FAA getting fed up with JAA intransigence
Guest
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Its all a bonfire of vanities really, all this JAA/FAA stuff. The real crux, as always, is MONEY.
WWWs dream of protected market GA in the UK is fine but who can afford it? At the end of the day the US has a less stringent (and cheaper) system that works just fine. All this hoohaw about extra training for US PPLs is just pure snobbery. Get over it guys.
I've been to America numerous times (work and play) and you know, they're a lot like us. WWW, you should go, I can highly recommend it
WWWs dream of protected market GA in the UK is fine but who can afford it? At the end of the day the US has a less stringent (and cheaper) system that works just fine. All this hoohaw about extra training for US PPLs is just pure snobbery. Get over it guys.
I've been to America numerous times (work and play) and you know, they're a lot like us. WWW, you should go, I can highly recommend it
Guest
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Reason why US takes such a big chunk of all prospective PPL's in the whole of EU not just UK is simple.
THERE IS VIRTUALLY NO SUPPORT TO GA FROM EU!!!!!!!
Once JAA gets a grip of its regulations, fuel is cheaper, and taxes are lower things should get better.Then you have these bozos that move next to busy airports and next thing you know airport is being relocated beacuse of the noise sensitivity of the community... What a load of crap.
Those idiots sitting in Starsbourg and national governments have no clue that cost of flying and training is by far the biggest reason why wannabes from EU go elsewhere.
Until something is done about these things all this talk about who is better FAA or JAA is fruitless. Concentrate on the problem, try to figure how you can make life easier for GA.When I decided to do my training in US economics where the sole reason for this. I just could not get a loan big enough for BAE in scotland but my training eneded up costing about 1/3 of the cost in Scotland.
JJ
THERE IS VIRTUALLY NO SUPPORT TO GA FROM EU!!!!!!!
Once JAA gets a grip of its regulations, fuel is cheaper, and taxes are lower things should get better.Then you have these bozos that move next to busy airports and next thing you know airport is being relocated beacuse of the noise sensitivity of the community... What a load of crap.
Those idiots sitting in Starsbourg and national governments have no clue that cost of flying and training is by far the biggest reason why wannabes from EU go elsewhere.
Until something is done about these things all this talk about who is better FAA or JAA is fruitless. Concentrate on the problem, try to figure how you can make life easier for GA.When I decided to do my training in US economics where the sole reason for this. I just could not get a loan big enough for BAE in scotland but my training eneded up costing about 1/3 of the cost in Scotland.
JJ
Guest
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Remember the USA didn't set up it's GA flying and training industry to attract foreign students. They choose to come even the likes of BA, Sabena and Lufthansa.
Why because the governments of europe continue to abuse and neglect GA flying with high taxation and unreasonable user charges.
Private flying in a country the size of the USA is almost a necessity to get around from more remote areas. That's why it does not get abused in the USA. Hence a more liberal and open policy on taxation, noise abatement and user fees. When europe decides flying is not a luxury(never) and a necessity like in the US the systems may become more balanced.
Regards
FYF
Why because the governments of europe continue to abuse and neglect GA flying with high taxation and unreasonable user charges.
Private flying in a country the size of the USA is almost a necessity to get around from more remote areas. That's why it does not get abused in the USA. Hence a more liberal and open policy on taxation, noise abatement and user fees. When europe decides flying is not a luxury(never) and a necessity like in the US the systems may become more balanced.
Regards
FYF
Guest
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Yeah, whatever. Fact is JAA is going to close down EU flying training in the US. Good news for every wannabe who serves any time as a flying instructor which is going to be most of those who don't get an airline sponsorship deal - something they don't have in the US.
No offense to Americans but they can shove their "free trade" arguements. I remember WW2 - how long it took for them to hear the bugle and how much money and land they extracted from the British in payment for their assistance in saving the free world.
Controversial?
WWW
ps thanks for tearing up Kyoto guys - real genius you got there in the White House.
