Airline applications
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Airline applications
I am trying to find out just how much weight is placed upon ATPL examination results when applying for jobs.
I have the CTC application form and they just ask how many attempts you needed for each set. So do most airlines want to know the actual grades or do they not care so long as you have passed.
Any info. greatly appreciated.
cheers,
TSP
I have the CTC application form and they just ask how many attempts you needed for each set. So do most airlines want to know the actual grades or do they not care so long as you have passed.
Any info. greatly appreciated.
cheers,
TSP
Join Date: Mar 2000
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TSP - I'm sure that you'll find that the airlines couldn't give two hoots as to what grades you got in your ground exams. I think they'll take an interest in where you did you training and possibly if you got first time passes in the air. I believe that they are more interested in whether you will fit in with their company so that boils down to the personality tests and a good interview performance. At the end of the day it's all about selling yourself that you are the right/best one for the job, and that process starts with getting your CV noticed. If you did get high results in your ground exams then I suggest you include that in your CV eg "averaged 92% in ground exams". Best of luck for the future.
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Don't think it matters were you did them But for some Having a first time pass shows you'll have no trouble with type rating theory that you'll have to do thro-out your working life.
Some high end airlines may also expect to see average passes of 85%. BUT having said all that I know at least one 737 capt. who failed a paper on first attempt and is working for a small but good charter airline, so If you didn't get them all first time its not the end of the line.
Some high end airlines may also expect to see average passes of 85%. BUT having said all that I know at least one 737 capt. who failed a paper on first attempt and is working for a small but good charter airline, so If you didn't get them all first time its not the end of the line.
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Just as universities are interested in your A-level grades, so the administrators of sponsorship schemes are interested in exam results. Most airlines are only actually interested in the fact that you have the licence, not where or how you got it.
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Exam results become irrelavent once you have some time under your belt, but if you are applying for an airline job staight from flight school they will look at the exam results as they have very little else to go on. I would agree however that a clean sheet through GFT and IR are more important.
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Ok, conflicting theories here. Oxford bash into you how important it is to get a first time pass in your groundschool, even better to get an average of 85% +.
Also, you MUST get a first time pass IR or your job prospects will take a severe hammering. Now this put the fear of god up me but is this just another Oxfordism?
I, like many others, know of folk who took several attempts at groundschool exams and a couple of attepts at the IR and are now happily employed (albeit with none of the big boys)
Granted, a first time pass groundschool does show you can cope with the workload of the type rating theory, but can it all be that important you get everything first time or is it as Scroggs says and are they only interested in the fact you have the licence?
Also, you MUST get a first time pass IR or your job prospects will take a severe hammering. Now this put the fear of god up me but is this just another Oxfordism?
I, like many others, know of folk who took several attempts at groundschool exams and a couple of attepts at the IR and are now happily employed (albeit with none of the big boys)
Granted, a first time pass groundschool does show you can cope with the workload of the type rating theory, but can it all be that important you get everything first time or is it as Scroggs says and are they only interested in the fact you have the licence?
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My view is do your very best in the groundschool but not everyone has a theoretical flair (me for one!) but in my opinion (ex-RAF QFI) the Single Pilot IR is one of the hardest tests in aviation and a first time pass in that has to be a bonus on your CV.
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Broken Wings,
"I think they'll take an interest in where you did you training and possibly if you got first time passes in the air. I believe that they are more interested in whether you will fit in with their company so that boils down to the personality tests and a good interview performance. At the end of the day it's all about selling yourself that you are the right/best one for the job, and that process starts with getting your CV noticed."
This is all very well when you get your interview but to get your application and CV noticed in order to get an interview you have to be able to offer the airline something that they want.
An airline taking on a self improver with low hours is looking to reduce their training risk as far as possible. They want someone who will not have trouble passing the type rating exams and who will be able to pass the IR on type at the end of the sim course.
The best way to demonstrate this is by having first time passes with good grades in the ATPL theory subjects and having first time passes in the flying. Having a CPL IR with frozen ATPL is an absolute minimum qualification (no one applying for an aircrew position with an airline will get far without it) so you do need to put yourself above this level.
"I think they'll take an interest in where you did you training and possibly if you got first time passes in the air. I believe that they are more interested in whether you will fit in with their company so that boils down to the personality tests and a good interview performance. At the end of the day it's all about selling yourself that you are the right/best one for the job, and that process starts with getting your CV noticed."
This is all very well when you get your interview but to get your application and CV noticed in order to get an interview you have to be able to offer the airline something that they want.
An airline taking on a self improver with low hours is looking to reduce their training risk as far as possible. They want someone who will not have trouble passing the type rating exams and who will be able to pass the IR on type at the end of the sim course.
The best way to demonstrate this is by having first time passes with good grades in the ATPL theory subjects and having first time passes in the flying. Having a CPL IR with frozen ATPL is an absolute minimum qualification (no one applying for an aircrew position with an airline will get far without it) so you do need to put yourself above this level.
Unfortunately it doesn't seem to make much difference. I have seen graduates get jobs who had stumbled through both their ground and flight exams with plenty of partial passes and re-sits. Meanwhile the ace of the base doesn't seem to get a look in.
There is a huge lottery aspect to first jobs.
Obviously the better you do on a course the better it will look if anyone at interview is that interested to check. That said a failure along the way in training can provide a useful talking point at interview along the line of "How I address failure and overcome it".
There are PLENTY of very fine pilots out there who fluffed part or all of their IR. Similarly there are pilots out there who stumbled through their IR on a fine day, on the route they practiced most on a day when the examiner was in a good mood (probably a blue moon that evening). Its not really a very good measure of how 'hot' someone is or how they would perform on a conversions course.
