Lost all your CAA ATPL Exam Credits?
Guest
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To be honest although I can see why you are upset, you have put alot of effort in. There is a bit inside me is saying Darwin is working again. Less pilots completing the hoops means more chance for me to get a job at the end of it all. I know you are trying to rally support to get the JAA to change things because you think they are unfair but i don't think its going to happen and you should accept that and move on.
To be honest I don't think the JAR exams are particularly nasty. They are multiple choice with only 4 choices and no negative marking. 75% is the minimal pass rate which the can set which means that the exam is valid and not a random number game. I bet if they dropped the mark to 65% almost all of the wannabes who have failed would have passed first time. You either know the material or you don't.
BTW I am still waiting for the last set of exam results so i could have very well muffed the whole lot up as well.
MJ
To be honest I don't think the JAR exams are particularly nasty. They are multiple choice with only 4 choices and no negative marking. 75% is the minimal pass rate which the can set which means that the exam is valid and not a random number game. I bet if they dropped the mark to 65% almost all of the wannabes who have failed would have passed first time. You either know the material or you don't.
BTW I am still waiting for the last set of exam results so i could have very well muffed the whole lot up as well.
MJ
Guest
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I think the mere fact that this and similar threads surronding this delicate issue,have made the 40 something mark tells me that there is enough argument and maybe weight to take to the CAA,if given the chance.What i would say is this!!!!.Get your personal reasons down in a letter and get it sent off.Remember you only have fourteen days to apeal.You can not go steaming in expecting anybody to listen to you if you act outside this time period.There letter quite clearly states this on the back of your`e exam results.By my reckoning you only have a few days left,so get your`e arguments or whatever,down to aviation house pronto.Remember the more letters,then maybe more the chance that somebody will listen to us,and if we don`t get change then maybe the ideas we can bring to there attention,may stop this horrendous situation happening to others in the future.
My own personal feeling is that once you let somebody enter an educational vocation with qualification at the end of it,then you must let them out the other end,as is the case with doctors lawyers,dentists,banking etc,but then again that would be to simple wouldn`t it!!!!
My own personal feeling is that once you let somebody enter an educational vocation with qualification at the end of it,then you must let them out the other end,as is the case with doctors lawyers,dentists,banking etc,but then again that would be to simple wouldn`t it!!!!
Guest
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Well after spending he night with a fanny mechanic ( gyny doctor)in the pub discussing this and being a charter engineer myself.We have all payed out alot more in fees than the JAR has ever talked about. And all have had alot worse exam failure rates than JAR.
Stop moaning, produce the goods or sod off.
MJ
Stop moaning, produce the goods or sod off.
MJ
Guest
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Touch and Go,
I think my last post was entirely relevant to the argument. How on earth can you trust someone like the CAA if this practice of flogging exam papers to the highest bidder was going on. It was reported in a number of well known aviation magazines, so they obviously thought it was a newsworthy event!
It is similar in a way to the practice that was adopted by the south african CAA of selling fake licences a few months back until they were found out. They were totally ripped apart on this forum so why would you turn a blind eye to our own CAA effectively doing
the same????
It is without doubt our duty as the paying customers to question the issue of exam time limits and anything else we see fit that we might not agree with!
It seems to me that we just go along with whatever the CAA sets out, could you imagine if we agreed with all policies set out by a political party ever? well there would never be a need for a challenge of government would they??
Mad_Jock you were doing o.k. until your last
posting, I don't think it is particularly diplomatic to say ' if you don't like it s*d off' Hope you enjoy your hours building in the states (if you can squeeze in the seat)
I think my last post was entirely relevant to the argument. How on earth can you trust someone like the CAA if this practice of flogging exam papers to the highest bidder was going on. It was reported in a number of well known aviation magazines, so they obviously thought it was a newsworthy event!
It is similar in a way to the practice that was adopted by the south african CAA of selling fake licences a few months back until they were found out. They were totally ripped apart on this forum so why would you turn a blind eye to our own CAA effectively doing
the same????
It is without doubt our duty as the paying customers to question the issue of exam time limits and anything else we see fit that we might not agree with!
