-
There is nothing 'inherent' in the cost difference between Europe and U.S. or anywhere else. There is more cheap fuel coming from the North Sea than North America and having to pay more for Cessna parts is the same problem as having to pay more than Americans for a car or a computer.
The problem is political- 'they' prefer that you pay more for almost everything in Europe.
The correct attack is on costs (our VAT, landing charges, high profit margins, ludicrous licensing fees etc.) not on competition, from the U.S., Australia etc.
Proctectionism- supported by silly Uncle Sam slagging etc.- would actually worsen the problem by removing competition for the inefficient and anti-consumer flight training environment in Europe- fostered by an unaccountable CAA/JAA gang of bureaucrats.
There may be a few 'New World' pilots getting jobs in Europe but there are many more who have moved in the opposite direction.
It is incredible that anyone on Wannabees and, especially, a moderator would advocate restricting your consumer and human rights to train as cheaply as possible and/or wherever you want.
The big, and really sick, joke about all the little Brit. and confused JAA jingoism is that aviation is supposed to be international so, however much 'they' manage to shaft you when studying, you can still be an aviator anywhere !
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Being a Moderator never has precluded one from having an opinion. Everyone is free to have one here.
Once you've worked through the industry from Wannabe, PPL then Commercial Flying Instructor, and then into the airline world PLUS you've considered all matters Wannabe for many years you will very probably come to the same opinion that I have.
Its not a simple issue.
However, the wheels are in motion and the facts are that there will be no more Non JAA companies authorised to train for the JAA license.
PPL and hour building will still be available in the US but its getting less attractive. Good news for the local flying school, club and instructor on balance.
If you don't get sponsored (lots of people) and the airlines aren't interested in you with 180hrs fresh out of College then this is also very good news for you.
WWW
Once you've worked through the industry from Wannabe, PPL then Commercial Flying Instructor, and then into the airline world PLUS you've considered all matters Wannabe for many years you will very probably come to the same opinion that I have.
Its not a simple issue.
However, the wheels are in motion and the facts are that there will be no more Non JAA companies authorised to train for the JAA license.
PPL and hour building will still be available in the US but its getting less attractive. Good news for the local flying school, club and instructor on balance.
If you don't get sponsored (lots of people) and the airlines aren't interested in you with 180hrs fresh out of College then this is also very good news for you.
WWW
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Well, while the debate continues the world keep on turning and both systems keep on producing professional pilots.
All at the Towers would like to congratulate the Welshman. This morning police leave in the East Midlands area was cancelled to keep wellwishers, spotters and overexcited groupies out of harm's way while he performed a series of circuits in a 737-300.
From Wannabee to PPL, Instructor and now jet F.O. All conducted here on open forum describing every step of the way while assisting hundreds with information privately by e-mail.
Congratulations on joining the ranks mate - A very special day.
Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd
[email protected]
All at the Towers would like to congratulate the Welshman. This morning police leave in the East Midlands area was cancelled to keep wellwishers, spotters and overexcited groupies out of harm's way while he performed a series of circuits in a 737-300.
From Wannabee to PPL, Instructor and now jet F.O. All conducted here on open forum describing every step of the way while assisting hundreds with information privately by e-mail.
Congratulations on joining the ranks mate - A very special day.
Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd
[email protected]
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WWW's laudable achievement and his fan club posting on this topic are irrelevant to the points I made.
Whatever 'good news' there may be for others, it won't be for you, the consumer.
However it is dressed-up, by WWW and others, the JAA intention to reduce competition and restrict your rights will wreck some Wannabes opportunities to make it at the already high cost. That will only increase if the JAA has its way.
Whatever 'good news' there may be for others, it won't be for you, the consumer.
However it is dressed-up, by WWW and others, the JAA intention to reduce competition and restrict your rights will wreck some Wannabes opportunities to make it at the already high cost. That will only increase if the JAA has its way.
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This is a pointless thread. No-one yet knows for sure which way the JAA are going - not even the JAA and for certain not even anyone Welsh! I know that this is a rumour network, but please stop posting rumour and claiming it to be fact. Some people are getting pi$$ed off 
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Hmmm, well if you had very recently had lunch with a prominent figure in the European Association of Airline Pilot Schools www.eaaps.com like a certain Welshman has - you might have a quite clear idea of exactly where JAA is going as regards commerical flying training in the US...
You ain't seen me - roight.
WWW
You ain't seen me - roight.
