View Poll Results: Should CAA ban HIDDEN COSTS OF FLYING?
Definately
63
80.77%
Definately Not
8
10.26%
Don't Care
7
8.97%
Voters: 78. This poll is closed
Please CAA-Its time to stop hidden costs
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Essex
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The job market is outisde of anyones remit - you can't blame the CAA or anyone else if theres no jobs.
However it would be very useful to see the combined stats for a the whole CPL/IR training process.
i.e x1 number of people sat the ATPL exams, of these, x2 passed, of these x3 got awarded a CPL of these x4 got awarded an IR (of which y passed first time) of these x5 are MCC and type rated.
The fact that my reading of the CAA stats seems to indicate that in 2002 / 3 and 4 about 800 odd CPLS were issued each year - of which 100-130 odd had IR's.
now 100 odd CPL / IR's each year seems at odds to the hundreds (thousands?) of people taking the exams? or am I reading this stuff wrong?
However it would be very useful to see the combined stats for a the whole CPL/IR training process.
i.e x1 number of people sat the ATPL exams, of these, x2 passed, of these x3 got awarded a CPL of these x4 got awarded an IR (of which y passed first time) of these x5 are MCC and type rated.
The fact that my reading of the CAA stats seems to indicate that in 2002 / 3 and 4 about 800 odd CPLS were issued each year - of which 100-130 odd had IR's.
now 100 odd CPL / IR's each year seems at odds to the hundreds (thousands?) of people taking the exams? or am I reading this stuff wrong?
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
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Robustness of Regulations
2003/4
16 PPLs got an Instrument Rating .... Awesome!
All they need now is to hammer that down to zero in 2004/5
and they will have abolished that type of aviation....
16 PPLs got an Instrument Rating .... Awesome!
All they need now is to hammer that down to zero in 2004/5
and they will have abolished that type of aviation....
Join Date: May 2005
Location: eu
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Those stats from the campaign are a fantastic bit of analysis!
I may be wrong, and usually am, but as far as I can see 30% of the uk's commercial helicopterists got their licence in 03-04. I suspect that may not be true.
Going back to the orignal point of the thread, flying is expensive, we know that. Presentation of prices is purely a marketing exercise by the school concerned. If you don't like how the school presents the information, draw your own conclusions and take your cash elsewhere.
However, having been at the coalface of a number of helicopter FTO's and registered facilities, I can assure you nobody's getting rich! It really is being for love not money.
That said, has anybody noticed that Alex's E-type appears to be getting shinier and shinier?('
(Only joking Alex - a fair price for an excellent product in my view!)
Best of luck with it folks.
Leonardo.
I may be wrong, and usually am, but as far as I can see 30% of the uk's commercial helicopterists got their licence in 03-04. I suspect that may not be true.
Going back to the orignal point of the thread, flying is expensive, we know that. Presentation of prices is purely a marketing exercise by the school concerned. If you don't like how the school presents the information, draw your own conclusions and take your cash elsewhere.
However, having been at the coalface of a number of helicopter FTO's and registered facilities, I can assure you nobody's getting rich! It really is being for love not money.
That said, has anybody noticed that Alex's E-type appears to be getting shinier and shinier?('
(Only joking Alex - a fair price for an excellent product in my view!)
Best of luck with it folks.
Leonardo.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 65
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Well, I used to have a (blush) Stag but I rolled it into a ditch on Romney Marsh back in 1992. I bought the E-type with the insurance money from a bloke in Catford. I've spent so much restoring it over the last 13 years I couldn't bear to be parted from it, unless you're putting in an offer?
Join Date: Aug 1999
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Moving back to the original topic, i.e. hidden costs in advertised rates.
I used to work in the GA flying training world, (actually, for the same company as Alex for a while). Like many small companies, most of us had an element of 'jack of all trades' about our duties, and so I often found myself helping out a bit with sales.
And here is the harsh reality - people are extremely influenced by the visible price tag.
The company I worked for eventually went bust, though I had moved on to the airlines by then, and many people have cast aspersions regarding the ethics of the owners. Thats ancient history now, so no point in raking it over, but what I will say is this.
We used to quote an hourly rate for airborne time, inclusive of VAT and all landing fees. The problem is, this comes out to be quite a large number. Its a while back now (15 years) so I can't claim these figures are accurate, but it was something like UKP 135 for an hour in a PA-28.
Meanwhile the main competitors were quoting something like maybe UKP 90 per hour for commercial GFT training.
Surprise surprise, we really struggled to sell our courses. In spite of the fact that our competitors where charging blocks times (on GFT profiles taxy time, with all the dotting of I's and crossing of T's being quite significant), were not including VAT, and not including landing fees.
So lets look at a typical GFT profile - lets say 2 hours airborne (including a few circuits) plus 25 mins on the ground (15 for taxy/checks etc, 5 to taxy in, and perhaps an average of 5 minutes at the holding point).
Us: 2x135 = UKP 270 for the sortie, all up.
Competitor: 2.42x90 = UKP 218
plus VAT (was it 17.5 % then?, hmm, I can't remember) = UKP 38
plus perhaps 3 x UKP 5 landing fee = UKP 15
grand total for sortie = approx UKP 270.