It seems to me that we just go along with whatever the CAA sets out, could you imagine if we agreed with all policies set out by a political party ever? well there would never be a need for a challenge of government would they??
Mad_Jock you were doing o.k. until your last
posting, I don't think it is particularly diplomatic to say ' if you don't like it s*d off' Hope you enjoy your hours building in the states (if you can squeeze in the seat)
Guest
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I would like to apolgise for the last post.
I am suffering the head just now for it. And the associated smelly guts etc.
It's not very tactful to the current topic but i recieved the fax from Aviation house with my results for the techs and it was good news. My mates took me out to see how many different types of booze they could feed me without being sick and i won last night but i am definately failing just now. Work has just phoned to say get your arse in and fix this facking server which i am not very interested in doing.
But if you decide to go for the JAR exam route i have 2000+ feedback qestions for the techs i don't need now and i can send them to you if you.
MJ
edited for worse than usual spelling and a trip to the can.
[This message has been edited by mad_jock (edited 27 June 2001).]
I am suffering the head just now for it. And the associated smelly guts etc.
It's not very tactful to the current topic but i recieved the fax from Aviation house with my results for the techs and it was good news. My mates took me out to see how many different types of booze they could feed me without being sick and i won last night but i am definately failing just now. Work has just phoned to say get your arse in and fix this facking server which i am not very interested in doing.
But if you decide to go for the JAR exam route i have 2000+ feedback qestions for the techs i don't need now and i can send them to you if you.
MJ
edited for worse than usual spelling and a trip to the can.
[This message has been edited by mad_jock (edited 27 June 2001).]
Guest
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Many thanks for all your postings on to this thread in response to my original message. Some of you have had some interesting things to say, some have missed the point somewhat and some have just used this as an excuse to slag off the CAA! But it would appear that there is much support in trying to pursuade the CAA to at least listen to the opinion. I agree that the CAA must draw the line somewhere in the move from UK to JAR and the general opinion seems to be that they will not move that line of Jun 01. OK! But what about giving credits where they are due? The point was raised that if you fail your Perf A under the UK rules after the deadline, then it can be taken again under JAR - why can't the CAA negotiate something similar with the Nav and Tech Exams? It is must frustrating to know that I was so close and yet I am so far from the ATPL(A)! So where do we go now? Those of you in the same situation, you only have a couple of days left to write to the CAA - go on do it! What harm can it do? I will let you all know what the CAA say in reponse to my letter that I sent off over a week ago! Until then keep the support coming! If in doubt - write!
Guest
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Ferret,
The CAA will say 'no'. The other postings on this topic will confirm that. The softly, softly approach will not work. I have to say though that even I am starting to think that you have bought this on yourself.
Get your head back in the books son, stop whingeing, start scrimping and saving for your exam fees, you may make it, you may not,
heh but at least you will have had some fun ticking boxes instead of actually flying an aircraft commercially!
The CAA will say 'no'. The other postings on this topic will confirm that. The softly, softly approach will not work. I have to say though that even I am starting to think that you have bought this on yourself.
Get your head back in the books son, stop whingeing, start scrimping and saving for your exam fees, you may make it, you may not,
heh but at least you will have had some fun ticking boxes instead of actually flying an aircraft commercially!
Guest
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And another thing, if the CAA changed the rule for you, they would have to do it for everyone, including all students past and present that have failed exams by one or two per-cent. That is why you are wasting your time, the only way the situation could improve in my view is if the CAA/JAA adopted a different policy entirely.
Can't see it happening somehow, so get back to your books and box ticking boy!!!
Can't see it happening somehow, so get back to your books and box ticking boy!!!
Guest
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Crash Barrier
Thank you for your rather condescending, pessamistic and jeering response! If your "kick a man while he's down in the hope that he'll stand up" approach is supposed to work - it has not!
If you took the time to read back through this thread you will see that I am not asking the CAA to just change the rules for me - I am looking for a fair assessment of this situation in which I know that I am not alone.
In my mind there is no harm in challenging the system and making people think. If at the end of the day the CAA say "no" then so be it - but at least I tried.
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The Ferret!
Thank you for your rather condescending, pessamistic and jeering response! If your "kick a man while he's down in the hope that he'll stand up" approach is supposed to work - it has not!