WWW
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herniair,
It could be equally argued that the value to the consumer is very much greater over here, especially in the UK.
You view is, understandably, short term, something I mentioned earlier on this thread.
After paying all that money though you face job prospects and income inconceivable to those native to and training in the 'cheap' countries you all love talking about.
Whether America, South Africa, Australia or the latest place for a cheap licence or hour building the locals will be generally polite but utterly dumbfounded at just how many thousands of hours they will have to knock up in instructing, GA and with third level operators before they are even employable in an aircraft type that you and other wannabees here expect to start flying in your very first job.
The system you decry so much lags but is a reponse to the market for pilots. The market in America is changing as well with lower hour requirements for regional jobs. However, let's be perfectly blunt about this, the last time 200 hour civilian pilots went straight onto airline jet equipment in the States was in 1966/7 due a lttle disagreement in Indo-China.
Pilots elsewhere in the world pay their 'dues' over a very long period before they get jobs that pay well.
The direct opposite is true here. In world terms, high earning jobs on advanced equipment at the very start of your careers. The rest of the world looks at it this way: you've bought between 4 and 10 years of struggling through their post licence issue systems.
Overall UK wannabees actually work their way through what is easily, in the medium and long term, the cheapest system in the world.
Discuss:
Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd
[email protected]
It could be equally argued that the value to the consumer is very much greater over here, especially in the UK.
You view is, understandably, short term, something I mentioned earlier on this thread.
After paying all that money though you face job prospects and income inconceivable to those native to and training in the 'cheap' countries you all love talking about.
Whether America, South Africa, Australia or the latest place for a cheap licence or hour building the locals will be generally polite but utterly dumbfounded at just how many thousands of hours they will have to knock up in instructing, GA and with third level operators before they are even employable in an aircraft type that you and other wannabees here expect to start flying in your very first job.
The system you decry so much lags but is a reponse to the market for pilots. The market in America is changing as well with lower hour requirements for regional jobs. However, let's be perfectly blunt about this, the last time 200 hour civilian pilots went straight onto airline jet equipment in the States was in 1966/7 due a lttle disagreement in Indo-China.
Pilots elsewhere in the world pay their 'dues' over a very long period before they get jobs that pay well.
The direct opposite is true here. In world terms, high earning jobs on advanced equipment at the very start of your careers. The rest of the world looks at it this way: you've bought between 4 and 10 years of struggling through their post licence issue systems.
Overall UK wannabees actually work their way through what is easily, in the medium and long term, the cheapest system in the world.
Discuss:
Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd
[email protected]
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And you can "Buy it" for a lot less in the Cheaper training states.
The UK CAA Recognised (And still do by virtue of not grounding nearly every pilot) Training Not within the UK. the US was and still is on saftey grounds an acceptable option. just not to those who have now a licence and don't want to be "undercut" by financially leaner Forigen students, or the self protecting JAA.
Just becuase Spain is in the EU, don't try and tell me going there is good and cheaper. and going to the US is bad but a great deal cheaper.
I would happily pay a price premium to stay in the UK, but a resonable one. "Uncle Sams Free Gas" still dosn't explain the vast price difference.
I'm sure PPRuNe Towers words will be very comforting to the next person selling there House, Instructing is so badly paid when you consider the VAST outlay for a ticket. is not that poorly paid job in direct comparison with other proffesions, what exactly is wrong with working for a job?
congrats WWW! You've showen how stuggle and determination and a whole heap of cash can get you where you want, wouldn't it be nice to have done it a little cheaper?
[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 09 April 2001).]
The UK CAA Recognised (And still do by virtue of not grounding nearly every pilot) Training Not within the UK. the US was and still is on saftey grounds an acceptable option. just not to those who have now a licence and don't want to be "undercut" by financially leaner Forigen students, or the self protecting JAA.
Just becuase Spain is in the EU, don't try and tell me going there is good and cheaper. and going to the US is bad but a great deal cheaper.
I would happily pay a price premium to stay in the UK, but a resonable one. "Uncle Sams Free Gas" still dosn't explain the vast price difference.
I'm sure PPRuNe Towers words will be very comforting to the next person selling there House, Instructing is so badly paid when you consider the VAST outlay for a ticket. is not that poorly paid job in direct comparison with other proffesions, what exactly is wrong with working for a job?
congrats WWW! You've showen how stuggle and determination and a whole heap of cash can get you where you want, wouldn't it be nice to have done it a little cheaper?
[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 09 April 2001).]
