Leeds Degree 2
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
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Hmm. It would seem that I have wound a few people up here!
Firstly, let me admit that I was wrong to decide that this course was of more relevance to engineers and technicians. That's not to say I'm convinced of its benefits to wannabe pilots, but I certainly acknowledge its interest to our people.
However, I don't accept the suggestion that I'm dictating what people should think! The opinion I expressed was my own, and I have in no way discouraged anyone from disagreeing with me or from putting their own take on the subject. Please don't think that because I argue my point I feel that your opinions are worthless - such an interpretation places far too much weight on my opinions vs. yours! However, I do have a great deal of experience in this business, and not just in flying. I have had a considerable amount to do with recruiting for the RAF, and, when Virgin was hiring, I had a bit of an input there as well. I do know what I'm talking about!
Statler Unfortunately, an aviation degree doesn't make you stand out from the crowd. The fact that you have a degree is most definately in your favour, but the subject (at least for a pilot) is almost irrelevant - untill the airlines, or military, decide that degrees are compulsory.
LFS You're right that many of the students on this course would be highly motivated to succeed, but to suggest that the course would reduce the time spent on a modular course is both disengenuous and misses the point. The wannabe who wishes to start his pilot training immediately after his A-levels will do so whatever - and, all being well, will finish his integrated course some 18 months before this course's students graduate. With a PPL! The wannabe who decides that a degree is the way to go will weigh up the potential benefits of, say, a law degree (sorry, G-LOFT!) should flying not work out, against this qualification. I think that law, or whatever, stands a good chance of winning this particular contest. It's also unlikely, I would contend, that this course would reduce the time to complete a modular course as too many other factors are involved. Obviously, it can make no difference to the length of an integrated course.
At the end of the day, it's the individual's choice. I'm not putting this course down, per se, but I do question some of the assumptions that go along with it. I certainly do not accept that this degree makes a candidate more likely to get a pilot job than any other - as things stand right now. However, as always, the proof will be in the longer term. I expect that the course will be well subscribed, as wannabes will, by nature, grasp whatever they feel might impreove their chances. In four or five years' time, we'll know whether taking this degree was a better choice than, say, doing Business Studies. I, as you must know by now, have my doubts.
Anyway, it's up to you whether you try this course or not. I'm sure you'll enjoy it, and I'm also sure it will develop over time to better fit the needs of its students. Just don't expect it to give you much of an advantage over a graduate of any other degree course. And that, as my opinion is unpopular, will be my final word on this topic.
Firstly, let me admit that I was wrong to decide that this course was of more relevance to engineers and technicians. That's not to say I'm convinced of its benefits to wannabe pilots, but I certainly acknowledge its interest to our people.
However, I don't accept the suggestion that I'm dictating what people should think! The opinion I expressed was my own, and I have in no way discouraged anyone from disagreeing with me or from putting their own take on the subject. Please don't think that because I argue my point I feel that your opinions are worthless - such an interpretation places far too much weight on my opinions vs. yours! However, I do have a great deal of experience in this business, and not just in flying. I have had a considerable amount to do with recruiting for the RAF, and, when Virgin was hiring, I had a bit of an input there as well. I do know what I'm talking about!
Statler Unfortunately, an aviation degree doesn't make you stand out from the crowd. The fact that you have a degree is most definately in your favour, but the subject (at least for a pilot) is almost irrelevant - untill the airlines, or military, decide that degrees are compulsory.
LFS You're right that many of the students on this course would be highly motivated to succeed, but to suggest that the course would reduce the time spent on a modular course is both disengenuous and misses the point. The wannabe who wishes to start his pilot training immediately after his A-levels will do so whatever - and, all being well, will finish his integrated course some 18 months before this course's students graduate. With a PPL! The wannabe who decides that a degree is the way to go will weigh up the potential benefits of, say, a law degree (sorry, G-LOFT!) should flying not work out, against this qualification. I think that law, or whatever, stands a good chance of winning this particular contest. It's also unlikely, I would contend, that this course would reduce the time to complete a modular course as too many other factors are involved. Obviously, it can make no difference to the length of an integrated course.
At the end of the day, it's the individual's choice. I'm not putting this course down, per se, but I do question some of the assumptions that go along with it. I certainly do not accept that this degree makes a candidate more likely to get a pilot job than any other - as things stand right now. However, as always, the proof will be in the longer term. I expect that the course will be well subscribed, as wannabes will, by nature, grasp whatever they feel might impreove their chances. In four or five years' time, we'll know whether taking this degree was a better choice than, say, doing Business Studies. I, as you must know by now, have my doubts.