Thats really the job of the Sim Assessment. The interview should be about you, your personality and how your aspirations fit with that of the airline.
Try hard for first time passes and 85% - but don't sweat if you blot the copybook.
Cheers
WWW
There is a huge lottery aspect to first jobs.
Obviously the better you do on a course the better it will look if anyone at interview is that interested to check. That said a failure along the way in training can provide a useful talking point at interview along the line of "How I address failure and overcome it".
There are PLENTY of very fine pilots out there who fluffed part or all of their IR. Similarly there are pilots out there who stumbled through their IR on a fine day, on the route they practiced most on a day when the examiner was in a good mood (probably a blue moon that evening). Its not really a very good measure of how 'hot' someone is or how they would perform on a conversions course.
Thats really the job of the Sim Assessment. The interview should be about you, your personality and how your aspirations fit with that of the airline.
Try hard for first time passes and 85% - but don't sweat if you blot the copybook.
Cheers
WWW
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WWW
I agree with what you say. The point I was making however, was that first time passes will help in getting an interview not necessarily the job.
If you get to the interview stage of the application process then its down to personality, at the sim assessment your flying ability and learning skills.
At the application form / CV stage all these aspects have yet to come to the fore and all are roughly equal. If you can put down that you have first time passes it cant hurt in securing an interview.
Having written that though, I wouldn't worry too much about some failures as, as you say, it doesnt seem to hold a lot of people back.
I agree with what you say. The point I was making however, was that first time passes will help in getting an interview not necessarily the job.
If you get to the interview stage of the application process then its down to personality, at the sim assessment your flying ability and learning skills.
At the application form / CV stage all these aspects have yet to come to the fore and all are roughly equal. If you can put down that you have first time passes it cant hurt in securing an interview.
Having written that though, I wouldn't worry too much about some failures as, as you say, it doesnt seem to hold a lot of people back.
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www i agree with most of what you say. but you place great faith in the sim assesment. at least the ir attempts to be objective - most sim assessments are a lottery + i speak having been both sides of the controls on them. everything you say about the shortcomings of the ir in indicating a pilots worth is true of sim checks + the rest
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Unless you have already had a couple of resits, I wouldn't even think about what the airlines might or might not think about failing a couple of ground school exams. Ultimately, the material is not that difficult to get your head round. There is a ton of it, but that can all be taken care of with a lot of hard work. Put in the study hours, make sure you're doing well on the practise tests, and I can assure you the results will come.
Why on earth would someone consider slacking off or doing 'just enough to pass'? This is an attitude I think is all too prevelent (in general, not to you personally two-speed). Going for a first-time airline job is tough enough as it is. You want as much going for you as possible, and the only way a 85% or even 90% average is going to hurt you is in missing a few nights down the pub. It's rough if you have a job or two on the side as well, but sacraficing a year or two of your life will pay dividends later.
Half the battle is getting an interview. Once you've got that, you know the airline ultimately wants to hire you, otherwise they're wasting their time. Getting good marks will only help you get an interview, so go for it.
-abracadabra
Why on earth would someone consider slacking off or doing 'just enough to pass'? This is an attitude I think is all too prevelent (in general, not to you personally two-speed). Going for a first-time airline job is tough enough as it is. You want as much going for you as possible, and the only way a 85% or even 90% average is going to hurt you is in missing a few nights down the pub. It's rough if you have a job or two on the side as well, but sacraficing a year or two of your life will pay dividends later.
Half the battle is getting an interview. Once you've got that, you know the airline ultimately wants to hire you, otherwise they're wasting their time. Getting good marks will only help you get an interview, so go for it.
-abracadabra
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The truth 2SP is that there are far too many fATPL holders who are virtually unemployable. I’ve seen people struggling away (at both the flying and groundschool), failing tests repeatedly, pouring good money after bad until eventually, in a triumph of persistence over ability, they get their licence. Extraordinary, but they often seem to be the people who have difficulty getting a job.
If you were an airline (or CTC) and were inundated with applications from people who where theoretically qualified for the small number of places you had available would you spend your time looking at:
a) the applicants who had several attempts at the JAA groundschool exams and passed their CPL and IR on second or more attempts, or alternatively…
b) those who passed everything first time?
Sure, there is far more to suitability than passing everything first time round (which may explain some exceptions to the rule). Sure there are plenty of people who have got jobs who did not pass everything first time (especially in times of less competition for jobs). But if you were paying for someone’s type rating, I suspect you’d pick the person who looked as if they would be the lowest risk of needing extra training and/or failing. Past performance in training is an excellent predictor of future performance in training.
If you were an airline (or CTC) and were inundated with applications from people who where theoretically qualified for the small number of places you had available would you spend your time looking at:
a) the applicants who had several attempts at the JAA groundschool exams and passed their CPL and IR on second or more attempts, or alternatively…
b) those who passed everything first time?
Sure, there is far more to suitability than passing everything first time round (which may explain some exceptions to the rule). Sure there are plenty of people who have got jobs who did not pass everything first time (especially in times of less competition for jobs). But if you were paying for someone’s type rating, I suspect you’d pick the person who looked as if they would be the lowest risk of needing extra training and/or failing. Past performance in training is an excellent predictor of future performance in training.
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It's a Lottery!
It totally depends on the luck of the draw. I know people who have taken years to pass their ATPL exams and have failed the I/R on a few occasions and they have got jobs without too much waiting. One such person was offered the job during the actual interview itself.
It all depends on if your number is drawn out of the hat!
It all depends on if your number is drawn out of the hat!
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Pink Pilot, are you serious? When it comes to interview or even application form any airline is not going to care about your PPL days. What they want is a Commercial Licence a current IR MCC, sufficient experience and the ability to fit in. Don't worry about your partial in other words.
Cheers
Cheers