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A little patronising LRT,
Ten years to get 1300 hours and then at last a job. House sold (they don't raise much in Liverpool), pro camera gear flogged off and one of the first Career Development Loans - everyone, I mean everyone goes through it.
It so happens that the trio building PPruNe from scratch were all self improvers who sold up to finance their licences. Two of three did much of their flying in the States.
All the jets whizzing overhead are driven by similar people who gave up a lot to get there. The only difference is they did it before you.
One of the problems we have getting assistance, sponsorship and quality mentors for wannabee projects is a poor attitude that often comes across. Rightly or wrongly many of you appear to be self centred, immature and unwilling to put anything back for those following in your footsteps.
Before the howls of denial are typed into submission boxes I trust you will compare and contrast the threads regarding the numbers fighting to get listed for the wannabee seminars versus those who've actually fished a tenner out their pockets.
Ten pounds to spend the day with professionals who do the job for real, been through the entire system and don't have a thing to sell you. They're just putting something back.
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Regards from the Towers
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 09 April 2001).]
Ten years to get 1300 hours and then at last a job. House sold (they don't raise much in Liverpool), pro camera gear flogged off and one of the first Career Development Loans - everyone, I mean everyone goes through it.
It so happens that the trio building PPruNe from scratch were all self improvers who sold up to finance their licences. Two of three did much of their flying in the States.
All the jets whizzing overhead are driven by similar people who gave up a lot to get there. The only difference is they did it before you.
One of the problems we have getting assistance, sponsorship and quality mentors for wannabee projects is a poor attitude that often comes across. Rightly or wrongly many of you appear to be self centred, immature and unwilling to put anything back for those following in your footsteps.
Before the howls of denial are typed into submission boxes I trust you will compare and contrast the threads regarding the numbers fighting to get listed for the wannabee seminars versus those who've actually fished a tenner out their pockets.
Ten pounds to spend the day with professionals who do the job for real, been through the entire system and don't have a thing to sell you. They're just putting something back.
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Regards from the Towers
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 09 April 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Yes but LRT remember the point is that JAA will soon stop *any* JAA valid commercial flying training taking place in the USA.
You can get a PPL plus IMC plus 100hrs TT in the UK for an all inclusive price of six thousand pounds sterling. Yes. 6k. To be honest time you factor in travel, conversion courses plus the fact that an IMC rating reduces the very expensive hours required for CPL instrument training it don't make a whole lot of sense to go Stateside any more.
Please don't think I am having a go at anyone. I have NO personal interest in prmoting UK flying training as I am now working for an airline.
However, I *do* know one hell of a lot about this subject and have seen a whole stack of people go both ways over the years. I am also researching all the facts for a book I am writing on the subject.
Cheers,
WWW
ps PPRuNe Towers knows what he is talking about - I know and have *personally trained* people under JAA who have invested all of 44k sterling plus 54 weeks and then had jobs on BAe 146's operating out of a major EU capital city 3 weeks after graduating. Now *THAT* was cheap training compared to the 8 years of hour building on poverty wages you would have had to do in the world outside of JAA.
You can get a PPL plus IMC plus 100hrs TT in the UK for an all inclusive price of six thousand pounds sterling. Yes. 6k. To be honest time you factor in travel, conversion courses plus the fact that an IMC rating reduces the very expensive hours required for CPL instrument training it don't make a whole lot of sense to go Stateside any more.
Please don't think I am having a go at anyone. I have NO personal interest in prmoting UK flying training as I am now working for an airline.
However, I *do* know one hell of a lot about this subject and have seen a whole stack of people go both ways over the years. I am also researching all the facts for a book I am writing on the subject.
Cheers,
WWW
ps PPRuNe Towers knows what he is talking about - I know and have *personally trained* people under JAA who have invested all of 44k sterling plus 54 weeks and then had jobs on BAe 146's operating out of a major EU capital city 3 weeks after graduating. Now *THAT* was cheap training compared to the 8 years of hour building on poverty wages you would have had to do in the world outside of JAA.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Sorry if I offended anyone. but Towers, you prove my point. what if I offerd you the chance NOT to sell your Camra Gears, or mortage a smaller lump out of your house. Sounds to good to be true? well look outside the EU!
I fail to see your point, I am in the position you were in a while ago, I'm sure you remeber, maybe not as vivid as it seems when your in the heat of it.
Training has become even more expensive. and the people in the thread saying closing the US door is a good thing. I really can't understand it. the EU/JAA see the damage the Cheap state training does. "Banning" it is their action, rather than trying to ease the cost of training.