No offense to Americans but they can shove their "free trade" arguements. I remember WW2 - how long it took for them to hear the bugle and how much money and land they extracted from the British in payment for their assistance in saving the free world.
Controversial?
WWW
ps thanks for tearing up Kyoto guys - real genius you got there in the White House.
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Big picture time guys.
Quite understandably you're mainly concerned with the GA and training differences between the two Authorities. That's because it's your hard earned or borrowed cash involved.
However, as most of you are intending to become professional pilots it's in your own interests to become better aquainted with the differences which will affect your own careers, safety and lifestyle.
Whether FTL's, performance issues, safety regulations or general oversight professionals labour under huge disadvantages under FAA rules. Those of us working behind the scenes on all these issues know exactly how frustrating the birth of JAA has been but still see it as the right and safer way to go.
A couple of examples: As you fly on your hols in a European registered non ETOPS 757 and are unlucky enough to suffer serious electrical failure it doesn't matter which company you fly. Ships battery and APU battery combine their efforts to get you safely down with up to 90 minutes to sort it out. Every 757 coming off the Boeing production line is so equipped in terms of allowing this but the FAA does't require it and therefore there are only two 757's in the US that have the required relays and cables fitted to complete the system.
As another example, Euro authority employees are constantly dismayed at the FAA regions being run as independent and personal fiefdoms. Many of you will be aware of the unusally steep approach into London City. One FAA Region happily approved a long range business jet to operate into that airport despite a slight problem.
Gear down, full flap, engines at idle, spoilers out and speed set to maintain Vref - the aircraft accelerated all the way down the slope!
Anyone who's been in this business for any length of time can spend an entire evening telling you much, much more. I've no axe to grind, have nothing to do with the training industry and have flown extensively for many enjoyable years in the States
I am concerned though, that many in the training system are developing highly colo(u)red views that will remain with them for a very long time. Assuming you intend to spend your working life as a pilot, the time spent gaining your licences is very short indeed and you should spend some time discovering more about the respective philosophies of the FAA and JAA.
ALPA was created and grew from nothing because of operators' attitudes to safety aided and abetted by the FAA and its predecessor. I strongly recommend that you make the reading of 'Flying the Line' part of your aviation education. If you intend to be a professional pilot for a long time - find out now before FAA good - JAA bad becomes an ingrained reaction to any aviation issue.
Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 02 April 2001).]
Quite understandably you're mainly concerned with the GA and training differences between the two Authorities. That's because it's your hard earned or borrowed cash involved.
However, as most of you are intending to become professional pilots it's in your own interests to become better aquainted with the differences which will affect your own careers, safety and lifestyle.
Whether FTL's, performance issues, safety regulations or general oversight professionals labour under huge disadvantages under FAA rules. Those of us working behind the scenes on all these issues know exactly how frustrating the birth of JAA has been but still see it as the right and safer way to go.
A couple of examples: As you fly on your hols in a European registered non ETOPS 757 and are unlucky enough to suffer serious electrical failure it doesn't matter which company you fly. Ships battery and APU battery combine their efforts to get you safely down with up to 90 minutes to sort it out. Every 757 coming off the Boeing production line is so equipped in terms of allowing this but the FAA does't require it and therefore there are only two 757's in the US that have the required relays and cables fitted to complete the system.
As another example, Euro authority employees are constantly dismayed at the FAA regions being run as independent and personal fiefdoms. Many of you will be aware of the unusally steep approach into London City. One FAA Region happily approved a long range business jet to operate into that airport despite a slight problem.
Gear down, full flap, engines at idle, spoilers out and speed set to maintain Vref - the aircraft accelerated all the way down the slope!
Anyone who's been in this business for any length of time can spend an entire evening telling you much, much more. I've no axe to grind, have nothing to do with the training industry and have flown extensively for many enjoyable years in the States
I am concerned though, that many in the training system are developing highly colo(u)red views that will remain with them for a very long time. Assuming you intend to spend your working life as a pilot, the time spent gaining your licences is very short indeed and you should spend some time discovering more about the respective philosophies of the FAA and JAA.