In otherwords, the real cost of our training was pretty similar to the competitiors.
However, put this in the context of self improvers used to paying perhaps UKP 65 for an hours PPL instruction. or maybe UKP 20 to hire the same aircraft in the USA.
Not surprisingly, people would wear the idea that commercial traing might cost them a bit more money, but well over a hundred pounds per hour?
Take a first approximation of costings. OK, I want to do my BCPL which requires 15 hours training.
15x135 = 2025
versus
15x90 = 1350
Is it any surprise many people were not even bothering to get in touch? We did a lot of market research and eventually the penny dropped that we had a substantial reputation as being extremely expensive. As you can see, that was not justified. What we should have had, (in this area at least!) was a rock solid reputation for honest pricing, instead it was costing us dear.
Reluctantly, the decision was made that the students deserved to be able to compare like for like in their costings, so we started quoting VATless block rates instead, on the basis that if someone called us, we would be able to explain the various additional charges, but if they were never calling us we would never be able to compete.
And of course, the same thing continues in all areas of commerce. You've only got to look at airline ticket prices, and reputations for selling 'cheap' versus 'over priced' air travel.
The bottom line is that this is consumer driven. Collectively, we only have ourselves to blame.
CPB
I used to work in the GA flying training world, (actually, for the same company as Alex for a while). Like many small companies, most of us had an element of 'jack of all trades' about our duties, and so I often found myself helping out a bit with sales.
And here is the harsh reality - people are extremely influenced by the visible price tag.
The company I worked for eventually went bust, though I had moved on to the airlines by then, and many people have cast aspersions regarding the ethics of the owners. Thats ancient history now, so no point in raking it over, but what I will say is this.
We used to quote an hourly rate for airborne time, inclusive of VAT and all landing fees. The problem is, this comes out to be quite a large number. Its a while back now (15 years) so I can't claim these figures are accurate, but it was something like UKP 135 for an hour in a PA-28.
Meanwhile the main competitors were quoting something like maybe UKP 90 per hour for commercial GFT training.
Surprise surprise, we really struggled to sell our courses. In spite of the fact that our competitors where charging blocks times (on GFT profiles taxy time, with all the dotting of I's and crossing of T's being quite significant), were not including VAT, and not including landing fees.
So lets look at a typical GFT profile - lets say 2 hours airborne (including a few circuits) plus 25 mins on the ground (15 for taxy/checks etc, 5 to taxy in, and perhaps an average of 5 minutes at the holding point).
Us: 2x135 = UKP 270 for the sortie, all up.
Competitor: 2.42x90 = UKP 218
plus VAT (was it 17.5 % then?, hmm, I can't remember) = UKP 38
plus perhaps 3 x UKP 5 landing fee = UKP 15
grand total for sortie = approx UKP 270.
In otherwords, the real cost of our training was pretty similar to the competitiors.
However, put this in the context of self improvers used to paying perhaps UKP 65 for an hours PPL instruction. or maybe UKP 20 to hire the same aircraft in the USA.
Not surprisingly, people would wear the idea that commercial traing might cost them a bit more money, but well over a hundred pounds per hour?
Take a first approximation of costings. OK, I want to do my BCPL which requires 15 hours training.
15x135 = 2025
versus
15x90 = 1350
Is it any surprise many people were not even bothering to get in touch? We did a lot of market research and eventually the penny dropped that we had a substantial reputation as being extremely expensive. As you can see, that was not justified. What we should have had, (in this area at least!) was a rock solid reputation for honest pricing, instead it was costing us dear.
Reluctantly, the decision was made that the students deserved to be able to compare like for like in their costings, so we started quoting VATless block rates instead, on the basis that if someone called us, we would be able to explain the various additional charges, but if they were never calling us we would never be able to compete.
And of course, the same thing continues in all areas of commerce. You've only got to look at airline ticket prices, and reputations for selling 'cheap' versus 'over priced' air travel.
The bottom line is that this is consumer driven. Collectively, we only have ourselves to blame.
CPB
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: England
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Well, there is lots of different combinations, with or without VAT, airborne or block, with or without landing fees, with or without instructor, different aircraft types etc. So a full listing of all possible charges, and enough info about course contents and timing to allow someone to make a sensible budget, would probably take several pages to advertise.
Essentially, the point of an advert is to get someone to contact you. At which point:
- a reputable FTO will advise you in detail about all the variables - not just costs but aircraft, instructor and examiner availability, local accommodation, etc to help you come up with a realistic timescale and budget for the course in toto.
- its down to the customer to talk to several FTOs to get a sensible comparison.
CPB
Essentially, the point of an advert is to get someone to contact you. At which point:
- a reputable FTO will advise you in detail about all the variables - not just costs but aircraft, instructor and examiner availability, local accommodation, etc to help you come up with a realistic timescale and budget for the course in toto.
- its down to the customer to talk to several FTOs to get a sensible comparison.
CPB
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Under the clag EGKA
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I had a bloody good meal last night in an expensive restaurant. Outside there was a printed menu which told me pretty well what everything sosts including VAT. It stated that there was a 10% service charge added. I believe that this is a legal requirement throughout the EU. I can't see any problem with posting a menu on the door of the flying club.