Has BAe's move to spain have anything to do with the fact they don't VAT on training? does Westminister get the hint?
There seems to be the growing misconseption that EVERYONE here wants to be a Airline pilot. well I don't, but I'm lumped in the same boat as everone else, I want to be an instructor, why, because if I can make flying one bit as fun and interesting as one of my PPL instructors did, I will be putting something back. as for your ten pounds, I don't have ten pounds. I don't have anything. I'm living out my folks pockets, and I already own money to the banks. and till I've got my ticket I've got nothing to show but big debt.
The US are starting to face a pilot shortage, even with their different system. the EU are already seing a downturn, and yet want to choke the system more. why is the banning of choosing how you get a licence a good thing?
WWW. 6K, Where and flying what? its definatly not in my area. Having a US IR for not much more would help with the UK IR a great deal more. Bang for buck the US wins and the EU know it. Why does banning Commercial training in the US help any wannabie?
[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 09 April 2001).]
I fail to see your point, I am in the position you were in a while ago, I'm sure you remeber, maybe not as vivid as it seems when your in the heat of it.
Training has become even more expensive. and the people in the thread saying closing the US door is a good thing. I really can't understand it. the EU/JAA see the damage the Cheap state training does. "Banning" it is their action, rather than trying to ease the cost of training.
Has BAe's move to spain have anything to do with the fact they don't VAT on training? does Westminister get the hint?
There seems to be the growing misconseption that EVERYONE here wants to be a Airline pilot. well I don't, but I'm lumped in the same boat as everone else, I want to be an instructor, why, because if I can make flying one bit as fun and interesting as one of my PPL instructors did, I will be putting something back. as for your ten pounds, I don't have ten pounds. I don't have anything. I'm living out my folks pockets, and I already own money to the banks. and till I've got my ticket I've got nothing to show but big debt.
The US are starting to face a pilot shortage, even with their different system. the EU are already seing a downturn, and yet want to choke the system more. why is the banning of choosing how you get a licence a good thing?
WWW. 6K, Where and flying what? its definatly not in my area. Having a US IR for not much more would help with the UK IR a great deal more. Bang for buck the US wins and the EU know it. Why does banning Commercial training in the US help any wannabie?
[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 09 April 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Training has not got more expensive. Its actually got cheaper over the last decade e.g. BAe used to charge 60k for their ab inito course in 1990. They were asking 51k in 1999 WHILST STILL AT PRESTWICK.
The Spanish form of VAT applies to BAe in Spain. Aircraft utilisation coupled in no small part with very cheap airport fees are the main reasons why the Jerez prices are lower.
IF you really want to become a career flying instructor you should WHOLEHEARTEDLY support the JAA moves mooted. It will mean more EU flying training and more work/pay/opportunity/career for you.
If your strongest arguement is cost then I am afraid your arguement fails. As I said a JAA PPL, CAA IMC and 100rs TT can be had in the UK for 6,000 pounds these days. Then add in that you'll have spent those 100hrs in THE LOCAL FLYING TRAINING AREA OF YOU CPL SKILLTEST and the strategy you should adopt becomes very very clear.
Trust me friend, there is one heck of a lot to this than meets the eye - particularly if that eye is trained on some poxy Florida flying circus 'Gauranteeing' a PPL in 4 days or your money back (terms and conditions apply)!
Cheers,
WWW
[This message has been edited by Wee Weasley Welshman (edited 09 April 2001).]
The Spanish form of VAT applies to BAe in Spain. Aircraft utilisation coupled in no small part with very cheap airport fees are the main reasons why the Jerez prices are lower.
IF you really want to become a career flying instructor you should WHOLEHEARTEDLY support the JAA moves mooted. It will mean more EU flying training and more work/pay/opportunity/career for you.
If your strongest arguement is cost then I am afraid your arguement fails. As I said a JAA PPL, CAA IMC and 100rs TT can be had in the UK for 6,000 pounds these days. Then add in that you'll have spent those 100hrs in THE LOCAL FLYING TRAINING AREA OF YOU CPL SKILLTEST and the strategy you should adopt becomes very very clear.
Trust me friend, there is one heck of a lot to this than meets the eye - particularly if that eye is trained on some poxy Florida flying circus 'Gauranteeing' a PPL in 4 days or your money back (terms and conditions apply)!
Cheers,
WWW
[This message has been edited by Wee Weasley Welshman (edited 09 April 2001).]