ALPA was created and grew from nothing because of operators' attitudes to safety aided and abetted by the FAA and its predecessor. I strongly recommend that you make the reading of 'Flying the Line' part of your aviation education. If you intend to be a professional pilot for a long time - find out now before FAA good - JAA bad becomes an ingrained reaction to any aviation issue.
Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 02 April 2001).]
Guest
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WWW,
You may have taken my post with the pre conceived notion that i am an american, i'm not and I left to train in the US for the reason i stated above,Financial.
I actually agree with you it will be better for all EU pilots but the fact still remains that it is the EU citizens who come here to train because of high prices.
Remove some of the user fees and taxation and make it cheaper and I would of been able to stay. I would of preferred it that way!!
Regards
FYF
[This message has been edited by Flare_you_fool! (edited 02 April 2001).]
You may have taken my post with the pre conceived notion that i am an american, i'm not and I left to train in the US for the reason i stated above,Financial.
I actually agree with you it will be better for all EU pilots but the fact still remains that it is the EU citizens who come here to train because of high prices.
Remove some of the user fees and taxation and make it cheaper and I would of been able to stay. I would of preferred it that way!!
Regards
FYF
[This message has been edited by Flare_you_fool! (edited 02 April 2001).]
Guest
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"Fact is JAA is going to close down EU flying training in the US."
Interesting statement from WWW. Personally I am getting fed up with people making seemingly factual statements in these forums when they have nothing concrete to base their statements on. I would suggest that you phrase such things more carefully, for example "EU flying training in the USA is still under ferocious debate and the final result will not be coming out any time soon".
I think that would be much safer, before someone goes too far and draws a more formal and legal response to irresposible comments than a mere reply to a post.
Interesting statement from WWW. Personally I am getting fed up with people making seemingly factual statements in these forums when they have nothing concrete to base their statements on. I would suggest that you phrase such things more carefully, for example "EU flying training in the USA is still under ferocious debate and the final result will not be coming out any time soon".
I think that would be much safer, before someone goes too far and draws a more formal and legal response to irresposible comments than a mere reply to a post.
Guest
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WWW I find it ironic that you talk about supporting the UK flying training industry and yet you are(or have been, unsure now of status) working for a firm which moved to Spain exactly for the same reasons that people go to the US. Cheaper training costs.
Also US airlines are starting to sponsor. Check out the $1.6 mil contract WMU signed with a US carrier to provide JAA type training. I believe that this is the first of its type and with the shortage of pilots over here I'm certain it won't be the last.
Generally I giggle to myself when I see comments equating cheap courses with rip-offs and expensive courses with quality. The history of training in both countries is littered with companies that have failed to deliver on price and quality.
Also US airlines are starting to sponsor. Check out the $1.6 mil contract WMU signed with a US carrier to provide JAA type training. I believe that this is the first of its type and with the shortage of pilots over here I'm certain it won't be the last.
Generally I giggle to myself when I see comments equating cheap courses with rip-offs and expensive courses with quality. The history of training in both countries is littered with companies that have failed to deliver on price and quality.
Guest
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Whilst the two should never really be uttered in the same sentence, simply divide the cost of a licence over the nationally safety stats, and again the US appears a better option. I’ve trained in both environments and my view of the situation is that the US takes a more practical approach to flying. The ground school their was silly, a week in the hot-tub with the Glim and a good first time pass. Flying is different, would the FAA want Dangerous pilots? There is a different system and training suits it. However I would say transiting between the two resulted in an easier time and small praise in the states, and a steep learning curve and added cost (greatly outweighed by the savings) in the UK. I’ve seen the shonkey outfits in the US, run by very shady types to trap the “I want a PPL, look at the big bright add in the mag, don’t do any more research types.” Why does the CAA allow this? They hold the power to licence.