If you took the time to read back through this thread you will see that I am not asking the CAA to just change the rules for me - I am looking for a fair assessment of this situation in which I know that I am not alone.
In my mind there is no harm in challenging the system and making people think. If at the end of the day the CAA say "no" then so be it - but at least I tried.
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The Ferret!
Guest
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Ferret,
A fair assessment of the situation is that is not fair. I don’t think that can be in debate.
The fact is that it, for most of us, has never been what we would call 'fair'.
CB has a very valid point.
If the rules were changed for you (and I suspect that they can’t be), the CAA would have a flood of compensation claims from those who played the game by the 'unfair' rules, knowing them to be rules the game had to be played by.
As I have said before this is not an easy profession and the rules may seem unfair, but it has to be a level playing field….. for us all.
And don’t think that challenging the system is something new, I suspect we've all had a go at some stage.
A fair assessment of the situation is that is not fair. I don’t think that can be in debate.
The fact is that it, for most of us, has never been what we would call 'fair'.
CB has a very valid point.
If the rules were changed for you (and I suspect that they can’t be), the CAA would have a flood of compensation claims from those who played the game by the 'unfair' rules, knowing them to be rules the game had to be played by.
As I have said before this is not an easy profession and the rules may seem unfair, but it has to be a level playing field….. for us all.
And don’t think that challenging the system is something new, I suspect we've all had a go at some stage.
Guest
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Ferret,
The 'fair assessment' that you will get from the CAA will be to re-study the 'lot!'
I am not mocking you but you really wont get anywhere this way, you will end up bitter and twisted. Do not give the CAA the satisfaction of grovelling, snivelling or anything else.
Have dignity, either re-study the JAA syllabus or try elsewhere (south africa used to be an easy licence to get)
Good Luck!
The 'fair assessment' that you will get from the CAA will be to re-study the 'lot!'
I am not mocking you but you really wont get anywhere this way, you will end up bitter and twisted. Do not give the CAA the satisfaction of grovelling, snivelling or anything else.
Have dignity, either re-study the JAA syllabus or try elsewhere (south africa used to be an easy licence to get)
Good Luck!
Guest
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Do excuse me if I sound arrogant or unfair but if you can't pass your exams second time then maybe your in the wrong job. Sure at the end of the day many of the exams are a means to an end an will have no relevance once you have a commercial job, but the difficulty level of studying for an aircraft type rating is both (in my opinion) harder and more intense then the ATPL's ever were. Anyone in this boat should maybe consider finding a new career before you waste any more money.
Guest
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If the baseline qualifications for becoming a pilot never changed, so that no-one was disadvantaged by that change, then there would be no licences at all. Wilbur and Orville had none, did they? As aviation has developed, both technologically and politically, the licensing requirements have changed to match. Each change has had a deadline, and inevitably some have failed to make that deadline. The authorities concerned (whether CAA, JAA, FAA or whoever) give what they consider to be sufficient notice of that change and expect you to read what they say and do what is necessary to either pass the old system before the change, or enrol under the new system so that the change deadline doesn't affect you. It's a judgement call that only an individual can make according to their own ability, knowledge and confidence. If you call it wrong, well, them's the breaks. You knew what the stakes were.
Any change in a deadine is unfair to those who managed to organise themselves to achieve the original deadline. It is also unfair to those who have been 'caught out' (ie, were unprepared for) previous deadlines. Both groups would have a far more legitimate claim against the authorities than those who have failed by the latest deadline.
The bottom line is, you knew the rules. You didn't make it. You now have to do what you always knew you would if this happened. That is not unfair, but it is hard. Bite the bullet and get on with it!
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Scroggs
Wannabes Forum Moderator
[email protected]
Any change in a deadine is unfair to those who managed to organise themselves to achieve the original deadline. It is also unfair to those who have been 'caught out' (ie, were unprepared for) previous deadlines. Both groups would have a far more legitimate claim against the authorities than those who have failed by the latest deadline.
The bottom line is, you knew the rules. You didn't make it. You now have to do what you always knew you would if this happened. That is not unfair, but it is hard. Bite the bullet and get on with it!
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Scroggs
Wannabes Forum Moderator
[email protected]