Anyway, it's up to you whether you try this course or not. I'm sure you'll enjoy it, and I'm also sure it will develop over time to better fit the needs of its students. Just don't expect it to give you much of an advantage over a graduate of any other degree course. And that, as my opinion is unpopular, will be my final word on this topic.
Yeah I have to wade in here.
What Scroggs has done is implement his implicit right to control this forum. Moderator does not mean "to me moderate". It means to be in charge.
What startles me is the fact that people do not stop to think about the value of what is being posted. Scroggs has completed a military flying career - encompassing a period in which he was a CFI of a UAS and therefore a God of Flying Instruction - only to go on to a household name airline to fly a 747.
AND YET. He finds the time to bite his tongue and provide reasoned argument and advice on something he finds naturally boring to complete strangers.
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Personally, do the degree which most interests you and therefore the one in which you will do best at. A 2:1 in Psychology is much better than a 2:2 in Aerodynamics is probably more useful in gaining a RHS in my opinion ( WWW BSc Psy...
)
Personally I say do not bother with higher education and spend less on learning a trade. This will leave you with more money for ATPL and provide a better more immediate, age and geography dependent fall back career should your airline collapse or you lose your licence...
The world is full of views. Only fools condemn those that are willing to share those. ( Socrates ).
Cheers,
WWW
What Scroggs has done is implement his implicit right to control this forum. Moderator does not mean "to me moderate". It means to be in charge.
What startles me is the fact that people do not stop to think about the value of what is being posted. Scroggs has completed a military flying career - encompassing a period in which he was a CFI of a UAS and therefore a God of Flying Instruction - only to go on to a household name airline to fly a 747.
AND YET. He finds the time to bite his tongue and provide reasoned argument and advice on something he finds naturally boring to complete strangers.
--------
Personally, do the degree which most interests you and therefore the one in which you will do best at. A 2:1 in Psychology is much better than a 2:2 in Aerodynamics is probably more useful in gaining a RHS in my opinion ( WWW BSc Psy...
)Personally I say do not bother with higher education and spend less on learning a trade. This will leave you with more money for ATPL and provide a better more immediate, age and geography dependent fall back career should your airline collapse or you lose your licence...
The world is full of views. Only fools condemn those that are willing to share those. ( Socrates ).
Cheers,
WWW
Whilst broadly I agree with you WWW, I nonetheless have reservations.
A broad education gives the recipient many options. The problem with a narrow and purely directed trade training (which is after all what an ATPL course is) is that if at any point you fall off, you have no options. Somebody with this degree, who falls off the flight training ladder is likely to have far more options than somebody who went straight into the improver route.
And of-course, some don't fall off, they climb down. They may decide part way that they'd rather move sideways into any of a dozen aviation related professions. This degree plus a partial ATPL will equip them well, the partial ATPL alone may not.
And equally at the other end, surely somebody with a relevent degree AND an ATPL is better equipped to go into management, become a training captain, etc. than somebody who has directed their energies at nothing other than the most narrow studies required to get their license?
For that matter, pilots have become Engineers (or the other way around) and this would put somebody in a good position to enter an Engineering degree or LAME course, whilst again an ATPL alone wouldn't.
I see little but good in it (notwithstanding my previous statement that this is certainly not an Engineering degree per ce).
G
A broad education gives the recipient many options. The problem with a narrow and purely directed trade training (which is after all what an ATPL course is) is that if at any point you fall off, you have no options. Somebody with this degree, who falls off the flight training ladder is likely to have far more options than somebody who went straight into the improver route.
And of-course, some don't fall off, they climb down. They may decide part way that they'd rather move sideways into any of a dozen aviation related professions. This degree plus a partial ATPL will equip them well, the partial ATPL alone may not.
And equally at the other end, surely somebody with a relevent degree AND an ATPL is better equipped to go into management, become a training captain, etc. than somebody who has directed their energies at nothing other than the most narrow studies required to get their license?
For that matter, pilots have become Engineers (or the other way around) and this would put somebody in a good position to enter an Engineering degree or LAME course, whilst again an ATPL alone wouldn't.
I see little but good in it (notwithstanding my previous statement that this is certainly not an Engineering degree per ce).
G