The continual bickering in to who is best will not go away, all will hold their opinions, but butting in only having half the story doesn’t help. I’ve flown in both, and I’d rather be a British trained pilot, however. In the US, the cost per hour allows for a more “relaxed pace” of training. Something needs polishing up, didn’t get it just right, practice it a few more times. Now training in the UK, at commercial rates, the pressure to get things right first time every time is almost unbearable. “Practice” is a very pricey word in the UK. The navigation trips appear more of a “proof of concept” that applied X-countries; I got my 320nm req out the way in the states, many times over, BEFORE any Commercial training! I’ll train as much as I can in the UK, but if it’s a tick in the box hour requirement, I go to the states, It’s the only viable option.
There are many in the forum saying it’s a good thing, stopping people going the US for a cheap licence, I would agreed, but arguing for legislation to ban cheap training is in my view deplorable, if as much gusto was provided to campaigning to lower the cost of training here, people would stay here, out of choice. I wish to be an instructor, I want to see a vibrant GA in the UK, and I look to the US as a good founding model.
The continual bickering in to who is best will not go away, all will hold their opinions, but butting in only having half the story doesn’t help. I’ve flown in both, and I’d rather be a British trained pilot, however. In the US, the cost per hour allows for a more “relaxed pace” of training. Something needs polishing up, didn’t get it just right, practice it a few more times. Now training in the UK, at commercial rates, the pressure to get things right first time every time is almost unbearable. “Practice” is a very pricey word in the UK. The navigation trips appear more of a “proof of concept” that applied X-countries; I got my 320nm req out the way in the states, many times over, BEFORE any Commercial training! I’ll train as much as I can in the UK, but if it’s a tick in the box hour requirement, I go to the states, It’s the only viable option.
There are many in the forum saying it’s a good thing, stopping people going the US for a cheap licence, I would agreed, but arguing for legislation to ban cheap training is in my view deplorable, if as much gusto was provided to campaigning to lower the cost of training here, people would stay here, out of choice. I wish to be an instructor, I want to see a vibrant GA in the UK, and I look to the US as a good founding model.
Guest
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well.... if I read all the above correctly, the ideal would be to combine a US attitude with a European quality. I think if anyone here is really interested in doing the research, they'd find that's exactly what Cyclops was referring to.
How about a little of the "positive" for those who are trying to do exactly what people seem to want? Research, guys, then feel free to open thy gob!!
How about a little of the "positive" for those who are trying to do exactly what people seem to want? Research, guys, then feel free to open thy gob!!
Guest
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WWW: YOU SAY it should do wonders for the pilot shortage, but how many of the recent new-hires (non-military) in Europe have done some training or hour-building in the US? iF THE ANSWER is "a lot", then shutting down this avenue will create an acute pilot shortage in Europe, cramping airline expansion. I just can't see the Euro's reducing their costs, so the number of applicants will probably tail off, too. Maybe the JAA carriers would then be forced to hire from outside the JAA (shock-horror). Not what you wanted.....
Who ever waffled about Americans working in BA versus Brits in the US carriers, it's purely a matter of getting the work permits. Just the same in the UK - NO WORK VISA - NO JOB. I'm saying that as a Brit working for one of the US Majors (where I've been made to feel most welcome, and NEVER heard a bad word about Brits - I'm ashamed by a lot of the jingoistic cr@p that a lot of my fellow countrymen spurt forth on this site. I can only assume that a lot of it is ignorance or jealousy).
BEags: good postings. As you point out, the two systems are very different. You've probably spoken to colleagues that have done exchange tours; it's like comparing the RAF with the USAF. Two different worlds, especially in customer service.
Ronchonner: I suspected from earlier rantings before this thread that you were angry because you'd failed to get that big break over in the US with a Major carrier. No millions for you. Bummer. I guess you secretly, desperately, wanted to stay. Oh well. No green card, mate, no airline jet-job. Get over it. It was your decision to spend thousands in the US doing your licences, and then instructing. It's not AA's, UA's or Delta's fault, and to be honest, you're still not competitive. No shortage of applicants to the biggies, despite McCain's mis-information campaign.
Who ever waffled about Americans working in BA versus Brits in the US carriers, it's purely a matter of getting the work permits. Just the same in the UK - NO WORK VISA - NO JOB. I'm saying that as a Brit working for one of the US Majors (where I've been made to feel most welcome, and NEVER heard a bad word about Brits - I'm ashamed by a lot of the jingoistic cr@p that a lot of my fellow countrymen spurt forth on this site. I can only assume that a lot of it is ignorance or jealousy).
BEags: good postings. As you point out, the two systems are very different. You've probably spoken to colleagues that have done exchange tours; it's like comparing the RAF with the USAF. Two different worlds, especially in customer service.
Ronchonner: I suspected from earlier rantings before this thread that you were angry because you'd failed to get that big break over in the US with a Major carrier. No millions for you. Bummer. I guess you secretly, desperately, wanted to stay. Oh well. No green card, mate, no airline jet-job. Get over it. It was your decision to spend thousands in the US doing your licences, and then instructing. It's not AA's, UA's or Delta's fault, and to be honest, you're still not competitive. No shortage of applicants to the biggies, despite McCain's mis-information campaign.
Guest
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Yes but BAE Systems in Jerez is run by Brits, most of the students are British and employs a majority of British instructors.
It therefore support British GA. The aircraft at Prestwick never did any flying other than commercial flying training anyway.
We are in the EU and in JAA now. Free moevement in europe is fine - I have no problem with that.
As a personal example I was sat in the depths of winter 1999 with very little work as a UK flying instructor. Up walks BAe and offers me a ton of work in Spain. Within a fortnight I'm installed with a Spanish contract/bank account/employment rights etc. on a an open ended "stay here for life if you want" basis. Therefore it was really NO different working in another EU country as it would be working in another UK county. Effectively Europe - from an employment view and in my case - is one big single country. Great!
Plus of course there is much less hour building now under JAA so there is less incentive to go to the USA. By the time you have done a PPL and IMC in the UK all you are looking at is another 40 hrs and they can be had for £2,400 sterling in the UK anyway.
The choice people is this. Save possibly £1,500 on hours building by going to the US and then find you can't get a job for 6 months and when you do its as an ad hoc on call flyiing instructor earning £10 a day OR you have to move the US get a visa etc. and anyway leave after 2 years because they kick you out. OR get slightly more expensive hour building IN THE FLYING AREA that you'll be soon doing you CPL flying training and FLIGHT TEST in (join up the dots kids). Then when you are waiting for Mr Branson or My Eddington to return that call you can consider the option(s) of which salaried flying instructor job to take.
Jam today or jam tommorrow friends...
WWW
It therefore support British GA. The aircraft at Prestwick never did any flying other than commercial flying training anyway.
We are in the EU and in JAA now. Free moevement in europe is fine - I have no problem with that.
As a personal example I was sat in the depths of winter 1999 with very little work as a UK flying instructor. Up walks BAe and offers me a ton of work in Spain. Within a fortnight I'm installed with a Spanish contract/bank account/employment rights etc. on a an open ended "stay here for life if you want" basis. Therefore it was really NO different working in another EU country as it would be working in another UK county. Effectively Europe - from an employment view and in my case - is one big single country. Great!
Plus of course there is much less hour building now under JAA so there is less incentive to go to the USA. By the time you have done a PPL and IMC in the UK all you are looking at is another 40 hrs and they can be had for £2,400 sterling in the UK anyway.
The choice people is this. Save possibly £1,500 on hours building by going to the US and then find you can't get a job for 6 months and when you do its as an ad hoc on call flyiing instructor earning £10 a day OR you have to move the US get a visa etc. and anyway leave after 2 years because they kick you out. OR get slightly more expensive hour building IN THE FLYING AREA that you'll be soon doing you CPL flying training and FLIGHT TEST in (join up the dots kids). Then when you are waiting for Mr Branson or My Eddington to return that call you can consider the option(s) of which salaried flying instructor job to take.
Jam today or jam tommorrow friends...
WWW
Guest
Posts: n/a
WWW. So a Brit run school, employing Brits is okay,... unless its in the US. whiffs of hypocrisy.
Protecting JAA training standards by requiring JAA Licenced instructors would be the correct avenue, US pilots would either have undergo large amounts of training and expense (not probable) or the US would have to offer work permits as JAA instructors posses the skills required and non-obtainable in the US.
how does shipping an entire school away from the UK still support UK Avation? it would be easy to conclude it were critical of the UK attitude to GA.
[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 03 April 2001).]
Protecting JAA training standards by requiring JAA Licenced instructors would be the correct avenue, US pilots would either have undergo large amounts of training and expense (not probable) or the US would have to offer work permits as JAA instructors posses the skills required and non-obtainable in the US.
how does shipping an entire school away from the UK still support UK Avation? it would be easy to conclude it were critical of the UK attitude to GA.
[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 03 April 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
WWW. It's ok waving the flag, I'm old enough to remember the flag wavers when we had a British car industry. Let's be realistic and accept that like the British car industry was, British flight training is overpriced and like the car industry is likely to become a rare animal in the realistic world. Waving the flag and being exclusive is hardly the way forward. I see no difference between training in the USA or Spain, neither place is the UK. The fact that Brits are employed in Spain as instructors is encouraging and commendable but nevertheless not an overwhelming consideration in deciding where all training should be carried out, well not to me anyway! Aviation is a global industry and the two main players are Europe and the USA it's time that the two leading players came together to agree common standards for training and qualification.
Has anybody heard the news that the British Empire has fallen?
[This message has been edited by Sensible (edited 04 April 2001).]
Has anybody heard the news that the British Empire has fallen?
[This message has been edited by Sensible (edited 04 April 2001).]
Guest
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Little r. t.
"...having the skills required and not obtainable in the US..."
EXCUSE ME? nOT quite sure how you meant that to sound, but I know of lots of people over here with UK/ other European instructors quals. Guess we don't have the skills anymore because we emigrated....
Good post though...
"...having the skills required and not obtainable in the US..."
EXCUSE ME? nOT quite sure how you meant that to sound, but I know of lots of people over here with UK/ other European instructors quals. Guess we don't have the skills anymore because we emigrated....
Good post though...
Guest
Posts: n/a
As someone else said, 'reputable' flight schools are obviously quite acceptable wherever they are. But there are some, shall we say, 'minimum standard' PPL-farms in the US whose output products are demonstrably poor. The UK CAA knows this, but considers that there is no 'safety case' as no-one will let one of these pilots lose on their own in the UK without further training - and that will cost some of them around £1000!!
Incidentally, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Jerez only taking students who have been aptitude tested nowadays? Rather than just anyone who can secure the dosh needed?
[This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 04 April 2001).]
Incidentally, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Jerez only taking students who have been aptitude tested nowadays? Rather than just anyone who can secure the dosh needed?
[This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 04 April 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
BEagle you are correct. All self sponsored applicants have to pass a battery of aptitude tests before being accepted in Jerez. Quality of output being the name of the game in what will hopefully turn out to be an upwardly spiralling spirall of better applicants > better graduates > better job offers > better applicants.
The EU cannot compete against the US due to our inherent higher cost structures. Therefore we shall operate as a unified trading block with closed borders between FAA and JAA. Simple.
The same thing also means of course that the door is closed to lots of non-EU pilots thus helping you enormously to get that first job once you have stumped up your full whack for your JAA training. Remember - getting a job is what its ALL about in the end.
WWW
The EU cannot compete against the US due to our inherent higher cost structures. Therefore we shall operate as a unified trading block with closed borders between FAA and JAA. Simple.
The same thing also means of course that the door is closed to lots of non-EU pilots thus helping you enormously to get that first job once you have stumped up your full whack for your JAA training. Remember - getting a job is what its ALL about in the end.
WWW